Avodah Mailing List

Volume 29: Number 29

Tue, 28 Feb 2012

• 1. elevators (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Clear Thinking about Male Homosexuals (T6...@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Clear Thinking about Male Homosexuals (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: The Superbowl Maariv (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. re Hecksher for oils (martin brody)
• 6. Re: re Hecksher for oils (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Evolution (Harry Maryles)
• 8. Re: Corporate Entities (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 9. Re: The Superbowl Maariv (Dorron Katzin)
• 10. Co-education (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 11. Re: Co-education (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Corporate Entities (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: The Superbowl Maariv (Zev Sero)
• 14. superbowl maariv (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 15. The superbowl maariv (Rich, Joel)
• 16. Re: The Superbowl Maariv (Harry Maryles)

<< From http://tinyurl.com/84nep3l


New decree forbids use of any kind of elevator on the Sabbath >>

The article is from 2009. R Elyashiv isnt signing anything these days.
The end of that argument was to set up a committee that came to the
brilliant conclusion that it was a disagreement between RSZA and RYSE and
left things the way they were.

I have the feeling that many of these explosive piskei halacha in the last
few years have dies away after a few months.

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120228/04dbf322/attachment-0001.htm>

 

>> There is no case in the Torah  where an Israelite married or had a  
relationship with his  daughter.  Avraham married a half-sister (not  
stated in the 
text  though), Yakov married two sisters, Yehudah married his  
daughter-in-law  
yibumically, Amram married his aunt.  << [--old  TK]




>>>>>>
 
As I was re-reading this, I remembered that Avraham marrying a half-sister  
IS stated in the text--he told Avimelech that Sarah was his half-sister.  
 
But really she was not his half-sister, she was his niece, just as Lot was  
not his brother, but his nephew (though he said, "Anashim achim  anachnu"). 
The main point -- that people don't necessarily feel shame or  revulsion at 
marrying a sister (or half-sister) -- remains, as Avraham was  evidently 
not embarrassed to say that his wife was his sister.  But a  father and a 
daughter would be shameful everywhere.
 
 



--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 
 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120228/f439adad/attachment-0001.htm>

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 12:17:03PM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: As I was re-reading this, I remembered that Avraham marrying a half-sister  
: IS stated in the text--he told Avimelech that Sarah was his half-sister.  

"Achosi hi", nothing about halves (21:2). Similarly Avraham in Mitzrayim
(12:12,19) and Yitzchaq in Gerar (27:7).

I like R' Hertz's explanation.

There is a law in the Hammurabi code by which a father in law can "adopt"
a child for the sake of inheritence. I presume it was a kind of dowry,
or a means of showing the machateinim a vote of confidence.

In this way, Avraham could have been giving a misimpression by telling
something that is strictly true, leshanos es ha'emes, which is mutar in
more contexts than actual sheqer is. Although both are mutar in a case
of safeiq piquach nefesh anyway.

In order to apply this idea to Yitzchaq and Avimelekh, we would have to
say that Avraham followed this practice as well. That's more of a chiddush
than saying Terach followed the norms for rich Mesopotamians. But not
terribly so.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

If I understood R"n Toby Katz correctly, she is suggesting that there's little or no difference between:

(A) a late Shacharis minyan on sunday, and
(B) a half-time Maariv minyan for the superbowl.

To some degree or another, either both are okay, or neither is okay. That
is an amazing analysis. I've gotten so used to the late-sunday minyan that
this comparison never occured to me. Thanks so much!

Here's another situation which might be (pardon the pun) in the same
ballpark: Allowing a combined Mincha-Maariv minyan in the same post-Plag
and pre-Night block of time, which ought to be avoided, but is allowed
simply to maximize minyan attendance. Basically it comes down to balancing
the convenience and desires of the attendees, against the goals and ideals
of Torah, does it not?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Mom Makes Botox Doctors Furious
Mom Reveals Clever Wrinkle Therapy That Makes Botox Doctors Furious&#33
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f4d2347da71e19a150dst01vuc

Rabbi Akiva Padwa, Senior Rabbinical Coordinator London Beth Din Kashrut
Division wrote:
> The London Beth Din does not certify or even approve any vegetable oil
> which is refined and deodorised in the same refinery as tallow (Chelev).
> This means that we do not approve oils that are processed on the same
> refinery and using the same steam system even if they are not actually
> processed on the same equipment.

On 27/02/2012 2:39 PM, martin brody wrote:
> R. Padwa is talking about LBD certification, not their approval policy.

Did you miss the "or even approve" and the "we do not approve"?"

