Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 243

Tue, 06 Dec 2011

• 1. The Rosh's attempt to change the minhag on Tal Umatar (Zev Sero)
• 2. A woman as a sheliha to mekadesh a bride? (Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer)
• 3. Halachic ramifications of vision strength (from areivim) (Saul Mashbaum)
• 4. Re: Halachic ramifications of vision strength (from areivim) (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Halachic ramifications of vision strength (from areivim) (harchinam)
• 6. Rav Moshe Shternbuch: On Teaching Children Tanach (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Vegetable Peeler (Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer)
• 8. Re: Halachic Policy Guidelines of the Kashrus Authority ofAustralia (Chana Luntz)
• 9. Re: Halachic Policy Guidelines of the Kashrus Authority of Australia (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 10. Re: Rav Moshe Shternbuch: On Teaching Children Tanach (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Rav Moshe Shternbuch: On Teaching Children Tanach (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 12. Halachic guidelines for kashrut (Harry Weiss)
• 13. Kol Isha (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 14. Re: Halachic guidelines for kashrut (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Kol Isha (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Rav Moshe Shternbuch: On Teaching Children Tanach (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Kol Isha (Zev Sero)
• 18. Re: Rav Moshe Shternbuch: On Teaching Children Tanach (Lisa Liel)

The full story is in Teshuvos Harosh 4:10

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1961&;pgnum=28
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1961&;pgnum=29


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

Has anyone seen a discussion on whether a man can appoint a woman as a shaliah to mekadesh a bride on his behalf?  

[The point here is that a woman can't be mekadesh a woman, but that's
because kiddushin are not tofsin - not because the ma'aseh kinyan was
improper. However, can she do the ma'aseh kinyan  as the sheliha of a man,
where kiddushin are tofsin?   Or am I just revealing my amaratzut?]

Aryeh

--------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail (office): Aryeh.Fri...@biu.ac.il or Fri...@biu.ac.il

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The follwing is based on a discussion on Areivim about visible bugs in
brussel sprouts.

RMB
> One of my suggested resolutions is that the definition of "visible bug"
> actually changes with improvements in lighting and eye health. That
> whatever excludes magnification doesn't exclude changes we can make to
> the context that further empowers naked human senses.

R'n CL:
> I find this suggestion difficult.
<snip>
> ....the boundary is very fuzzy.  Some people even in those days
> had better eyesight than others.  Does it vary from person to person?  Can
> Rachel eat a fruit checked by Rachel, but not by Leah, and does Leah have to
> check that Rachel has at least as good eyesight as she does before she eats
> in her house?  What about husband and wife?

MYG:
> .... I do have one situation in which the halachah changes based
> on vision - the Biur Halachah in Siman 79 (DH Oy SheHu Suma) says that a
> person has to distance himself from Tzoah when saying Shema at night based
> on how well he sees during the day. One who sees farther will have to make
> sure he's farther away.

Many dinim are dependent on vision, and one may well inquire exactly
whose vision we are talking about in determining the halacha.

I'll give some examples from the mechaber in SA OCh:

58:1 The time of Kriat Shma in the morning is from the time one is able
to recognize a slight acquaintance from the distance of 4 amot.

293:2 One should be careful not to do m'lacha Saturday night until 3
small stars are seen (ie, can be seen SM).

688:2 [The megilla is read on the 15th] also in villages which are seen
(ie, can be seen SM) from walled cities.

The first case seems to be according to the individual, based on each
person's eyesight. Thus, one could have a situation in which at a certain
time,a sharp-eyed person could say Kriat Shma, while his dim-sighted
friend could not.

In the second two cases, the mechaber uses the passive voice, and we have
to determine if we are talking about things see-able by each individual
(the halacha differing from person to person) or if the halacha applies
to everyone simultaneously, based on average vision, the best vision,
or the weakest normal vision.

Similarly, the poskim say that the requirement for square tefillin
does not exclude tefillin which are not square based on microscopic
measurement; rather, tefillin which appear square based on examination
by normal eyesight are kosher. Here too, if one person's eyesight is
better that another's, does that mean that the same set of tefillin
could be kosher for one person, and pasul for another? Or, perhaps,
if the tefillin are square according to average vision, they are kosher
for everyone.

