Avodah Mailing List

Volume 29: Number 24

Tue, 21 Feb 2012

• 1. Re: R Elyashiv (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Tahara (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Tahara (Saul Guberman)
• 4. Re: Terumos Umaaseros (Lisa Liel)
• 5. Re: Tahara (Joshua Meisner)
• 6. Child abuse - socializing with an alleged abuser (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 7. Re: Halacha is about sources. Lo BaShamayim hi. (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Clear Thinking About Male Homosexuals (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 9. 13 salads on shabbat (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Corporate Entities (Micha Berger)
• 11. bris kibudim (M Cohen)
• 12. Are emmer, einkorn and durum wheat? (Danny Schoemann)
• 13. Re: Are emmer, einkorn and durum wheat? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Tosfos Yom Tov (T6...@aol.com)
• 15. Re: Tosfos Yom Tov (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 16. Re: Are emmer, einkorn and durum wheat? (Lisa Liel)

On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 08:52:14PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Is there any mitzvah to be closer to the sick person. Does praying in the
: corridor have any more effect than praying in kikar shabbat?

Maybe the setting is more emotionally motivational -- a strong kavanah
aid. Isn't that the Litvisher approach to understanding the value of
davening at a qever?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 12:03:20PM +0200, Danny Schoemann wrote:
:> I therefore assume it is only a custom. I do not recall seeing 
:> it quoted in the Shulchan Aruch. 

: Try SA YD  352 and the Rambam in Sefer Shoftim -- Hil. Avel Ch. 4
: But it's already a Mishna in Shabbat: Ch. 23 Mishna 5 (on Daf 151)

Which is why I phrased the question as when did rechitzah turn into a
pseudo-taharah, with immersion in 40 se'ah or having 9 qav poured upon
the body.

It's not mitaheir -- the body is still tamei meis. So why/how/when did
rechitzah get conflated with taharah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 12:21, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 12:03:20PM +0200, Danny Schoemann wrote:
> :> I therefore assume it is only a custom. I do not recall seeing
> :> it quoted in the Shulchan Aruch.
>
> : Try SA YD  352 and the Rambam in Sefer Shoftim -- Hil. Avel Ch. 4
> : But it's already a Mishna in Shabbat: Ch. 23 Mishna 5 (on Daf 151)
>
> Which is why I phrased the question as when did rechitzah turn into a
> pseudo-taharah, with immersion in 40 se'ah or having 9 qav poured upon
> the body.
>
> It's not mitaheir -- the body is still tamei meis. So why/how/when did
> rechitzah get conflated with taharah?
>
>
The entire preparation process is called tahara.  What I learned from the
person who taught me to do "chevra work" that 9 qav was always used.  Mikva
is a more recent (that is a relative term) thing that used to only be used
for "Rebbes".  I was at the YU seforim sale last night.  The one book that
dealt with chevra kaddisha, traces it to the Maharil.  He was only a
codifier of existing practices.  These practices had been going on well
before him.

Saul
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120219/de428742/attachment-0001.htm>

Also cherries.

On 2/19/2012 10:28 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 12:15:32PM +0200, Danny Schoemann wrote:
> : According to my Magid Shiur (and confirmed by R' Google), peach and
> : nectarine trees flower during January and are a huge headache when it comes
> : to T"uM.
>
> Peaches, nectarines and almonds are related plants. The difference is
> that while the almond ripens early, we wait for the fruit to dry up and
> get leathery, split open and then harvest just the pit. Look a a peach
> stone, and compare it to an almond in shell.
>
> http://pavdevelopment.com/almond/harvest/Commercial-Almond
> -Harvest-Process
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
>    
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120219/6cf038af/attachment-0001.htm>

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:00 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 10:41:47PM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> : It is considered the ultimate not because the relatives can't thank you
> or
> : return a favor, and not because you don't get schar -- but because THE
> : PERSON  YOU ARE HELPING can never help you or even thank you in any way.
>
> Does "chessed shel emes" mean "the ultimate chessed"?
>
> It does seem to mean "with no expectation of personal gain", or more
> literally "real chessed". And thus if you are willing to include people
> who are not in a position to pay you back ("completed incapacitated",
> is how you put it), then why aren't you willing to exclude cases where
> living people know who did the taharah and think better of the chevrah
> qadisha member for it?
>

R' Yitzchok Dovid Frankel, in his Machat Shel Yad (Vayechi, 4), notes that
Rashi's precise wording in defining chessed shel emes is "she-eino m'tzapeh
l'sashlum g'mul", literally, that he does not look forward to repayment,
and, in this light, explains that chessed shel emes is one where one does
not wish to anticipate compensation, as the truest compensation for such
actions only occurs at one's own burial.