I didn't miss anything.
As with the last episode with Brussel sprouts and other vegetables, he may
be referring to LBD supervised products, and or restaurants.
He is wrong if he is saying that is the policy in general. Not the first
time.
A few years ago at a meeting with Dayan Ehrentrau, a Rabbi of mine
questioned him about LBD policies as laid out in their book. Dayan
Ehrentrau, who was the head of the LBD at the time, admitted he was
unfamiliar with the policies.However, as he knew halacha, he understood the
various blanket statements in the book.
As for Rav Moshe, he is saying that if tit says it's vegetable oil, it's
vegetable oil.Same as the LBD.
Besides look at the other sources I quoted.
And I just found this from KA.
http://www.ka.org.au/index.php/Halachic_Policy/Kashrut_
Status_of_Oils_in_Australia.html
Cheers,
Martin Brody
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120228/08f4eabc/attachment-0001.htm>

On 28/02/2012 2:31 PM, martin brody wrote:
> As for Rav Moshe, he is saying that if it says it's vegetable oil, it's vegetable oil.

No, that is a complete misrepresentation of the teshuvah.  Whatever
he's saying, it's not that.  The truth is that he doesn't actually give
his reasons for agreeing with his correspondent that the letter he received
from the company could be trusted; he merely refutes one line of reasoning
that the correspondent proposed, gives a lengthy discussion of another line
of reasoning, and then concludes that nevertheless the letter can be relied
on.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

--- On Tue, 2/28/12, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:



At 11:35 AM 2/28/2012, Jon Baker wrote:



Evolution is a fact, no matter how many Christian zealots like to? claim 
otherwise.? The descent of Man is the unproven hypothesis, the? idea that
natural selection is sufficient to explain the diversity of species? and
the development of? mankind.
If evolution is a fact,? then how come it is referred to as the Theory of Evolution and not the fact of evolution?
-----------------------------------------
?
Evolution is?a demonstrable fact. Evolution as the origin of species is a theory. That's what I think scientists mean by the "Theory of Evolution".
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120228/0c5c947f/attachment-0001.htm>

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> But back to our point... Shemitas kesafim doesn't apply to
> partnerships, and thus banks don't need to be corporate
> entities to be exempt. And I don't think halakhah has the
> notion of a business being more than an LP or LLP.

I didn't know that. And now I'm wondering how this would be implemented. And I suspect that this may go directly to the main question on this thread.

Suppose Reuven needs to borrow $1000. Shimon and Levi are each able to lend
him $500. How is their partnership created in halacha? What do they need to
do, in order to insure that the loan will survive shemitas kesafim? If they
each lend him $500, that will be two independent loans, each of which will
get cancelled. What do they need to do to form a parnership which is
capable of making one single loan of $1000?

Phrased another way: If you are telling me that "Shemitas kesafim doesn't
apply to partnerships", then I am suggesting that there might be no
difference between a partnership and a corporation. *IF* a parnership
creates a new entity distinct from the partners themselves, such that those
partners are not the lenders and are not forbidden to ask the borrower to
repay, *THEN* why would any of the partners have any responsibility for any
of the other obligations that the partnership might have incurred?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f4d1e4723a7116738aest04vuc

As R. Akiva observes, Mincha / Maariv minyanim are to be found in many
shuls across the spectrum.  In all the ones I have been at, Mincha is after
plag and Maariv is before nightfall.  In most (but not all cases), Mincha
is before sunset and Maariv is after sunset.

It is an interesting question if such minyanim should be condemned along
with Super Bowl adjustments and later Sunday morning Shacharit.

Dorron Katzin



On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 12:54, kennethgmil...@juno.com <
kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:

> If I understood R"n Toby Katz correctly, she is suggesting that there's
> little or no difference between:
>
> (A) a late Shacharis minyan on sunday, and
> (B) a half-time Maariv minyan for the superbowl.
>
> To some degree or another, either both are okay, or neither is okay. That
> is an amazing analysis. I've gotten so used to the late-sunday minyan that
> this comparison never occured to me. Thanks so much!
>
> Here's another situation which might be (pardon the pun) in the same
> ballpark: Allowing a combined Mincha-Maariv minyan in the same post-Plag
> and pre-Night block of time, which ought to be avoided, but is allowed
> simply to maximize minyan attendance. Basically it comes down to balancing
> the convenience and desires of the attendees, against the goals and ideals
> of Torah, does it not?
>
> Akiva Miller
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120228/41b00d6d/attachment-0001.htm>

"He [RYBS] writes the
co-education was the only way to get as many children into the school
as possible, and not an ideal he himself believed in."

Can you please give us the citation to where he writes this.  Thanks.

