Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 13

Tue, 03 Apr 2012

• 1. women leading the seder (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Chief Rabbi Metzger: Women can lead Seder (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Re: The Shul, the Caterer, and the Kiddush Signs (Michael Kopinsky)
• 4. Re: torah and mada conference (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: Chief Rabbi Metzger: Women can lead Seder (Micha Berger)
• 6. Taamei haMitzvos (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: two fictional sects (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 8. Re: two fictional sects (Micha Berger)
• 9. Theoretical and Real Shiurim (Micha Berger)
• 10. Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Beth & David Cohen)
• 11. Re: Taamei haMitzvos (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: two fictional sects (Lisa Liel)
• 13. Re: two fictional sects (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Micha Berger)
• 16. Stopping Saying Mashiv Haruach (Liron Kopinsky)
• 17. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Zev Sero)
• 18. Re: two fictional sects (David Riceman)
• 19. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Liron Kopinsky)
• 20. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Micha Berger)

<< > ?People think that in deference to modesty, they should forbid
> women from reading aloud. Many religious people do not know it,
> but there is actually a law [against this],? Metzger told Israel
> Hayom on Saturday night.

Gerer chassidim seem to have a minhag that women eat in the kitchen if
there are outside guests (including cousins etc.)
Does this hold also for Seder or perhaps no one has someone outside of the
immediate family?
Certainly in my seder we have several married children and so the
grandchildren are cousins to each other

-- 
Eli Turkel
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> "People think that in deference to modesty, they should forbid
> women from reading aloud. Many religious people do not know it,
> but there is actually a law [against this]," Metzger told Israel
> Hayom on Saturday night.

R' Micha Berger asked:

> So, does RYM expect women to make zimun with men around to? If
> not, vos iz der chiluq (VIDC)?

Maybe he does; I don't know. But if not, I would suggest that the chiluq is
that Chazal specifically exempted the women from zimun, but never did
anything close to that regarding Maggid.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
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On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

> Please see http://tinyurl.com/6lnw6ms
>

This article focuses on the hilchos shabbos questions, but I find the
choshen mishpat questions far more interesting.

I assume that if they had a contract or other stipulated agreement, that
would be the primary if only factor for deciding who can do what in the
shul. (Not having such an agreement seems irresponsible to my naive eyes,
but ok.) In the absence of such an agreement, does the caterer have a right
to remove flyers or the like?

KT,
Michael
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Responding to several requests.
There are printed abstracts for every talk but nothing longer.
They took videos of some talks, I am trying to find out if they will be
make publically available

kol tuv

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 04:56:28PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
:> So, does RYM expect women to make zimun with men around to? If
:> not, vos iz der chiluq (VIDC)?

: Maybe he does; I don't know. But if not, I would suggest that the
: chiluq is that Chazal specifically exempted the women from zimun...

That's Tosafos's resolution of a contradiction between Eirachin 3a,
which includes women in the chiyuv zimun, and Berachos 45a which says
they may not make a zimun. The next amud, 45b, says they do -- which
isn't clearly a chiyuv. The Beis Yoseif also holds it's optional.

Not so the Rosh or Roqeiach -- who hold that in the absense of men making
a zimun, 3 women are mechuyavos to make their own.

Given that it's a machloqes rishonim, I would think RYM's sevara can
be taken to lean to one side over the other. Again, unless he defines
a chiluq between birchas hamazon and sippur yetzi'as Mitzrayim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

I'm not sure what this implies WRT how we should approach taamei
hamitzvos. But...

On Y-mi Megillah 12:1 12a, R' Chiyah bar Ba, R Chiyyah besheim R' Yochanan
say that it's a halakhah leMosheh miSinai that when you sow together the
dafim of a seifer Torah, you must leave unsown area on top or on bottom,
so that it does not tear.

They [presumably the audience] or mochi lei -- if it's HLMS, what is
this talk about not tearing, and if it's so that the seifer Torah doesn't
ch"v tear, why is it HLMS? (No answer, the Y-mi moves on to list more
halakhos LMS about making sifrei Torah.)

So, every HLMS must be a choq?

Also, what does this say about metzitzah? Would the Y-mi not discuss the
health advantage of metzitzah if it were deOraisa? Not overly relevent,
because even if it wouldn't, we would have to show the Bavli assumes the
same. Just intriguing, at least to me.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' David Riceman asked about:

> Sect number one argues as follows:
> ...
> Furthermore, they argue that the issur of being makriv korban
> Pesah on a bamah applies only to a bamas yahid, and since
> theirs is the only valid bamah in the world, it is the bamas
> tzibbur.
>
> It follows that they sacrifice korban Pesah every year.

I know close to nothing about the halachos of bamos, but in your scenario,
is there anything to stop someone from building a second bamah, so that the
first will no longer be the bamas tzibur?

> Sect number two argues as follows:
>
> The authority of the kehillah comes either top down, from a
> grant of authority from the king, or bottom up, from a grant
> of authority from its inhabitants.  The authority of previous
> generations to bind later generations is mediated by the kehillah:
> if someone moves to a town with a different custom he is not
> bound by his old town's customs, and, ...
>
> They establish a new town where only dinim d'orayysa apply,
> arguing that the whole authority of derabbanans disappear
> without consent. ...