Joshua Meisner
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120219/dd1dfe22/attachment-0001.htm>

While it seems fairly obvious that a child abuser should be ostracized -
aside from reporting him to police - the problem is what to do with an
alleged abuser? The general approach is to take whatever measures that
are necessary to protect children - if the allegations are true - while
minimizing the damage to the accused that is not related to protecting
children. This follows the view that a sofek rodef is treated as a
rodef. What if the accusations are 10 to 20 years old? One can assume
that if a person was a molester 10 to 20 years ago - he still is a
danger to children. In fact it has been found that sometimes after jail
sometimes there can be inactivity for over 30 years before the person
resumes abusing children. What about activities that are not directly
related to the danger to children. For example if your neighbor was
accused of abusing children - should you continue socializing with him?
Should a person who has been publicly accused of abuse be honored with
an aliya in Shul? There are sources which advise firing a teacher based
entirely on persistent rumors or on clear circumstantial evidence. . In
other words - the mere existence of rumors makes it inappropriate for
a person to remain in certain positions - or even be given corporal
punishment. However these are difficult questions for which there probably
is not a definitive answer.

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 03:07:00PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> But is it valid? Is DdM just another variant on Minhag Hatagarim, or
> even like Choshen Mishpat, stating the default rules from which anyone
> is entitled to deviate? Or does it establish basic realities of baalus,
> so that if DdM says this object belongs to A and not to B, and that this
> doesn't depend on their will, then A may give B permission to use it, and
> may agree not to sue him or challenge him and to act in all ways *as if*
> B owned it, but it remains A's property because that's what the DdM says?

I am not sure that "basic realities of baalus" are different than the
concept of norm.

It reminds me of the discussion near the end of Ymi Taanis about how
hefqer BD hefqer can create a chalos that can impact even terumah. (Which
isn't taken from hefqer.) I'm not sure if it's valid, ie if hefqer BD
hefqer is what you think of as "CM" as opposed to "basic realities
of baalus", it just vaguely feels related.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 02:47:16PM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
>                        Back in the 1990s (I think it was), Rabbi David
> Bar Hayim and Rabbi Shlomo Riskin had a debate, during which R' Riskin
> claimed that "Lo Tirtzach" applied to killing anyone, Jewish or not. He
> supported his claim by reading from the Rambam's Hilchot Rotzeiach,
> where he says [kol horeig nefesh adam oveir belo sa'aseih, shene'emar
> 'lo sirtzach'] R' Bar Hayim got up and took out a copy of the Rambam
> based on manuscripts of the Rambam himself and read [... nefesh adam
> meYisrael...] (and you can see that girsa on the Mechon Mamre site as
> well). He suggested that we'd do better going according to what the
> Rambam wrote with his own hand, rather than the official version of the
> Polish Catholic Church. Note, btw, that he wasn't saying it's okay to
> kill non-Jews, only that it doesn't come from that pasuk. R' Riskin's
> reply was that we pasken by the version in our hands. I didn't think
> that was a kosher answer at the time, and I don't think the answer of
> the Torah Codes folks was any better.

Didn't you recently defend the notion of siyata diShmaya getting us
to the correct text of the Torah, despite relying on the majority of
three manuscripts? Why is that valid for the mesoretic text, but not
other halakhos? Why not argue that we had the girsa we had because
that's the direction Hashem wanted us to orient toward?

I think RMBH lost site of what it means for Torah to be an Orality,
rather than a formal text.

Which ties back to my problem with not having a poseiq. The whole thing
is about having a river flowing from the past. That middle ground between
the classical academic trying to recreate original intent of a text and
the deconstructionist who only cares about the meaning created by his
interaction with the text.

