Avodah Mailing List

Volume 29: Number 11

Tue, 31 Jan 2012

• 1. Re: animals and bechira?? (David Riceman)
• 2. Re: karas hatov? required?? (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 3. Re: RMF on separtaion of sexes (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 4. Wack-a-Frog (Eliyahu Grossman)
• 5. faucets (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: karas hatov? required?? (Lisa Liel)
• 7. treif anatomy (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 8. afikoman (Eli Turkel)
• 9. No joy can equal the resolution of doubt (LReich)
• 10. Re: afikoman (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Costa Concordia and halachah (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: No joy can equal the resolution of doubt (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: No joy can equal the resolution of doubt (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: animals and bechira?? (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Fasting on a Yahrtzeit (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: karas hatov? required?? (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Wack-a-Frog (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: animals and bechira?? (David Riceman)

On 1/24/2012 9:44 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>
> How so?  If someone tries to train a lion and gets et, maybe they were 
> just bad at it.
>
That's not what the mishna says.  It says the machlokes is whether lions 
are "bnei tarbus", not whether one should make a gezeirah because of 
incompetent lion trainers.

David Riceman

I asked:

> Why would the hakaras hatov for this [municipal garbage
> collection] be any less than the hakaras hatov due to a
> shopkeeper from whom one purchases his milk and bread?

R"n Lisa Liel responded:

> On the contrary.  If a street kid runs into an intersection
> while you're stopped and starts washing your window and demands
> payment, do you owe him hakarat hatov?  I don't think so.
>
> In order to take money/services from a medina, it has to have
> taken that money from you or others or both.  To then receive
> some of it back doesn't seem like something requiring gratitude
> from the recipient.
>
> I owe hakarat hatov to someone who gives me something of their
> own, or does something for me themselves.  Someone who robs a
> bank and gives me some of the proceeds doesn't merit my
> gratitude either.

At first, I saw no connection at all between garbage collection (a critical
service which the government provides to all in partial return for taxes,
and which I'd have to do myself otherwise) and windshield cleaning (a
non-critical service which I'm being held hostage to at the random choice
of this person). I see garbage collection as an essential service, but RLL
seems to see it as criminal extortion (or something similar).

So I pondered other examples that she might have used, and I began to see
her point. For example, Do I owe hakaras hatov to the police and army for
protecting me, if I strongly disagree with some of their policies and
procedures?

In actual fact, there have been times when the police have stopped me for a
minor infraction, and afterwards I thank the officer for doing his job. But
in the context of this thread, I honestly don't know if that gratitude is
halachically required or if it is lifnim m'shuras hadin.

I am particularly unsure about this in the case of a person who was WRONGLY
stopped by the police, or who was mistreated by the police (which DOES
happen on occasion). The police are human and make mistakes, and although
it might be allowed to thank them for doing their job in such a case, I can
certainly see room to say that the obligation is absent.

In the original post, R' Harvey Benton asked about another case besides
garbage collection, and that was one who accepts money from the government.
Here too I can see RLL's point. Accepting welfare is good for my bank
account, but it is not without its downsides, and I can all too easily
understand how a person might accept such money with very mixed feelings.

In summary, I apologize for my glib response. These cases can be very complicated and must be examined very carefully.

To do that examination, let's go back to the beginning. I began with the
presumption that a person does owe some gratitude to a shopkeeper from who
he buys his bread and milk. Even when he pays a fair price and the
shopkeeper is making a fair profit, thus giving the appearance of a
zero-sum game, the customer still owes gratitude to the shopkeeper, without
whom he would have no bread and no milk. This is the halacha as I recall
it, but I do not remember from where. Am I correct? Does anyone else know a
source?

Once we have that source, we can compare it to the other cases. The most
glaring difference that I can see is that I voluntarily chose to purchase
my bread and milk, but the taxes and garbage collection and windshield
cleaning and army and police are matters which I have little or no choice
about. This could be an important distinction. Welfare usually involves a
voluntary application at the beginning, but can become a severe addiction
later, and will be an even more complicated question.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f1f18998d73e3484d0st06vuc

R' Eli Turkel asked:
> How did RMF allow mixed seating at his daughter's wedding
> to Rav Tendler?

