Volume 28: Number 200
Thu, 06 Oct 2011
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:38:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] day trading
On 5/10/2011 6:34 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> much of day trading is based on speculation (not on actual
> fundamentals of companies, which, if interpreted as i under
> stand it, would ffall under the category possibly of njot binyan
> olam
Day traders who rely on pure speculation won't be at it for long. Those
who make a profit are obviously relying on real analysis, even if they
can't explain how they do it; therefore they are productive.
--
Zev Sero If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
return to all the places that have been given to them.
- Yitzchak Rabin
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:44:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] national flag???
On 5/10/2011 2:52 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> Question was there a national flag for ancient bnei yisrael? if so,
> what did it consist of, if so, is the current israeli flag, neged hatorah
> [chukas hagoyim??]
Flags were invented in the early 2nd millennium CE. They did not exist
in Biblical times, or in Chazal's. I don't know when standards were
invented; the medrash about the tribes' standards may be historical for
all I know, but it wouldn't shock me if it weren't.
--
Zev Sero If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
return to all the places that have been given to them.
- Yitzchak Rabin
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 21:14:39 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] national flag???
On 10/5/2011 3:44 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 5/10/2011 2:52 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
>> Question was there a national flag for ancient bnei yisrael? if so,
>> what did it consist of, if so, is the current israeli flag, neged
>> hatorah
>> [chukas hagoyim??]
>
> Flags were invented in the early 2nd millennium CE. They did not exist
> in Biblical times, or in Chazal's. I don't know when standards were
> invented; the medrash about the tribes' standards may be historical for
> all I know, but it wouldn't shock me if it weren't.
As I understand it, the word "nes" means pretty much what a flag is.
Lisa
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 05:10:41 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] malachim & mistakes
R' Harvey Benton asked:
> malachim making mistakes???
>
> people think that maybe their marriages don't work out because
> the malach" who either named them, or set up their zivug (didn't
> hear correctly)
>
> how is this possible?
I've always believed that it is possible for a person to NOT marry the
zivug named by the malach. A simple proof of this is that there are people
who never get married at all. Therefore, even those who do get married
might be marrying the wrong person. A belief or hope that this *is* the
right person does make for a nice vort for a Sheva Brachos, but that's as
far as it goes.
Alternatively: Let's suppose the two people named by the malach DID marry
each other. How does that force them to live happily ever after? Isn't it
possible for one (or both) of them to mess up in a manner which causes the
marriage to fall apart?
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 05:03:06 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Saying selichos after Shacharis
R' Marty Bluke asked:
> I was thinking of doing the following, sleeping a little later
> and getting up to daven vasikin (starting around 5:30), and then
> after shacharis at vasikin go to a later minyan which is just
> starting to say selichos around 6:15 and just say selichos.
>
> Does anyone see any halachic issues with this?
Hilchos Rosh Hashana begins with the Mechaber 581:1 writing: "Nohagim lakum
b'ashmores lomar selichos v'tachanunim... -- The custom is to get up early
to say selichos and prayers..."
I concede that "ashmores" probably has a more specific meaning than merely
"early". For example, the Mishna Berura (in his introduction to that siman)
seems to say that it refers to the end of the night.
I have always understood it to mean that at the very least, at this time of
year, one gets up earlier than usual to say these special prayers. And
therefore, it seems to me that saying these prayers late at night, or after
shacharis, or even at the same time as one normally begins shacharis,
misses the whole point of saying them at all.
There are those who would argue with what I just wrote. They would point
out that the "whole point" of saying these prayers is to invoke the Yud
Gimel Midos at a time which is an Ays Ratzon and thus more likely to
influence Hashem to be merciful. I am emphatically NOT DISAGREEING with
that. All I'm saying is that if one is not aiming for the Ays Ratzon, he
should at least aim to say selichos at a time which at least LOOKS like the
Ays Ratzon.
But that's just me.
Now, as for the question, "Does anyone see any halachic issues with this?",
I guess that would depend on how you're defining "halachic". Selichos is,
after all, and in the words of the Mechaber I quoted above, "just" a
minhag, not a halacha.