To me, this sounds like a reasonable way of disposing of all minhagim, but
I don't see how it works for d'rabanans. The authority for d'rabanans comes
neither from the king nor the populace, but from the Torah itself, via its
duly authorized semuchim. The line between d'rabanan and minhag may get
fuzzy in places, but it does exist.

And even if we are talking about minhagim, I really don't know what the
king has to do with anything. If the king puts a rav in power who the
populace does not accept, then they might have to follow his rulings as a
matter of practicality, but I don't see how that would make it binding on
future generations.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
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On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 08:05:39PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> The Americas, because they intersect a westward line drawn from Israel,  
> are considered iyei hayam and hence part of EY according to R. Yehudah,  
> whose opinion they follow.  Furthermore, they argue that when the Mishna  
> says about bamos "v'lo haysah lahem od hechsher", it means up to the  
> time that that Mishna was composed.  But afterwards, when there was no  
> unitary source of hora'ah, that din no longer applied, and so bamos are  
> mutar in the Western hemisphere.  Furthermore, they argue that the issur  
> of being makriv korban Pesah on a bamah applies only to a bamas yahid,  
> and since theirs is the only valid bamah in the world, it is the bamas  
> tzibbur.

This is actually the topic currently in Y-mi Yomi -- Megillah 1:11,
"Ein bein bamah gedolah lebamah qetanah ela pesachim". Bamah gedolah
refers to the mishkan. There is a machloqes whether there is an implied
"bilvad". R' Yudah (15b) holds chatas as well is only brought on a bamah
gedolah. The Rabanan say you can make on a bamah qetanah any voluntary
qorban. Thus, Shofetim speaks of the era when "is *hayashar be'einav*
ya'aseh" -- there was no Mishkan Shilo yet, so people brought whichever
of the qorbanos they were moved to on their own.

(Resulting issues... E.g. What about a nazir? Nezirus is voluntary,
but once he is a nazir, the qorbanos are not. Go see the sugya, this is
tangential to RDR's question.)

> It follows that they sacrifice korban Pesah every year.

Anyway, at the very least it would seem that these people would bring
chataos too.

But there is a discussion of the issur bamah, and this hypothetical
tribe couldn't hold like the Y-mi anyway. The pasuq is "i lo batem
ad atah el hamenuchah ve'el hanachalah". There is a machloqes (18a)
"is TENAYEI TANI", ie citing tanaim, whether menuchah is Shilo and the
nachalah Y-m, or the other way around. But it's clear that they hold
that after the BHMQ in Y-m, the pasuq says bamos are over.


> The authority of the kehillah comes either top down, from a grant of  
> authority from the king, or bottom up, from a grant of authority from  
> its inhabitants.  The authority of previous generations to bind later  
> generations is mediated by the kehillah: if someone moves to a town with  
> a different custom he is not bound by his old town's customs, and, a  
> fortiori, if he establishes a new town he is not bound unless he agrees  
> to be bound.

I don't think this holds if the individual moves to a place that has
no minhag.

See Pesachim 50a-51a. (Yes, Bavli. Although there are parallel sugyos in
the Y-mi.) This is why we in the real US, where meqomos have no minhagim,
we ARE bound to minhag avos.

You don't say where their history diverges from the real one. But I would
conclude that if it's around the time of the mishnah or Y-mi, they would
also have this notion of minhag avos in the absence of minhag hamaqom.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 09:31:19PM -0400, R Moshe Y. Gluck wrote to
Areivim:
: So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the CI would
: measure the matzah by stretching his hand out. Exactly. :-)

(The smiley makes no sense without context, but...)

As already discussed to death repeatedly on Avodah, the CC did not
measure out his own shiurim at the seder. I spoke to the yarshan of the
kos the CC used for the sedarim. Just under 3.5 oz. Compare that to the
BH 271:13 about doubling measurements, where he says you're yotzei with
one, but preferably...

This was among R' Seth Mandel's examples set to show that the MB discussed
theory, and its primary author tended to follow minhag Litta even when
different.

Which leads me to ask... Do we know if the CI followed his own shiurim
lemaaseh, or did he measure matzah by thinking "well, that's certainly
at least as much as my father" -- the Kosover Rav -- "would have eaten"?
Was he more of a textualist than the CC?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

"This is a case where the Chassidim are the ones NOT changing. They are
doing what the gemara, the rishonim, the Maharil did, and Yekkes and
Litvaks are the ones who are doing something new.
Chassidim aren't doing the "going", we are. And how to mechadeshim have
the right to force others to accept their pesaq?"
_____

Are you saying that metzitza b'peh is a halachic imperative, i.e. that the
milah is not kosher without it?
Or is this a l'chatchila, and wouldn't sakanot nefashot take precedence?

Citing halachic authorities centuries old is of no moment if those poskim
were operating under the mistaken impression that metzitza was actually a
benefit in the healing process. That is, unless you can show that the p'sak
of the requirement of metzitza was operative irregardless of any the
supposed health benefits.