R' Zev Sero responded:
> Because a wedding is not a public event, since it's by invitation
> only. OTOH since a beis ha'avel is open to the public, RMF
> requires a mechitza there.

This is an important distinction. I have a friend who once had a job as the
chaplain of a Jewish nursing home. Prior to taking the job, he asked his
rav about the nursing home's shul, which had separate seating but no
mechitza. His rav answered him with RZS's logic: because the shul is not
open to the general public, but only to the residents and their guests, it
was okay. That rav may have cited RMF, but I'm not sure.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Best Diet Pills of 2011
Which Diet Pills Really Work? Updated 2011 Expert & Consumer Ratings.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f1f1c69d054f67020ast02vuc

In last week's parshah we read of the frog, in the singular, coming up and
covering the land. The first half of Rashi brings forth a Midrash that has
Rabbi Akiva saying that they wacked the frog and it multiplied, with Rabbi
Elazar ben Azariah rebutting, telling R' Akiva to go back to what he's good
at, that R' Akiva got it wrong. There was one frog, he whistled, and they
came. Period.

I have not been able to find this exact Midrash anywhere else. In Mesechet
Sanhedrin 67b, which is repeated in Midrash Rabbah Shemot 10:4. The Midrash
is there, with the exception of the frog wacking. I searched through other
earlier sources and found nothing, although Midrash Tanchuma does have the
first half, but without Rabbi Elazar ben Azariah being mentioned (he wasn't
pertinent to the discussion at hand there). So it appears that this frog
wacking is form a later source, and either Rashi was using a complete
Midrash from a later period that I have yet to find, or he combined a couple
to make this new one.

Granted, it's an interesting add-on, and one interpretation could be that
the enemies of the Jews will hasten redemption through their oppression,
while Rabbi Elazar ben Azariah says that it is only when the Mashiach comes,
when will call and it is then that we will make aliyah (come up) that there
will be redemption. That's one interpretation. Although the wacking appears
to sidetrack from Rabbi Akiva's message in such an interpretation.

But I was interested in seeing what Chazal's intent was, and so I have put
aside the frog wacking part of the Midrash for now (I am sure that Rashi had
his reasons, and that would take a while to get into), and it's placement in
Mesechet Sanhedrin is also fascinating. Unless there is another version of
the Rashi where he does not mention frog wacking, and it was an editorial
insert. That's also possible, and equally interesting.

My question, though: has anyone on this list ever come across a source for
wacking the frog exactly as Rashi brings up? Or a version of the Rashi
without the frog wacking? 

Thanks.

Eliyahu Grossman
Efrat, Israel

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-GettingaHandleOnYourFaucet.htm

1.Did anyone check to see if the faucets that always have hot  is a miyut
hamatzui? I'm sure some may be in that category but iiuc that is not the
basic design.
2.As a plumber's grandson I can tell you these were in wide use by the mid
60's (see here for detail  http://www.madehow.com
/Volume-6/Faucet.html).  No   one asked about it since then?
3.The easy fix of shutting off in an old fixture may not be so easy - those
valves may be old, rusted and I know that they often do not completely shut
off in that case.  Replacing the faucet may also entail replacing the sink
- neither of which are necessarily cheap.