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Penny Stock Jumping 3000%
Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4e8d36b0e1e5fa88db8st01vuc
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: David Riceman <drice...@optimum.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 21:17:41 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Beis Shammai vs Beis Hillel, general approaches
RMB:
> A few sugyos that came up in quick succession in the Y-mi made me
> think of what might be yet another approach to finding a leshitasam to
> unify all -- or at least the vast majority -- of machloqesin between
> batei Hillel veShammai.
See Rabbi Kasher's book "Mefaneah Zephunoth" chapter 1:3 pp. 54-55.
David Riceman
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 07:30:13 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] national flag???
On 5/10/2011 10:14 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> As I understand it, the word "nes" means pretty much what a flag is.
It's probably something that serves the same purpose for which flags were
invented, but it can't mean a flag, unless they're a technology that was
lost and rediscovered. Chazal seem to have thought it meant a standard,
which was an invention known in their day, but perhaps not in David's; I
don't know.
--
Zev Sero If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
return to all the places that have been given to them.
- Yitzchak Rabin
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 12:56:23 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] malachim & mistakes
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 7:10 AM, kennethgmil...@juno.com <
kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:
> R' Harvey Benton asked:
>
> > malachim making mistakes???
> >
> > people think that maybe their marriages don't work out because
> > the malach" who either named them, or set up their zivug (didn't
> > hear correctly)
> >
> > how is this possible?
>
> I've always believed that it is possible for a person to NOT marry the
> zivug named by the malach.
In parshat Ki Teitzei, it says that if a man is engaged but not yet married
to a women, he doesn't have to go to war, lest someone else come and take
her. If all zivuggim are decreed at birth, why do we care about this? This
issue is discussed by one of the peirushim there, but I can't remember who.
A few answers were given, one of which was that the man who was decreed to
the woman would have to wait for the other man to die/divorce her.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20111006/3e1884b9/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:16:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] national flag???
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 07:30:13AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 5/10/2011 10:14 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> As I understand it, the word "nes" means pretty much what a flag is.
> It's probably something that serves the same purpose for which flags were
> invented, but it can't mean a flag, unless they're a technology that was
> lost and rediscovered. Chazal seem to have thought it meant a standard...
Vayomer H' el Mosheh,
"Asei lekha saraf, vesim oso al neis..."
Vaya'as Moshe nechash nechoshes,
vaysimeihu al haneis...
-Bamidbar 21:8,9
So, a neis is a pole on which Moshe put the nechash nechoshes, which
combined make what certainly sounds like a standard of the sort used by
the Roman Army.
Sheish beriqmah miMitzrayim hayah mifraseikh
lihyos lekha leneis;
tekheiles ve'argaman mei'iyaei Elishah
hayah machseikh.
-Yechezqeil 27:7
But here we see fine sails served as Tzor's neis. Doesn't this, combined
with Bamidbar, argue for a meaning relating to cloth on a pole?
GCT!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:41:09 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] day trading
On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 03:34:24PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: much of day trading is based on speculation (not on actual
: fundamentals of companies,? which, if interpreted as i under
: stand it, would ffall under the category possibly of? njot binyan
: olam
It is permissable to play dice for a living, although such a person
is disqualified from eidus. (It's not even clear to me that the
disqualification is a value judgment; it could simply be that professional
gamblers don't understand the value of money well enough to testify
in monetary cases.) So even if day trading were totally unproductive,
one could't say it was outright prohibited.
My current job is to write software for a hedge fund, trying to get
trades from the trader's algorithm to the exchange in as few microseconds
as possible.
Useful benefit 1: They're making profit for other people, the investors,
more than for themselves. This kind of trading is also used by people
who enable banks to pay out interest, who manage retirement money,
etc... Not just people who can afford to put money into hedge funds gain,
the "little guy" directly benefits as well.
But let's say we're talking about someone day trading or program trading
his own money...
I was brought into this industry because of my knowledge of the kind of
filtering used to remove hiss from recordings. He figured that if he could
do the same in stock prices, or in relative value between two different
stocks (eg Microsoft vs Intel), he would know what's the "noise" around
where the price ought to be, and what is more likely to be real shift.
This is a kind of arbitrage trading -- betting that a gap between trade
price and what the price ought to be will close. So, if Microsoft drifts
low compared to some expectation beased on related businesses, it might
be a good time to buy Microsoft. At least, more likely than not. Do that
tens of thousands of times a day, and you'll win enough more bets than
not so as to make real money.
And when more people see this gap, demand goes up, until the price
returns to where it ought to be.
