Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 7

Thu, 29 Mar 2012

• 1. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not Be Done Orally (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not Be Done Orally (Harry Maryles)
• 3. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not Be Done Orally (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not Be (hankman)
• 5. Kashering counters (martin brody)
• 6. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not Be Done Orally (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Soft Matza (Dr. I. Balbin)
• 8. Re: Soft Matza (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Kashering counters (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 10. Re: Why is it necessary to Kasher counters/workbenches for Pesach? (Arie Folger)
• 11. Re: Why is it necessary to Kasher counters/workbenches for Pe sach? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 12. metzitza be'peh (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 13. How big is a kazayit? (Lisa Liel)
• 14. ?Kzayit?: Torah, as Real as it Gets (Prof. Levine)
• 15. Re: ?Kzayit?: Torah, as Real as it Gets (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Soft Matza (kennethgmil...@juno.com)

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 04:25:38PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> AIUI the Chassam Sofer did *not* allow the pipette, except in one case
> which was a sh'as had'chak.

The teshuvah is available at
<http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2010/04/rabbi-moshe-sofers-res
ponsum-on.html>.
It was only printed once, in Kokhavei Yitzchaq in 1845. So I appreciate
"Mississippi Fred MacDowell"'s taking the itime to scan it in and share
it on his blog.

The CS's teshuvah led the sho'el, his talmid R' Eliezer Horowitz, to
set policy for Vienna of metzitzah using a manual pressure and gauze. No
pipette, not even indirect use of peh, and not a one-time event.

In one of two follow-up letters, the CS writes that he permits MBP on
Shabbos because using the gauze involves chillul Shabbos.

I don't think your position is supported by the teshuvah itself. Because
of the limited circulation of the original text, there are active rumor
mills misrepresenting it. (An assertion I would think RZS agrees to, even
if he concludes that the misrepresentation is by a different rumor mill.)

The Maharam Schick appears to hold differently than his rebbe. However,
since he doesn't cite any of the CS's teshuvos, it's quite possible he
didn't know of them!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
mi...@aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson

--- On Wed, 3/28/12, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:


Realize that the health risk doesn't rise up to halachically significant
levels. There are a few cases of permanent harm among hundreds of
thousands of berisim. And while "even one is too many", the same is true
of traffic fatalities. More Jewish kinderlach die or are permanently
injured in car accidents, r"l. Do you think we have to assur letting
children cross the street, too?
-------------------------- 
?
This isn't about statistics. And yes one life gone for no reason is one life too many. Ask the parents that lost a child because of it.
?
So what if there is no statistical difference. Why do Chasidim have to be
frummer than the Chasam Sofer, R' Chaim... or any of the current Litvishe
Poskim like RSK? Why must they accept even a remote possibilty if it can be
prevented by using a perfectly legitimate Halachic alternative? What are
they so afraid of?
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

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Realize that the health risk doesn't rise up to halachically significant
levels. There are a few cases of permanent harm among hundreds of
thousands of berisim. And while "even one is too many", the same is true
of traffic fatalities. More Jewish kinderlach die or are permanently
injured in car accidents, r"l. Do you think we have to assur letting
children cross the street, too?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
==============================================
Sounds very actuarial, and I would agree except that imho the chillul
hashem issue is of concern. I don't know the calculus that one would use
here - certainly if having a bris were demonstrated to have a negligible
yet measureable additional risk, we'd have to do it anyway. Clearly (maybe
not) if serving arbes at a bris were viewed by society as a barbaric custom
which earned us tremendous enmity, we'd likely stop.  Where MBP fits seems
to be a question.
KT
Joel Rich
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The quote from RSK:

Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetzky, the rosh yeshiva and 
co-founder of the Talmudical Yeshiva of Philadelphia said that to the 
best of his knowledge, metzitza is done using a sterile pipette, in 
order to prevent any contact between the Mohel's mouth and the wound.

When asked if there were those who believe that metzitza cannot be 
performed using a tube, R' Kaminetzky stating unequivocally, "Nobody 
holds likes that" and expressed disbelief when told that there are 
rabbis who insist that metzitza must be done by mouth saying, "I 
don't think there is any response to them."