As I blogged:

    Mesorah is a living tradition of a development of ideas. The Oral
    Torah is oral, a dialog across the generations. If we see a quote in
    the gemara from Rav Yochanan, we might be curious about the historical
    intent of Rav Yochanan. But in terms of Torah, important to us than
    what R' Yochanan's original intent is what R' Ashi thought that
    intent was, which in turn can only be understood through the eyes
    of what the Rosh and the Rambam understood R' Ashi's meaning to be,
    which in turn can only be understood through the eyes of the Shaagas
    Aryeh and R' Chaim Brisker. That is the true meaning, in terms of
    Torah, of Rav Yoachanan's statement.

    Definitionally, talmud Torah is entering the stream. Not seeing a
    statement as a point to isolate in time and space, but as a being
    within current that runs through history from creation to redemption.
    ...

    Both the classical academic and the Deconstructionist share
    one thing in common --" they see themselves as encountering the
    text. The idea is that the material is "other", outside, to remain
    objectively studied. One looks for the context for which the text
    was written. The other looks for how the text can be understood with
    minimal assumptions about context.

    Wissenschaft des Judentums, the "science" -- i.e. academic study --
    "of Judaism", isn't inherently evil. It is quite possible, and in some
    circles quite common, to combine Orthodoxy and Wissenschaft. However,
    as implied at the end of the previous section, it is not to be
    confused with Talmud Torah as per the mitzvah.

    The academic's job is the objective study of the material. Trying
    to get to the truth by eliminating personal bias and hidden
    assumptions. Talmud Torah is about internalizing the lessons of
    the Torah. Rather than trying to be objective, the entire goal
    is subjectivity. If mesorah is a discussion down the generations,
    studying Torah is adding one's voice to the conversation.

That's why I speak about legal process, emphasis on the word process,
rather than an attempt to discover some abtract truth.

Tangent: We tend to think of halakhah as law, but it's not the only
valid model, or even necessarily the closest. R' Dr Moshe Koppel writes
about halakhah as language, with the added nuance that unlike law, the
rules of grammar only partly capture everying an accomplished writer can
effectively do with the language. (Judaism as a First Language
<http://www.azure.org.il/article.php?id=588>; also see his book Metahalakhah.)
Halakhah as lifestyle is also a valid mental image. For that matter
"lifestyle" is a pretty accurate literal translation of "Orakh
Chaim".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
mi...@aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson

R' Jay Shachter wrote:

> The real reason people are friendlier to Sabbath desecrators ...
> than to pederasts is that we are sympathetic to the Sabbath
> desecrators -- in the sense that we understand them. We understand
> how decent people of good will, who were raised without benefit of
> a Torah education, may honestly lack the conviction that Sabbath
> observance in the sense we define it is mandatory.
>
> ... With respect to male homosexuals, people have the sense that
> "they ought to know that this is wrong -- they ought to know,
> inside, on their own, without recourse to authority or to
> tradition, that this is just wrong".

This is an excellently-explained distinction.

However, RJS then goes on to suggest WHY we expect them "to know, inside,
on their own, without recourse to authority or to tradition, that this is
just wrong". And that is the point that I'd like to question. He wrote:

> Judaism believes that there are seven principles of conduct to
> which all humans must conform.  This means that God rightly
> expects certain behavior even from people who have not had the
> benefit of God's revelation.  Some knowledge is built into the
> human condition.  It is a consequence of being human that you
> know -- you just know -- that murder is wrong.  It doesn't matter
> if you grew up in Harlem, or Germany, or Kampuchea. ... In other
> words, it is an act forbidden not only to Jews, but also to all
> human beings, which means that there is something intrinsic to
> our nature that knows that it is forbidden.  It is this ... that
> people are really responding to when they are less accepting of
> practicing male homosexuals than of Sabbath violators.

This would be quite plausible were it not for Ever Min Hachai. I am not
aware of anyone who perceives of Ever Min Hachai as anything but a chok.
Despite meforshim who tie it to animal cruelty concepts, there are many
actions allowed to the non-Jew which are far more cruel to the animals. Is
it not common to refer to Ever Min Hachai as a sort of "hilchos kashrus"
for non-Jews?