KT
Joel Rich
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On 1/24/2012 2:45 PM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> I asked:
>
>    
>> Why would the hakaras hatov for this [municipal garbage
>> collection] be any less than the hakaras hatov due to a
>> shopkeeper from whom one purchases his milk and bread?
>>      
> R"n Lisa Liel responded:
>    
>> On the contrary.  If a street kid runs into an intersection
>> while you're stopped and starts washing your window and demands
>> payment, do you owe him hakarat hatov?  I don't think so.
>>
>> In order to take money/services from a medina, it has to have
>> taken that money from you or others or both.  To then receive
>> some of it back doesn't seem like something requiring gratitude
>> from the recipient.
>>
>> I owe hakarat hatov to someone who gives me something of their
>> own, or does something for me themselves.  Someone who robs a
>> bank and gives me some of the proceeds doesn't merit my
>> gratitude either.
>>      
> I am particularly unsure about this in the case of a person who was
> WRONGLY stopped by the police, or who was mistreated by the police
> (which DOES happen on occasion). The police are human and make
> mistakes, and although it might be allowed to thank them for doing
> their job in such a case, I can certainly see room to say that the
> obligation is absent.
>    
I generally do say thank you in such cases, but it doesn't actually 
reflect hakarat hatov on my part.  It's probably actually an act of 
chanifa.  But since it's chanifa stemming from fear (the fear that any 
"civil servant" has the power to mess with my life with the power of the 
state behind it), I'm not sure it's assur.
> In the original post, R' Harvey Benton asked about another case
> besides garbage collection, and that was one who accepts money from
> the government. Here too I can see RLL's point. Accepting welfare is
> good for my bank account, but it is not without its downsides, and I
> can all too easily understand how a person might accept such money
> with very mixed feelings.
>    
I've received unemployment payments.  And I've disliked the necessity, 
but I certainly felt no gratitude for it, considering that I'm forced to 
pay into the unemployment every month whether I want to or not.  That 
being the case, I consider receiving some of my own money back to be my 
due, rather than a gift.  Similarly with tax refunds.  They feel like 
found money, but the fact is, that's my money, which the government has 
been holding for its benefit and not mine, and any of it that they 
return to me is hardly something I should be grateful for.

> In summary, I apologize for my glib response. These cases can be very complicated and must be examined very carefully.
>
> To do that examination, let's go back to the beginning. I began with
> the presumption that a person does owe some gratitude to a shopkeeper
> from who he buys his bread and milk. Even when he pays a fair price
> and the shopkeeper is making a fair profit, thus giving the appearance
> of a zero-sum game, the customer still owes gratitude to the
> shopkeeper, without whom he would have no bread and no milk. This is
> the halacha as I recall it, but I do not remember from where. Am I
> correct? Does anyone else know a source?
>    
I don't have a source off-hand, but it seems like a case of lama lee 
kra? Svara hee.  A person who provides goods or services, even if it's 
done entirely for his own benefit, benefits the users of those goods or 
services as well.  Without productive people, consumers have nothing to 
consume.  Whereas without consumers, producers can still produce what 
they need to survive.

> Once we have that source, we can compare it to the other cases. The
> most glaring difference that I can see is that I voluntarily chose to
> purchase my bread and milk, but the taxes and garbage collection and
> windshield cleaning and army and police are matters which I have
> little or no choice about. This could be an important distinction.
> Welfare usually involves a voluntary application at the beginning, but
> can become a severe addiction later, and will be an even more
> complicated question.
>    
I don't think that's how I'd put it.  Rather, I'd say that in the case 
of the government, they're simply giving me what they owe me.  In the 
case of a storekeeper, who does not exist for my sake but benefits me 
nonetheless, gratitude is appropriate.

Lisa

http://www.mpaths.com/2012/01/why-is-my-cow-treif.html 



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a little early for Pesach.  I saw with regard to a gemara in Baba Metzia ta
there is a minhag to hang a portion of the afikoman on the wall.
Dos anyone know of this minhag?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I'm trying to find the origin of the Hebrew quotation, "Ayn Simchah Kehatoras Hasfekos", 
( No joy can equal the resolution of doubt). 

As far as I know it is not found in Chazal. It can be found in the Metzudas Dovid (Mishlay 15:30).
I have seen it attributed to the Rema (but where?). My unreliable memory indicates that it
was coined by R' Yedaya Hapnini or R' Solomon ibn Gabirol (11th Century).

Can anyone help in resolving this doubt?

Elozor Reich
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On 26/01/2012 4:27 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> a little early for Pesach.  I saw with regard to a gemara in Baba Metzia ta
> there is a minhag to hang a portion of the afikoman on the wall.
> Dos anyone know of this minhag?