CM notes:

I think that when RSK states ?unequivocally, "Nobody holds likes that"? he
means even leshitasam if they hold that metzitza is a part of the mitsva,
(and not just meshum sakana as per the gemara)	even then they have no
mekor that the metzitza must be bepeh. This is pretty much what I had
posted in the thread on metzitza on Areivim on 3/20/2012 but got grief for
at that time. I am still not clear how RSK can say there are no cholkim ?
clearly there are those who differ.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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"I dont know any kitchens where hot [or even cold] chamets is put directly
onto the workbench surface.
As often as I have made this observation, the response is that stuff falls
off the platter onto the workbench.

Is that enough to require kashering the benchtop?

Meir G. Rabi"

No. Kli sheni doesn't absorb. And the pointless ubiquitous custom of
covering everything with foil comes from a time work tops were poorly made
wooden benches  and real chametz would fall through the many cracks and
present a real problem

Martin Brody
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On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 01:51:59PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: On Wed, 3/28/12, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
:> Realize that the health risk doesn't rise up to halachically significant
:> levels. There are a few cases of permanent harm among hundreds of
:> thousands of berisim....

: This isn't about statistics. And yes one life gone for no reason is
: one life too many. Ask the parents that lost a child because of it.

Recall, the people you're trying to convince pasqen that metzitzah is
part of milah, and therefore you're asking them to change how beris
milah was done since Moshe Rabbeinu.

So, in order to matir, you need to invoke safeiq piquach nefesh. Which
means it doesn't need to be a rov, but it does have to be a milsa
shekhichah. One in a hundred thousand doesn't qualify.

If you believe otherwise, can you think of another case where we matired
something because of piquach nefesh with that kind of statistics against
the saqanah? AFAIK, it really is actuarial. (Thanks RJR, for the word.)


: So what if there is no statistical difference. Why do Chasidim have
: to be frummer than the Chasam Sofer, R' Chaim... or any of the current
: Litvishe Poskim like RSK? ...

What kind of argument is this? We should always hold lequlah if the
poseiq who states it is noted enough? (Eat swordfish... Who are you to
be frummer than the Noda biYhudah, the Pischei Teshuvah or the Arukh
haShulchan?!) I thought you're supposed to follow your OWN poseiq,
your own mesorah. (The Rambam's haqdamah says as much too...)

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 04:57:53PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Sounds very actuarial, and I would agree except that imho the chillul
: hashem issue is of concern...
:     - certainly if having a bris were demonstrated to have a negligible
: yet measureable additional risk, we'd have to do it anyway....
: Where MBP fits seems to be a question.

Not to the people who insist on MBP. AIUI, they hold metzitzah is
me'aqeiv, and metzitzah bepeh is the only form of metzitzah we have a
mesorah of doing. Therefore, they see themselves in the same situation
as your "certainly".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

> From: Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com>
> 
> I manufacture soft Matza that keeps fresh for months. The local rabbis are
> not happy.
> I would appreciate any thoughts.


As I recall, this topic was raised last year, but not withstanding  that ...

1. If my memory is correct, R' Schachter mentioned that there are Sfardim
who know how to make the soft matza under hechsher and they have an
unbroken Mesora, and he couldn't see any reason why an Ashkenazi who wanted
to use their soft matza could not do so

2. If my memory is correct, the issue transcends local (Melbourne) Rabbis.
I recall seeing a letter (I can't recall from whom, it may have been R'
Wosner?) where R' Wosner said your Matzohs were Chametz

3. I wonder if there is a connection between this issue and that of knowing
how to Treyber the hind portion of a Behema. The Sefardim have an unbroken
Mesora on how to do it, but it seems that Ashkenazim are unwilling to learn
from Sefardim and adopt that. Certainly in Melbourne, you can't get it, and
I know there was someone who had Shimush from Sefardim in Yerushalayim on
how to Treyber it, and the (Ashkenazi) Rabonim didn't allow it.

4. Personally, for what it's worth, I'm machmir to only eat *machine* shmura all of pesach.

5. R' Aviner is a great man who achieves an immense amount, but he isn't
considered a major Posek for the Dati Leumi (just for the record). At least
that's my impression.