To me, this argument disproves RJS's assertion that God rightly expects
obedience to the 7 Mitzvos Bnei Noach even from people who have not had the
benefit of God's revelation. (In my view, He might expect that only from
people who *have* had the benefit of receiving a Masorah of G-d's
Revelation of these laws to Noach. And unfortunately, as far as I know,
that Mesorah has been lost among the non-Jews, and I can't blame any who
decline to take our word for it.)

Truth be told, many of the seven are not explicit in the text of the Torah,
and the Bnei Noach are dependent on us to learn what these rules are. On
one level, although there are stories all over Tanach about when God got
angry over us for worshiping false gods, I'd be hard-pressed to find an
explicit Lo Taaseh addressed to non-Jews about it, certainly not in the
Noach story. On another level, they are *certainly* dependent on us for the
details of these laws. To use RJS's example, I cannot believe that the
average non-Jewish man has an inborn natural sense that having relations
with his mother is "just plain wrong", while with his daughter it is "no
problem".

People are *taught* these things. If not from their parents and teachers,
then from their peers and culture. But it is *not* innate. I do think that
shitos exist which say that a non-Jewish male homosexual who acts on those
urges would be considered Meizid, but I do not understand that, and would
prefer to consider him Shogeg or Omer Mutar or something similar.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f41bce59ec3011d123est05vuc

Does anyone know, the source for serving 13 salads at Fri nite and/or
Shabbat morning meal? . I imagine it's a chassidishe thing.

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120221/7daaf0c4/attachment-0001.htm>

Something in today's (Y-mi) daf made me wonder about corporate entities
in halakhah. Last couple of mishnayos in Sheqalim pereq 1 discuss the
difference between undivided inherited money (achizas habayis, almost
the same as the civil legal term "estate") and animals or money the
inheritors divided, but then recombine in a shituf.

Achizas habayis is chayav in maaseh beheimah, as there is one owner,
but the animals owned by a shituf do not. OTOH, if the inheritors use
achizas habayis to pay their machatzis hasheqal, they do not have to
pay a qolbon (an extra something to cover impurities in the coin and/or
exchange fees) because the AhB is paying for someone else, whereas if
the coins were owned beshituf, they're paying with their own money
and must pay a qolbon.

Thinking legally for a moment, a shituf is being treated as common
property among multiple owners. Something like a general partnership,
not even a limited or limited liability partnership.

But achizas habayis is treated like a real corporation, an entity in
its own right not actually owned by the inheritors.

Which made me wonder what other corporate entities exist in halakhah:
    heqdeish
    the tzibur -- and is that only Benei Yisrael as a whole, or can a
        city own something?

Are these valid? Are there others?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

We just had a grandchild in EY

 

A popular mohel there for the anglos in J'm (R yehuda Baum) gave my son the
following list of prioritized kibudim for the bris:

Sandak/amidah l'brochos/kisai eliyahu/brochos/krias shaim/amidah l' krias
shaim/maihakisai/maihasandak

 

I was surprised by the chashivus given to the second kibud.

 

Certainly in chul the olam treats amidah l'brochos (& kisai eliyahu) as less
important than brochos/krias shaim

 

Comments/sources?

 

mordechai cohen

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120221/ea8ef5a7/attachment-0001.htm>

Somebody asked me:

"I have a question in Halocho. We all know that there are 5 species of
Dagan that have special laws such as Hamotzi, Chometz, etc..

But from the scientific point of view there have been and still are
several other domesticated Deganim. For example: emmer, einkorn,
durum. These species are distinct. They are not a variation of one of
the 5 species. So legally they are not. But practically they contain
gluten and they undergo the same Chimutz during Pessach.

So my questions are:

how are they treated during Pessach?

how are they treated for the purpose of blessings??"