Joseph Kaplan

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120228/748f17de/attachment-0001.htm>

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 03:55:20PM -0500, Joseph C. Kaplan wrote:
:> He [RYBS] writes the
:> co-education was the only way to get as many children into the school
:> as possible, and not an ideal he himself believed in.

: Can you please give us the citation to where he writes this.  Thanks.

See the two letters RYBS wrote R' Leonard Rosenfeld of the Hebrew
Institute of Long Island (HILI). His defense of coed at HILI is pragmatic
despite ideology. His defense of gemara for women is more ideological,
but not for mixed classes.

Also, RYBS was vehemently against moving Stern (the women's college)
to Washington Heights (near RIETS and YC -- the men).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every second is a totally new world,
mi...@aishdas.org        and no moment is like any other.
http://www.aishdas.org           - Rabbi Chaim Vital
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 06:33:47PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: Suppose Reuven needs to borrow $1000. Shimon and Levi are each able
: to lend him $500. How is their partnership created in halacha? ...

That's not a partnership. Say, Shimon and Levi own a field together,
and before they divy up the profits from the crops they sell, they
lend $1000 of it to Reuven...

: Phrased another way: If you are telling me that "Shemitas kesafim
: doesn't apply to partnerships", then I am suggesting that there might
: be no difference between a partnership and a corporation...

The difference is that a corporation isn't simply a combination of its
owners. Stock ownership is treated as shutefus, and this raises issues
of owning stock in a company that owns basar bechalav or chameitz on
Pesach. 

And if the corporation dissolves, debts devolve to the former owners.

: *IF* a parnership creates a new entity distinct from the partners
: themselves...

My whole point is that it does not.

And that Western-style alleged corporations are halachic partnerships.
Although the bit about the former "partners" inheriting the debt probably
wouldn't apply because of DDD.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On 28/02/2012 1:22 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Actually, he quotes his father as saying that the sunset of ne'ilah is
> prettier than others.

How would he know?  Which Jew has ever seen it?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

rTK---
Some shuls in my neighborhood have Shacharis an hour later on  Sundays 
than other weekdays, and also start later on legal holidays


----  i assume  this  was  referring to  bedieved davening  times  during 
the week    ie  before  neitz. then there is  a clear  distinction for 
times when one is not going  to work, they don't need to daven  at a 
bedieved time.        of  course , for later  weekday minyanim, the 
justification  would have to be  that what they are doing during the week 
is ONLY because they are working.  presumably if retired, they  would 
daven all week at  Sunday time.....

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120228/09f2a3a3/attachment-0001.htm>

And the question I've raised before- if the pre/post shkia mincha maariv is
bdieved to ensure a minyan for maariv, when does a community stop it if
this is not a problem?	When does a ben torah leave after mincha and come
to a later maariv?
Kt
Joel rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

--- On Tue, 2/28/12, T6...@aol.com <T6...@aol.com> wrote:




>> The Super Bowl Maariv works quite handily with Halakhic Man....
?
The dialectic tension between homo-religiousus and cognitive man is
nothing more than the process by which one arrives at the state of
Halachic man.<< [--RHM]?
?
>>>>>
?
I would like to suggest that anyone who is not actually RYBS should refrain
from trying to sound like him.? It is better to?use plain everyday prose.?
The above sentence conveys no meaning and inadvertently comes out sounding
like a parody of a great man rather than a homage to him.? 
?
I also think it highly unlikely that RYBS would have approved of a shul changing its regular davening time to accommodate the Super Bowl... 
--------------------------------------
?
The last thing I would ever do is parody a man that I consider one of the
greatest people of the 20th century... a man who through his?philosophic
works?clarified to me?the essense of Yahadus.
?
As to your confusion about the terminolgy I used, I would reccommend that you study Halakhic Man. That would end your confusion. 
?
However I will briefly? (and inadequetly ) try to explain the terminology
used by the Rav and my own Rebbe RAS. Homo religiousus is someone who sees
only the spiritual world -?being blind to the physical world. Cognitive man
is someone who sees only the physical world through his 5 physical senses
-?and is blind to the spiritual world. Halakhic man emenates from the
dynamic tension that results from between these two contradictory?facets in
man. He sees and acknowledges the physical and applies the spiritual to
become the quintessntial Jew.
?
To answer your comment. I did not suggest that Halakhic Man would approve
of re-arranging a minyan to accomodate the super bowl. My point was that
Halakhik Man would see every circumstance through Halachic eyes. As it
pertians to the Superbowl and Maariv Halakhic man would see his obligation
to Daven Maariv with a Minyan as an imperative regardless of the
location.And would make sure to have a Minayn even at the cost of missing
part of the game he paid top dollar to attend). 
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20120228/0331c3e7/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 29, Issue 29
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."