6. The local Rabbinate in Melbourne apparently had a multiplicity of
reasons why they oppose these particular Soft Matzos.  I don't think they
have given their reasons, but note, a Rav does not have to give his
reasons. I understand the Rav, R' Y.D. Soloveitchik used to pasken a lot
this way; he didn't elaborate etc

7. My advice is that no amount of marketing and persuasion will convince
people your Laffa Matzos are okay. Those that trust you and your hashgocho
will eat them, those that have rigid Pesach Mesoras (most of us do; eg, I
don't eat Garlic although I can't see why not, nor do I eat herring, and I
can't see why not etc) will not be swayed. Those who are less tied to
family custom AND who trust you as a Rabbinic authority will eat your
Matzos.

8. Now, if you had the OU or the Badatz or Star K or similar come and
oversee your overall operation and give their imprimatur, it is possible
some people over time will eat them. Why not do that? Isn't that better for
business?

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:16:21AM +1100, Dr. I. Balbin wrote:
: 1. If my memory is correct, R' Schachter mentioned that there are
: Sfardim who know how to make the soft matza under hechsher and they have
: an unbroken Mesora, and he couldn't see any reason why an Ashkenazi who
: wanted to use their soft matza could not do so

When I spoke to RHS about using matzah made by the Syrian community in
Flatbush, Brooklyn, I do not recall mention of any special know-how. If
they make matzah following the same rules as for not giving it time to
rise, then it's matzah.

Therefore, I do not share your wonder when you write:
: 3. I wonder if there is a connection between this issue and that of
: knowing how to Treyber the hind portion of a Behema. The Sefardim have
: an unbroken Mesora on how to do it, but it seems that Ashkenazim are
: unwilling to learn from Sefardim and adopt that...

AIUI, Ashkenazim aren't acting here from a lack of transmission of some
special skill, but from a nervousness about error.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Meir Rabi:
"I dont know any kitchens where hot [or even cold] chamets is put directly
onto the workbench surface.
---------------



KT,
MYG

RMRabi asked:
> I dont know any kitchens where hot [or even cold] chamets is put directly
> onto the workbench surface.
> As often as I have made this observation, the response is that stuff falls
> off the platter onto the workbench.
>
> Is that enough to require kashering the benchtop?

Well, it depends on how you define noten ta'am lifgam assur for
Pessach. The Maharil, in requiring that trivets or tripods be
kashered, would concur that countertops be kashered, but the matter is
subject to a major machlokes. See OC452 IIRC.

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger

R' Meir Rabi asked:

> I dont know any kitchens where hot [or even cold] chamets is put
> directly onto the workbench surface.
> As often as I have made this observation, the response is that
> stuff falls off the platter onto the workbench.
> Is that enough to require kashering the benchtop?

As I read this question, RMR seems to concede that hot chometz does
occasionally fall off the platter onto the workbench, and he is asking
whether that is enough to require kashering. As I read the Mechaber 451:20,
the answer would be, "Yes, exactly."

The Mishneh Brurah there is even stricter than the Mechaber, and he
explains his reasoning is because of those who "occasionally - l'faamim"
place a hot pashtida directly on the table.

But even those who always use plates, and *never* place hot chometz
directly on the table, still need to be concerned about the occasional soup
or pasta which spills from the plate onto the table, as the Mechaber did.

In contrast, I have seen several places (such as Rav Shimon Eider, pg 172)
which say that a baby's high chair is an example of a table where hot food
is *never* brought, and therefore does not need any kashering (though it
does still need to be cleaned and/or covered because of what gets stuck to
it).

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
The New "Skinny" Fruit
How This Strange 62-Cent African Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f7478052e77127a9af9st06vuc

>R' David Niederman, executive director and president of the United 
Jewish Organizations of Williamsburg, insisted that the September 
death of an infant was completely unrelated to metzitza b'peh, 
telling The Jewish Week that the custom has never caused either death 
or an infection.

"We will continue to make metzitzah b'peh," said R' Niederman.

Yet another instance in which Chassidus goes it own way.  YL


-------  i wonder if this has implications on the issue of  chazal, 
science , and metzius. i am not  sure that there is any level of 
scientific  data [eg DNA typing of the viral cultures] that could change 
such a posek's opinion ---even if it rises to the level of 'beyond a 
reasonable doubt'  [jury]  standards.