One last case, outside of the SA: Maaser sheni may be eaten outside of
Yerushalayim in places from which Yerushalayim can be seen. Seen by whom?
The individual eating the maaser sheni? Most people? Perhaps maaser sheni
may be eaten even in places from which only people with very good vision
can see Yerushalayim, or perhaps only from places which even people with
poor vision can see Yerushalayim.

Tzarich iyyun.

Saul Mashbaum

On 6/12/2011 2:26 AM, Saul Mashbaum wrote:
> 293:2 One should be careful not to do m'lacha Saturday night until 3
> small stars are seen (ie, can be seen SM).

Ordinary stars, not small ones.  But one must know which stars count
as "ordinary", which is why this siman is not given to everybody, and
why we were given the shiurim in units of how far one could walk (at
the equinox in EY).    And this shiur is based on a standard walker's
daily distance divided equally over the day, not on the state of the
individual's legs or on how much ground one could cover with a sudden
burst of energy.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

I am not a posek nor the son of a posek :-), but it would seem logical to
me based on my understanding that many things, such as "can see
Yerushalayim" or "can see 3 stars" would be understood to be with normal
eyesight, but if we are alone and there is no one to ask, no watches or
clocks, and we must rely on what we can see it would go by what we
personally can see.

As far as bugs go, I would have to say that two things would seem logical
to me: That bugs that can be seen by someone with normal vision are assur
and that if you are standing alone in your house and you look really,
really well and hold a date [or whatever] up to the light and your vision
is not as good as it could be and you might miss a bug that your neighbor
could have seen [but he wasn't around to ask] that you would be able to eat
it b'dieved because I can't imagine that we are required to starve unless
we have 20/20 vision.

*** Rena


On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 09:26, Saul Mashbaum <saul.mashb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The follwing is based on a discussion on Areivim about visible bugs in
> brussel sprouts....
>
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 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=437

The minhag in today's Yeshivos is not to teach Tanach before learning 
Gemara. Rav Moshe Shternbuch (2:457) explains that learning Tanach 
requires even deeper understanding than learning Gemara. A Mekor for 
this is Rashi in Brachos (28a) who says that one should stay away 
from too much Tanach.

The danger he says is that people do not realize this. He quotes the 
Chasam Sofer who says that this was the tragedy of translating the 
Torah to Greek. Since then, people were free to learn Tanach with 
literal translation without being taught the correct interpretation 
through kabalas avoseinu.

This is not to say that Tanach is blacklisted, says Rav Shternbuch. 
One who has learned a great deal of gemara and poskim and has 
acquired a great deal of Yiras Hashem is required to learn all of 
Tanach and must know it thoroughly.(See also 
<http://revach.net/article.php?id=4351>Rav Vosner's Tshuva on this subject)

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I must admit that I never understood why there should ever be a problem with 
a peelr, since the peeler always remove the klipa (peel) with Ochel (food) - 
hence the peeler NEVER does borer.
--------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail (office): Aryeh.Fri...@biu.ac.il or Fri...@biu.ac.il

 I wrote:
> : But this is all very different to the nine shops case, where we do
> have,
> : somewhere in there, a cheftza that is, according to everybody assur,
> we just
> : don't know which, and I do not see how can extrapolate from the case
> under
> : discussion vis a vis hashgacha to the case of the nine shops.

And RMB replied:

> 9 chanuyos (the non-qavua instance) is bitul berov. It's not a mixture
> but the words "bitul" and even "taaroves" are still involved. We could
> make a second chiluq between bitulim -- maybe even if you say that
> bitul in a mixture avoids timtum haleiv, that bitul beruba de'iqah leqaman
> does not.

Sorry, I was being a bit imprecise in explaining the distinction - but we do
know there to be a distinction.  The Shulchan Aruch in Yoreh Deah siman
109:1 while discussing a case of bitul b'rov of three pieces that got mixed
states that while eating each piece individually is fine, one person should
not eat all three at once, and brings as a yesh omrim that one person should
not eat all three even zeh achar zeh (the position the Rema holds to
l'chatchila).  No such suggestion is made where we are dealing with bitul in
a mixture where the identity of the issur is lost. The forms of bittul being
relied on when dealing with non Jewish manufacturing and approved products
is almost certainly of the latter case.  Thus in the first case it would
seem relatively mainstream to say that on some level the piece hasn't
entirely lost its issur quality, while with the mixture it has.  Where the 9
chanuyos fit into this I don't know, but to jump from that case to the case
of a mixture where the identity of the issur has disappeared and which would
now seem to have another identity entirely seemed to me to be unwarranted.

> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha

Regards

Chana

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> 9 chanuyos (the non-qavua instance) is bitul berov. It's not a
> mixture but the words "bitul" and even "taaroves" are still
> involved. We could make a second chiluq between bitulim -- maybe
> even if you say that bitul in a mixture avoids timtum haleiv,
> that bitul beruba de'iqah leqaman does not.

I certainly agree that the two cases are not identical. In one case, the
issur has been diluted to the point where it can be ignored, and in the
other, the Torah allow us to gamble, wagering on the most probable
identity.

Phrased in these terms, I think what RMB is suggesting is that in a
taaroves, the timtum is negligible, but in the 9 chanuyos, does one really
want to gamble, given that there is a possibility that this piece is 100%
treif? -- But if so, I would seriously ask the question in the reverse: If
one eats the piece of non-qavua he has a 90% chance of eating no timtum
whatsoever, but if he eats the taaroves he will most certainly consume a
miniscule amount of timtum.

"As their faces differ, so do their personalities," and I can easily see where varying people might worry about either case more or less than the other.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4ede167e1ac3681d5e8st06vuc

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 07:32:26AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://revach.net/article.php?id=437
>
> The minhag in today's Yeshivos is not to teach Tanach before learning  
> Gemara. Rav Moshe Shternbuch (2:457) explains that learning Tanach  
> requires even deeper understanding than learning Gemara. A Mekor for  
> this is Rashi in Brachos (28a) who says that one should stay away from 
> too much Tanach.

Yes but... There is an explicit mishnah that expects a 5 yr investment
in Tanakh before starting mishnah (halakhah pesuqah), and another 5
before gemara. How does RMS explain not following a mishnah in Avos?

I do't mean lemaaseh -- not following a mishnah, especially one in Avos,
is unsurprising. I mean that RMS is giving advice based on something
R' Yehudah ben Teima also most have realized. /Some/ explanation as to
why we need different priorities than chinukh in the days of the tannaim
did ought to be given. And for4 all I know, was... Revach.net doesn't
quote the whole teshuvah, and I don't own a copy to be able to look up
2:457 myself.

RDE? Could you please help?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org         - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 12/06/2011 07:32, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://revach.net/article.php?id=437
>
> [...]
> The danger he says is that people do not realize this. He quotes the
> Chasam Sofer who says that this was the tragedy of translating the Torah
> to Greek. Since then, people were free to learn Tanach with literal
> translation without being taught the correct interpretation through
> kabalas avoseinu.
>

That is one approach. On the other hand you have examples of original 
approaches to Tanach, in which category I would place Rambam, RSRH, and 
the Chief Rabbi, just to begin naming names. RSRH also advocates 
strongly for Navi to build the core of one's spiritual life, IIRC. I 
believe relevant material is found in the Talmud Torah chapter of Horeb, 
which I do not have to hand.

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer

> From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
> I note that at www.oukosher.org/index.php/learn/faq  it says, "If you
> can't find a Kosher substitute, consult your local learned Orthodox
> Rabbi for other suggestions.  Am I to deduce from this that there are
> local O rabbis who are not learned?  >:-}
>
You may have asked the question in jest, but unfortunately it is a
problem.   Unfortunately there are institutions that give semicha to
people whose knowledge leaves much to be desired.  You will see Rabbis
that within a few years after joining a BT yeshiva, will end up with
semicha.

We had a Rabbi who could barely read Hebrew and needed seforim with
English translations.   When someone spoke to the RY who gave him semicha,
the word was he is going to Sacramento, who will know the difference?

Any thoughts?

Question: On September 5, 2011, an IDF entertainment troupe performed at an
official military event focusing on Operation Cast Lead at Bahad Ehad, the
officers' training base in the Negev. When a female soldier began to sing
solo, nine observant Israeli officer cadets got up and left; they said that
it was forbidden for them to listen to women singing. Their Regiment
Commander Uzi Kliegler ran after them and ordered them to return to the
ceremony. "Anyone refusing [this] order will be dismissed from the course."
In the end, four cadets refused to return to the hall and were dismissed
from the officers' training course while five were allowed to continue the
course after convincing the committee that the move had not been
preplanned. It should be noted that a considerable number of the officers'
course cadets are observant and most of them did not walk out.
 