I've seen it in Oberlander homes.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 03:21:29PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: I cannot cite any sources, but it seems to me that the halachos RGS
: cites are for ordinary situations, where "all else is being equal",
: such as where ordinary passengers are in a lifeboat and the food is
: running out, or whatever. It is difficult for me to imagine that it also
: applies to special situations, such as that of the captain and crew,
: who accepted responsibility for the safety of their passengers.

: If I am wrong and RGS is correct, then it seems that his logic would
: also apply to soldiers, who would then be allowed to abandon their units
: and seek safety under the "chayechah kodmin - each man for himself"...

Except that milchamah is a special case, being neither of the 3 yeihareig
ve'al ya'avor and yet still overriding piquach nefesh. I wouldn't try
extrapolating from other mitzvos to war.

It could be that the concept of milkhamah is that there is a time when
the nation has to choose to risk the few in order to save the many. IOW,
that the whole justification of going to war is based on overriding the
principle of "chayekha qodmin".

In particular, preserving a chain of command saves lives overall.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 12:04:22PM -0000, LReich wrote:
: I'm trying to find the origin of the Hebrew quotation, "Ayn Simchah
: Kehatoras Hasfekos"...
: As far as I know it is not found in Chazal. It can be found in the
: Metzudas Dovid (Mishlay 15:30).

Which has: Ein be'olam simchah kehataras hasfeiqos.

The Bar Ilan CD (searching for the words "ain" "simchah" "kehataras"
in proximity) has one other rishon, who has it exactly as you quote:
    Peri Megadim OC Mishbetzos Zahav siman 682

And after that, only three more hits, all from the modern era:
    Yabia Omer II OC #18
    Shu"t Ateres Paz vol 1:2 YD #87
    Shu"t Shoel veNish'al II YD #156

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org        All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org   to be as human as possible while we are here.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Anonymous MD, while a Nazi prisoner

On 30/01/2012 5:44 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> The Bar Ilan CD (searching for the words "ain" "simchah" "kehataras"
> in proximity) has one other rishon, who has it exactly as you quote:
>      Peri Megadim OC Mishbetzos Zahav siman 682

Quibble: Pri Megadim is not a rishon.  He was the Mezritcher Maggid's
stepfather, so mid-18th century.  IOW a contemporary of the Metzudos.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 09:56:09AM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
> On 1/24/2012 9:44 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> How so?  If someone tries to train a lion and gets et, maybe they were  
>> just bad at it.

> That's not what the mishna says.  It says the machlokes is whether lions  
> are "bnei tarbus", not whether one should make a gezeirah because of  
> incompetent lion trainers.

The machloqes is whether domesticated (Rashi: benei tarbus - that someone
raised them in their home) wolves, lions, bears, leopards, "bardelas"es
(translation?) and snakes are mu'adin are not.

It could be a question of the "shiur" in probability for defining mu'ad
-- does the number of times trained lions break training still qualify
them as mu'adin? It could be any of a large number of questions.

But animals being both trainable and unpredictable does not require
assuming free will. It's easy enough to make a computer program that is
unpredictable, but the odds of various outputs change with "training".
Tic-tac-toe playing programs that "learn" from past losses, for example.
(C.f. http://mindthegap.googlecode.com/files/Introduction.pdf )

As I said earlier, see the Meshekh Chokhmah on tzelem E-lokim. He insists
bechirah is the very tzelem which makes human beings human.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:36:12AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
:> I think the taanis is minhag, not din.
: 
: The following is from page 418 of Mourning in Halacha
: 
: ~ Fasting

: 24. It is a mitzvah to fast on the yahrzeit of one's father or mother...

The SA (OC 568:7) and the Rama argue whether one should fast on the first
Adar or 2nd but don't say the degree of obligation. The MB (s"q 42) uses
"mechuyav", implying halakhah.

The Rama calls it a "mitzvah" (YD 276:4, 404:12), but the Gra (276 s"q 7)
says that while it seems that way from Shevuos 20a others explain it's yom
hamisah only. Looking at the gemara myself, the yeish meforashim seems
the more intuitive read -- "keyom shemeis bo aviv" sounds like the yom
hamisah, not yahrzeit. But in any case, the gemara is only discussing
meat and wine, not fasting.