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http://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/kzayit-torah-as-real-as-it-ge
ts/2012/03/29/ 

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 From http://tinyurl.com/7887hz9  This article is 
written by Rabbi David Bar-Hayim is the head of 
Machon Shilo, a centre of Jewish learning in 
Jerusalem dedicated to the exposition and 
dissemination of Torat Eretz Yisrael. The 
teachings of Rabbi Bar-Hayim may be found at www.machonshilo.org

Rashi almost certainly never saw an olive. The 
same goes for other medieval authorities in 
Ashk?naz (Germany-Northern France). This 
little-known but indisputable fact should matter 
to you. It has everything to do with the 
following question: Is Halakhic Judaism rational 
and rooted in reality, or is it a hypothetical 
construct unconducive to engaging the real world?

It is a simple matter to ascertain, or describe 
to another, the volume of an average olive, a 
?k?zayit??provided you have olives. But what if 
you have never seen an olive? How would you 
understand the concept? How would you describe it 
to someone unfamiliar with olives?

Medieval Ashk?nazim were unfamiliar with olives, 
a fact confirmed by R. Eliezer b. Yoel?s (d. 
circa 1225) discussion of the minimal amount 
required for a b?rakha aharona: ?Wherever a 
k?zayith is required, one needs a sizeable amount 
of food, because we are unfamiliar with the size 
of an olive?? (Ra?avya, B?rakhoth 107).

Some Ashk?nazi authorities concluded that an 
olive was half the volume of an egg, while others 
demonstrated, based on Talmudic sources, that it 
must be less than one third of an egg. How much 
less they could not say. The truth, of course, is 
different, as was clearly perceived by one 14th 
century authority who actually made it to Eretz 
Yisrael. Responding to the proposition that a 
person could swallow three k?zaytim at once 
(which is quite impossible if one assumes a 
k?zayit to be half of an egg in volume) he wrote: 
?As for me, the matter is plain, for I saw olives 
in Eretz Yisrael and Yerushalayim, and even six 
were not equal to an egg.? S?pharadi authorities, 
on the other hand, had no such difficulties. One 
wrote that an olive is ?much less? than a quarter 
of an egg (Rashba), while another mentions in 
passing that a dried fig is equal to ?several 
olives? (Rittba). The last three statements, made 
by sages who saw olives, are entirely accurate.

See the above URL for the rest of this article.  YL
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On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 01:50:51PM -0400, Prof. Levine quoted R' David
Bar-Haym's article in the Jewish Press (which Lisa also pointed to).

One prefacing thought:
> From http://tinyurl.com/7887hz9  This article is written by Rabbi David 
> Bar-Hayim is the head of Machon Shilo, a centre of Jewish learning in  
> Jerusalem dedicated to the exposition and dissemination of Torat Eretz 
> Yisrael. The teachings of Rabbi Bar-Hayim may be found at 
> www.machonshilo.org

RDBH and Machon Shilo represent a very idiosyncratic notion of how
halakhah works. E.g. RDBH published Nusach EY siddurim, based on quotes
from the Y-mi and snippets found in the Cairo Geniza. (The Geniza has
remains of numerous different siddurim, so I'm not sure how RDBH chose
between them in cases where the Y-mi doesn't quote something only in
one.) Point being, everyone else (Yekkes to Yemenites) davens in various
evolutionary descendents of R' Amram Gaon's siddur, but RDBH doesn't
consider that binding, now on our return to EY.

I think this is very relevent here....

> Rashi almost certainly never saw an olive. The same goes for other 
> medieval authorities in Ashk?naz (Germany-Northern France)....

RNSlifkin's recurring theme as well.

> It is a simple matter to ascertain, or describe to another, the volume of 
> an average olive, a 'k'zayit'...provided you have olives...

And providing you don't think breeding could have changed things.
Do you want to compare my teens' favorite Asti with the wine chazal had
to dilute and often sweeten or spice in order to make drinkable? If the
grape changed that much, we need proof to know that olives hadn't.

Lemaaseh, we have pits from Masadah and pits from olives of similar
breeds grown today. We have strong indication they haven't changed. I am
objecting to the argument and the attitude it betrays, not the conclusion.

When rishonim hold differently than what you consider obvious, shouldn't
the first step be to explore ways in which you might be wrong?

But my real objection is to the opening question: "Is Halakhic Judaism
rational and rooted in reality, or is it a hypothetical construct
unconducive to engaging the real world?" False dichotomy. I would assert
that halachic Judaism is rational, and rooted in what shapes souls, what
promotes self-refinement, closeness to G-d, and redemption. Realities,
albeit not empirical ones.