<End of his Question>
------------------------------


wheat. R' Wiki even calls them emmer wheat, einkorn wheat , durum
wheat. At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matzo they even say:

"As more accurate historic and botanical evidence comes to light, some
scholars today propose that only the 'five grain species' native to
the Land of Israel can become chametz.[4][5] They are:
 1.Chittah ? durum wheat (T. durum),
 2.Se?orah ? barley - 2 row (Hordeum vulgare), and
 3.Kusmin - emmer wheat (T. dicoccon),
 4.Shiphon - einkorn wheat (T. monococcum),
 5.Shibbolet ? barley ? 6 row (Hordeum vulgare)"


Anybody have something concrete on this from classical sources"?

Kol Tuv

- Danny

On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 04:58:20PM +0200, Danny Schoemann wrote:
: But from the scientific point of view there have been and still are
: several other domesticated Deganim. For example: emmer, einkorn,
: durum. These species are distinct. They are not a variation of one of
: the 5 species. So legally they are not...

As I wrote in 2009...

I think the gemara (Pesachim 35) is saying that the 5 minim are really
5 subtypes of the two grains that are among the 7 minim. The Tur makes
this point as well.

Chitah expands to include chitah (wheat), and kusemes (spelt),
    and
se'orah includes se'orah (barley), shifon (rye) and shibboles shu'al
(oats / rye / wild barley).

It's therefore gezeiras hakasuv.

Ad kan the cut-n-paste.

So, it would seem that the difference between chimutz and sirchan is
simply "Hashem said so". Chameitz is something made from what Hashem
blessed EY with. The science of fermentation has nothing to do with
it.

The list of 5 is therefore somewhat difficult to count. (Or maybe too
easy!) If you identify a grain that is too different than the others,
it doesn't belong on the list at all. Too similar, and we can just say
it's already included.

(This need for matzah to be made by a subtype of chitah or se'orah
also one of the difficulties with identifying shibboles shu'al with
oats, since it's not botanically similar to se'orah. Although oats do
commonly grow in barley fields wild, as a weed, so sociologically /
psychologically they are related.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

/_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom-Tov_Lipmann_Heller_ 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom-Tov_Lipmann_Heller) 
 
I see here that R' Yom Tov Lipman Heller (the Tosfos Yom Tov) wrote a set  
of piyutim to commemorate the Gezeiros Tach veTat.  Where would one find  
these piyutim?  Are any of them ever said or read today as part of any  
service during the year?
 
He also wrote a "Megillas Eivah" to commemorate his arrest and later  
release from prison -- and asked his descendants to celebrate a family Purim and  
to read this megillah on the anniversary of his release from prison.   
Again, where would one find this megillah that he wrote?
 

--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120221/4d37a9af/attachment-0001.htm>

R'n TK:
I see here that R' Yom Tov Lipman Heller (the Tosfos Yom Tov) wrote a set of
piyutim to commemorate the Gezeiros Tach veTat.? Where would one find these
piyutim?? Are any of them ever said or read today as part of any service
during the year?
?
He also wrote a "Megillas Eivah" to commemorate his arrest and later release
from prison -- and asked his descendants to celebrate a family Purim and
to?read this megillah on the anniversary of his release from prison.? Again,
where would one find this megillah that he wrote?
-------------------


fine edition with footnotes and introductory material, as well as
biographical material. I don't think it has the piyutim you refer to, but it
does have a "Keil Malei" that he wrote.

KT,
MYG

This reminds me of people who say that Jonah wasn't swallowed by a 
whale, because a whale isn't a dag.  But that's fallacious, because dag 
(a halakhic category) is not conguent to fish (a scientific category). 
Similarly, it doesn't matter if the other species of grain are 
distinct.  To say that they are "legal" not the same is incorrect.  The 
distinction of genus and species is not relevant to halakhic categorization.

Lisa

On 2/21/2012 8:58 AM, Danny Schoemann wrote:
> Somebody asked me:
>
> "I have a question in Halocho. We all know that there are 5 species of
> Dagan that have special laws such as Hamotzi, Chometz, etc..
>
> But from the scientific point of view there have been and still are
> several other domesticated Deganim. For example: emmer, einkorn,
> durum. These species are distinct. They are not a variation of one of
> the 5 species. So legally they are not. But practically they contain
> gluten and they undergo the same Chimutz during Pessach.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20120221/d8c29943/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 29, Issue 24
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."