So, I am not sure it really is called a mitzvah until the MB.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 03:23:31PM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I don't think that's how I'd put it.  Rather, I'd say that in the case  
> of the government, they're simply giving me what they owe me.  In the  
> case of a storekeeper, who does not exist for my sake but benefits me  
> nonetheless, gratitude is appropriate.

Your reisha might depend on whether what I receive is more valuable to
me than what I receive. Someone with two sons on SSI may very well be
getting back more than they pay in taxes.

For that matter, insurance is worth more than its expected payoff by
preventing financial catastrophe. If the expected payoff were greater,
insurance companies would go broke. If the value to the consumer were
less than his payments, he wouldn't buy it.

The same non-linearity of value may also apply to mandatory unemployment
insurance, even though it doesn't affect whether or not someone pays in.

Also, I am obligated to pay into the gov't whether or not I end up needing
to be a recipient. Hakaras hatov for what I receive may therefore be
divorced from whether or not it was originally my money.

Doesn't R' Chanina segan hakohanim (Avos 3:2) require hakaras hatov of
the gov't just for creating the fear that reduces crime? Or are we told
to praying for its peace for other reasons?

But what I think is more important.

Hodaah is a transitive middah -- I am thankful to the provider.

Hakaras hatov is intransitive, it does not really involve the
provider. This is how covering bread, which had no choice in being a
provider, can be an exercise in haqaras hatov. Or Moshe's not doing the
first three makos, even though the Nile and sand didn't have a choice,
nor care if they are plagued.

Lisa's reasoning fits hoda'ah, but it becomes less compelling WRT
hakaras hatov.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org        than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org   then what need do you have for tomorrow?
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 07:41:49AM +0200, Eliyahu Grossman wrote:
: In last week's parshah we read of the frog, in the singular, coming up and
: covering the land. The first half of Rashi brings forth a Midrash that has
: Rabbi Akiva saying that they wacked the frog and it multiplied, with Rabbi
: Elazar ben Azariah rebutting, telling R' Akiva to go back to what he's good
: at, that R' Akiva got it wrong. There was one frog, he whistled, and they
: came. Period.
: 
: I have not been able to find this exact Midrash anywhere else. In Mesechet
: Sanhedrin 67b, which is repeated in Midrash Rabbah Shemot 10:4. The Midrash
: is there, with the exception of the frog wacking...

In fact, the peshat in R' Aqiva appears to be that the frog multiplied
through reproduction.

Sanhedrin: tzefardeia achas haysah, umal'ah kol Eretz Mitzrayim.

Shemos Rabba: ... vehi hishritzah umal'ah...

Similarly, Yalquv Shim'oni.

Ramban (citing Shemos Rabba): ... hishitza umal'ah ...

Seikhel Tov (Buber): ... vehishritzah umal'eis kol Eretz Mitzrayim.

(With thanks to Bar Ilan CD.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 1/30/2012 6:56 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> As I said earlier, see the Meshekh Chokhmah on tzelem E-lokim. He 
> insists bechirah is the very tzelem which makes human beings human.

He is reflecting a commonplace medieval doctrine, that animals make 
impulsive choices and humans make thoughtful choices.  The standard 
medieval claim was that if you placed a donkey midway between two 
equally attractive piles of hay it would starve, since equal and 
opposite impulses balance out.  A human, on the other hand, would 
realize that standing indecisive is a worse choice than going in either 
direction.

I don't that idea because I have seen animals make thoughtful choices.  
There's certainly plenty of scientific literature on animals solving 
problems and using tools.  So if you want to restrict "bechirah" to 
humans, you need to redefine it in an unnatural way.

One slightly less awkward way is to claim that bechirah specifically 
means choosing to obey or disobey God (cf. Meor Einayim on Parshas Bo 
s.v. "ubazeh yevuar").  I don't like that because, as the Meor Einayim 
acknowledges, it implies that people often lack bechirah.

David Riceman




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