RYBS, in Lonely Man of Faith, points to Adam I's (Cognitive Man, man
as pinacle of creation whose calling is that of Adam in Bereishis 1 --
"veqivshuha) success at science and technology as a common cause for
confusing the domain science studies with the totality of reality.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
mi...@aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
mi...@aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson

R' Meir Rabi wrote:
> Why and when did Matza become hard? Matza used to be a home-baked,
> soft product. It was baked daily during Pesach. However, Matza
> production eventually moved out of our homes. We also stopped
> baking it during Pesach. It was all manufactured prior to Pesach.
> That is when, in order to prolong its "shelf-life" and prevent it
> from becoming mouldy, it became necessary to bake it dry.

Is this really the only reason? For a very long time, the reason I
learned was that this is just another in a long line of chumros adopted
for chametz and matza.

It is no different than our not doing chalita nowadays, which (IIRC)
is a sort of "flash-boiling" of grain, which totally cooks the grain
before it has a chance to become chometz. In theory it works, but we
worry that we might not do it correctly, rendering the grain chometz.

Similarly, our practice is to never let the matza dough rest at all, AND
to get it into the oven within 18 minutes. The actual halacha is that
EITHER of these would be enough, but because we worry that the dough's
internal heat (caused by the kneading) might cause it to become chometz
immediately if we'd let it sit at all.

Similarly, I was taught that although the halacha is to allow matza even
up to a tefach thick, our practice (please note that I am not using the
word "minhag") is to minimize the possibility of chometz by baking the
matzos very thin.

> Halacha (ShO Siman 461) tells us that Matza is baked when there are
> no stringy doughy threads stretched between pieces of a Matza that
> has been torn apart. Alternatively, we see if any dough sticks to a
> skewer poked into the Matza. Try poking a hard Matza with a skewer.
> Clearly, these tests apply to soft Matza only and were applied to
> Exodus soft Matza.

My experience seems to be different than RMR's.

When I was in yeshiva, and our chabura went to bake our hand matzas,
I was assigned the job of being one of the checkers. The fresh matzos
came out of the oven, and the Rosh Yeshiva taught us what to look for,
and what to do with the problematic ones. In many cases, most of the
matza was okay, but a certain area needed to be removed, along with a
one-etzba radius around that area.

If the matzos would have been as crispy as RMR describes, it would have
been very difficult to break the matza efficiently. But my experience
was that in the first couple of minutes after the matza leaves the oven,
it was still soft enough that it was very easy to poke a hole in it,
and then tear away those parts which needed to be discarded.

I suspect that this ease was *not* due to the matza still being warm,
but due to it still being slightly *moist*, and in those first couple
of minutes, the residual moisture evaporated. In any case, the skewer
test described by RMR would not have been difficult to do. (In fact,
I have vague memories of tearing off a problematic piece of the matza,
and finding threads of the type he describes.)


R' Meir Rabi mentioned the website http://www.realmatza.com
One of the pages on that site
(http://www.realmatza.com/coconut-shell.html) says the following:

> ... Such large volumes required that manufacturing begin many
> weeks before Passover. How was the Matza to be prevented from
> becoming mouldy?

> The solution was dehydration; simply bake it dry, employing an
> age old method of preserving foods without refrigeration. It was
> a compromise, but seen as being the best outcome, considering the
> circumstances.

> And that, my friends, is the story of, How Matza Became a Brick.

Several words here -- like dehydration and preserving -- made me think
of hardtack. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardtack for a description
and several photos of this food, whose ingredients are almost the same
as matzah, and which lasts a very long time because it is so dry.

But when I look at the pictures (try Google Images for even more photos),
it seems to me that hardtack is considerably thinker than matzah. It's
not nearly the tefach thick which halacha allows, but still, it seems
to be a good 5-10 mm or so -- much thicker than matza wafers.

To me, this is good evidence that preservation is NOT the main reason
we've switched from soft matza to hard wafers. If preservation WAS the
main reason, it would not need to be quite this thin. Then what IS the
reason for making it so thin? I suggest that the thinness is primarily
for chometz-prevention, enabling the dough to be baked very quickly.

Akiva Miller


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