So why do they need to put the computer in the same building as the
exchange and hire a team of people like me to get ever faster than
the competition? Because as more people look for these arbitrage
opportunities, the price is corrected faster and faster. Someone else
is more and more likely to pick up the bad pricing before it closes.
Useful benefit 2: Day traders keep stock pricing more meaningful, because
they, program and other arbitrage traders force gaps between price and
value to close up.
And a better stock market means more people buying the shares that fund
the companies to do real work.
Then of course there is useful benefit 3: I and the rest of the support
staff can get paychecks only because of their activity.
What may be more halachically problematic is futures trading, when you
do a trade against another Jew. Not very common, as most futures trades
are exchange traded, with no one specific counterparty assigned to you
until expiry. But if it were to come up, any increase in value from
the time you buy the future until expiry would be ribis. See QSA 65:11
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2009/09/qsa-65-11.shtml>
What would come up more commonly and is straightforward ribis is a
corporate bond on a Jewishly-owned coporation. In fact, the difference
between bond coupons and stock dividends parallels that between ribis
and heter isqa.
GCT!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The waste of time is the most extravagant
mi...@aishdas.org of all expense.
http://www.aishdas.org -Theophrastus
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: Lampel <zvilam...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:32:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Brisker Chumeros and Shammuti Chumeros
> AIUI, the takana of doing all three versions is not out of concern
> that only one of them is right, but just the opposite, to show that
> they're*all* right, and that those who do any one of them are yotze.
> (I don't remember the source for this; something in the back of my mind
> seems to be faintly whispering "Rav Hai Gaon".)
Rambam (Hilchos Shofar 3:2) says the first way, and yes, Rav Hai Gaon
had said the second way (Teshuvos), followed by Rabbeynu Nissim on Ryf,
Rosh Hashonna 34a. The Ritva also offers an explanation that does not
resort, as the Rambam does, to saying that the original authentic way of
shofar-blowing was lost.
Zvi Lampel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20111006/ac46b909/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 12
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:56:24 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] day trading
On 6/10/2011 9:41 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> What would come up more commonly and is straightforward ribis is a
> corporate bond on a Jewishly-owned coporation. In fact, the difference
> between bond coupons and stock dividends parallels that between ribis
> and heter isqa.
You can solve this by selling the bonds just before the interest payment
is due, or else by only investing in derivatives based on the bond itself.
QSA says there's no issur ribis in the secondary market on shtaros, and
describes a simple way to structure a "loan" to take advantage of this:
1. Reuven and Levi write cheques to each other, for $11K each, each
dated a year from now. No problem here, because the two cheques are of
equal value and cancel each other out.
2. Reuven sells Levi's cheque to Shimon for $10K, reflecting its current
value.
3. Shimon then turns to Levi and swaps his cheque for Reuven's; no
problem since they're of exactly equal value. Levi tears his cheque up
and walks away; Shimon is now holding Reuven's postdated cheque for $11K,
which he deposits when it falls due, thus earning 10% on his investment.
It seems to me that the same principle can be trivially applied to bonds.
--
Zev Sero If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
return to all the places that have been given to them.
- Yitzchak Rabin
Go to top.
Message: 13
From: Yonatan Kaganoff <ykagan...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:55:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Brisker Chumeros and Shammuti Chumeros
I think that one should distinguish the practice of blowing the shofar after
davening is over and other chumrot. Most agree that this is beyond even a
chumra and is more like a hanhaga tovah, which shows our love of the mitzvah
of Shofar.
If these different sounds were introduced into the regular Rosh HaShanah
prayer service it would be on a different level.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20111006/e3d16ae9/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 14
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 10:08:18 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] national flag???
On 6/10/2011 9:16 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Sheish beriqmah miMitzrayim hayah mifraseikh
> lihyos lekha leneis;
> tekheiles ve'argaman mei'iyaei Elishah
> hayah machseikh.
> -Yechezqeil 27:7
>
> But here we see fine sails served as Tzor's neis. Doesn't this, combined
> with Bamidbar, argue for a meaning relating to cloth on a pole?
It certainly sounds like it. Though no mention of a device; it sounds
to me more like the "neis" is the fineness of the sailcloth itself, by
which Tzor's ships can be recognised. Then again, "rikmah" may imply
a device after all, which would imply that the flag was re-invented by
the medieval Europeans, rather than being their original idea.