Subsequently, various Orthodox rabbis were quoted in the media as being for
or against their action. The Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi of Israel Yonah Metzger
issued a formal responsum on September 25th justifying their actions and
urging the army to arrange that only men should sing at military events
where many observant men are present. Is it really forbidden for Jewish men
to listen to women singing? Was there any halakhic justification for the
soldiers to walk out?
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On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 12:17:17PM -0500, Harry Weiss wrote:
:> From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
:> I note that at www.oukosher.org/index.php/learn/faq  it says, "If you
:> can't find a Kosher substitute, consult your local learned Orthodox
:> Rabbi for other suggestions...

: You may have asked the question in jest, but unfortunately it is a
: problem.   Unfortunately there are institutions that give semicha to
: people whose knowledge leaves much to be desired.  You will see Rabbis
: that within a few years after joining a BT yeshiva, will end up with
: semicha.

These are typically Rav uManhig, not Yoreh Yoreh. If you want to call that
"semichah" or not is a language issue.

In any case, it's also true that the local Y"Y musmach may also not have
dealt with enough hands-on cases to translate all the theory he learned
to lemaaseh questions. Knowing the meqoros doesn't mean having enough
exposure to contemporary and near-contemporary shu"t to know the range
of shitos about what we actually do.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 12:00:52PM -0500, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: Is it really forbidden for Jewish men to listen to women singing? Was
: there any halakhic justification for the soldiers to walk out?

Of course it is assur; why do you think the idiom "qol ishah" exists?
There are shitos that are lenient based on trei qolei lo mishtamaei, or
if the song can be taken as words of tefillah. But in the case you site,
a woman's solo would be prohibited.

The only question would be whether the need for the army to have a strong
chain of command, ie piquach nefesh, is solidly enough conected to this
particular incident to override the issur.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org        he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org   Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507      a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter

: On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 07:32:26AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
: > From http://revach.net/article.php?id=437

: > The minhag in today's Yeshivos is not to teach Tanach before learning  
: > Gemara. Rav Moshe Shternbuch (2:457) explains that learning Tanach  
: > requires even deeper understanding than learning Gemara. A Mekor for  
: > this is Rashi in Brachos (28a) who says that one should stay away from 
: > too much Tanach.

RDE pointed me to the original
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20026&;pgnum=390>

RMS appears to be saying that studying Nakh without a firm grounding
in Chazal first is too prone to lead one to kefirah. In addition to
the source Revach.net quotes, which requires translating "yoser midai"
as /any/ formal study, he also cites the Chasam Sofer (Toras Moshe P'
Shemos), who says that the translation to Greek gave people a taste of
peshuvo shel miqrah, which gave birth to apiqursus. "Which, ba'avonoseinu
harabim, still dances among us."

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On 6/12/2011 12:00 PM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> The Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi of Israel Yonah Metzger issued a formal
> responsum on September 25^th justifying their actions and urging the
> army to arrange that only men should sing at military events where
> many observant men are present. Is it really forbidden for Jewish men
> to listen to women singing?

Certainly.  This is well known.

> Was there any halakhic justification for the soldiers to walk out?

So says the Chief Rabbi.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On 12/6/2011 12:44 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> : On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 07:32:26AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> :>   From http://revach.net/article.php?id=437
>
> :>  The minhag in today's Yeshivos is not to teach Tanach before learning
> :>  Gemara. Rav Moshe Shternbuch (2:457) explains that learning Tanach
> :>  requires even deeper understanding than learning Gemara. A Mekor for
> :>  this is Rashi in Brachos (28a) who says that one should stay away from
> :>  too much Tanach.
>
> RDE pointed me to the original
> <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20026&;pgnum=390>
>
> RMS appears to be saying that studying Nakh without a firm grounding
> in Chazal first is too prone to lead one to kefirah.
I've heard yeshiva guys say "Chumash is for girls" and "Nach is bittul 
Torah".  The latter probably stems from the early secular Zionists using 
Nach as secular history.  Lionizing Ahab, for example.  I'm pretty sure 
that's the kind of kefirah they're worried about.

Lisa


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