--
Zev Sero If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
return to all the places that have been given to them.
- Yitzchak Rabin
Go to top.
Message: 15
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:24:06 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] national flag???
On 10/6/2011 6:30 AM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 5/10/2011 10:14 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> As I understand it, the word "nes" means pretty much what a flag is.
>
> It's probably something that serves the same purpose for which flags were
> invented, but it can't mean a flag, unless they're a technology that was
> lost and rediscovered. Chazal seem to have thought it meant a standard,
> which was an invention known in their day, but perhaps not in David's; I
> don't know.
I'm not sure why you're so convinced that flags didn't exist at the
time. I mean, I've heard arguments that say Pharaoh couldn't have had
horses and chariots because they hadn't been invented yet. That camels
hadn't been domesticated at the time of Avraham Avinu. But those are
only generalizations. There could have been some domestication of
camels that wasn't widespread. And there could have been flags that
weren't a common thing either. How do you prove a negative, after all?
Lisa
Go to top.
Message: 16
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 10:20:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Brisker Chumeros and Shammuti Chumeros
On 6/10/2011 9:55 AM, Yonatan Kaganoff wrote:
> I think that one should distinguish the practice of blowing the shofar
> after davening is over and other chumrot. Most agree that this is
> beyond even a chumra and is more like a hanhaga tovah, which shows our
> love of the mitzvah of Shofar.
I thought blowing the shofar after davening was to confuse the Satan;
just when he thought it was safe to come back, here they are blowing again!
--
Zev Sero If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
return to all the places that have been given to them.
- Yitzchak Rabin
Go to top.
Message: 17
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 10:29:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] national flag???
On 6/10/2011 10:24 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I'm not sure why you're so convinced that flags didn't exist at the
> time. I mean, I've heard arguments that say Pharaoh couldn't have had
> horses and chariots because they hadn't been invented yet. That
> camels hadn't been domesticated at the time of Avraham Avinu. But
> those are only generalizations. There could have been some
> domestication of camels that wasn't widespread. And there could have
> been flags that weren't a common thing either. How do you prove a
> negative, after all?
It's possible. But AFAIK flags were unknown in Chazal's day, or at any
time in the 1st millennium CE. They were invented, together with modern
heraldry, in the early 2nd millennium. So if they existed in Biblical
times they were then forgotten and reinvented. Which is possible. And
the pasuk RMB quoted from Yechezkel seems to suggest such a thing.
--
Zev Sero If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
return to all the places that have been given to them.
- Yitzchak Rabin
Go to top.
Message: 18
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 12:00:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] national flag???
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 09:24:06AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> That camels
> hadn't been domesticated at the time of Avraham Avinu.
Tangent: As Lisa notes, Bible Critics have made that claim, that this
piece of the story is an anachronism. Archeology since showed, though,
that in Egypt they were already domesticated. And note that of the
three "she is my sister" stories -- Avraham and Avimelekh, Avraham
and Par'o, Yitzchaq and Avimelekh -- it is only the one where they go
to Mitzrayim where they are described as returning with camels. So,
rather than being anachronistic, there is detail here that wouldn't have
been known centuries later, and a differentiation between similar event
that indicates they weren't variants of a single legend (as the critics
claim).
This also explains how Rivqa's family recognized the camels as Avraham's
(Bereishis 24:10, c.f. Rashi). We don't need to assume, as Rashi does,
that she saw they were muzzled. Camels from Canaan were altogether a
rarity -- how else would Eliezer have come to have any to give?
(Besheim omro: I heard this from my rebbe-chaver, R' Jack Love.)
GCT!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - George Elliot
Go to top.
Message: 19
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 10:50:33 -0700
Subject: [Avodah] losing 'nishba' status
http://reformjudaismmag.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=2854
discussion on emes v'emunah blog on this article, and the relevant
question is--- how much knowledge/practice is enough to make one lose
tinok shenishba status, and therefore incur liability for ones
actions....
the most machmir position i ever heard was a rov who said in
this era [this was before internet yet] so much jewish info is
available , no one should get a presumption of 'ignorance of the
law'....
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20111006/97cf9d6e/attachment.htm>
------------------------------
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
End of Avodah Digest, Vol 28, Issue 200
***************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."