David I. Cohen
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On 3/04/2012 1:40 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> They [presumably the audience] or mochi lei -- if it's HLMS, what is
> this talk about not tearing, and if it's so that the seifer Torah doesn't
> ch"v tear, why is it HLMS? (No answer, the Y-mi moves on to list more
> halakhos LMS about making sifrei Torah.)
>
> So, every HLMS must be a choq?

See http://3x4.7u.sl.pt
??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????, ????? ???? ??, ??? ???? ???????
  ???? ????? ?????, ???? ???? ????, ???? ???? ?????.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 4/3/2012 1:50 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> See Pesachim 50a-51a. (Yes, Bavli. Although there are parallel sugyos in
> the Y-mi.) This is why we in the real US, where meqomos have no minhagim,
> we ARE bound to minhag avos.
>    

I have a problem with that.  After all, how did German Jewry get its 
minhag?  How did Spanish Jewry get its?  Presumably, when Jews got 
there, there was no minhag.  But they couldn't all go by minhag avot, 
because that could differ from person to person.

Lisa

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 02:07:09PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I have a problem with that.  After all, how did German Jewry get its  
> minhag?  How did Spanish Jewry get its?  Presumably, when Jews got  
> there, there was no minhag.  But they couldn't all go by minhag avot,  
> because that could differ from person to person.

I think they did exactly what we're seeing now in the US and Israel.
People do follow minhag avos, or at least try to in general, but slowly
norms are emerging. Not through any conscious effort, just drift. If
I thought galus would last another 150-200 yrs, ch"v, I would suggest
that some day there would be a Minhag America, much like the Seph and
Ashk precedents.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 02:55:28PM -0400, Beth & David Cohen wrote:
: Are you saying that metzitza b'peh is a halachic imperative, i.e. that the
: milah is not kosher without it?

I am saying the people who insider on metzitzah bepeh believe that
a circumcision without metzitzah is not a beris milah. The boy, even
bedi'eved, is an areil. Basically what you write, but I'm saying it's
their position; I myself don't hold this way.

: Citing halachic authorities centuries old is of no moment if those poskim
: were operating under the mistaken impression that metzitza was actually a
: benefit in the healing process. That is, unless you can show that the p'sak
: of the requirement of metzitza was operative irregardless of any the
: supposed health benefits....

Well, they have sources that list the metaphysical benefits -- which is
why it's Chassidim and Sepharadim who are most adament.

I should also point out that those who advocate for a pipette rather
than the CS's sponge or gauze (my translation skills are imperfect)
are doing so because they are at least being chosheshin for metzitzah
bepeh being mandatory -- but hold that via a tube is still "bepeh". For
that matter, even the CS requires (or is being chosheish that we might
need to require) metzitzah, he's saying that "bepeh" isn't mandatory.
The idea isn't trivially dismissed by any of the parties.

For that matter, they knew that pressure applied to a cloth would draw
blood back when Avraham first entered the beris. Bloodletting is not
usually oral. Why did doing metzitzah bedavqa bepeh get started?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 02:41:26PM -0400, hankman wrote:
: Walking home from shul I mentioned this thread to a prominent Rov
: in town, (not named as I did not ask if I could quote him publicly on
: this) he responded that for pikuach nefesh there is no lower limit
: -- mephakchin olov es hagal if there is the SLIGHTEST chance the
: man is still living -- without concern for the issur Shabbos...

I do not believe anyone means "slightest" literally, if they thought
about it. Try posing to this "prominent rav" (I have anonymity!) the
comparison I did: Is it assur to cross the street? Is it assur to let
our children cross the street -- or must we cross them until they get
old enough to move away?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

In Israel, we start saying Mashiv Haruach 2 weeks after Shmini Atzeret to
give the people who made Aliya laRegel an opportunity to return to their
homes.

Why don't we stop saying Mashiv Haruach 2 weeks before Pesach for the same
reason?

My presumption is that it has something to do with the need for a public
hachraza on both Shmini Atzeret and Pesach to notify people that the change
is happening (either now or in 2 weeks) and that can't work retroactively
from Pesach to Rosh Chodesh Nissan.

Kol Tuv,

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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On 3/04/2012 3:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I do not believe anyone means "slightest" literally, if they thought
> about it. Try posing to this "prominent rav" (I have anonymity!) the
> comparison I did: Is it assur to cross the street? Is it assur to let
> our children cross the street -- or must we cross them until they get
> old enough to move away?

Forget about children.  What about ourselves?  How is this rov walking
home from shul?  Doesn't he know that there is a slight risk of being
hurt or killed on the way?

Besides which, he is contradicting an explicit pasuk, that one has the
right to risk ones life to make money.  "Ve'eilav hu nosei es nafsho."
That is a risk that is significant enough that the Torah makes mention
of it, and yet it is explicitly permitted.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

RMB:

<<I don't think this holds if the individual moves to a place that has 
no minhag. See Pesachim 50a-51a.>>

Could we be more precise about which sugya?

<<(Yes, Bavli. Although there are parallel sugyos in the Y-mi.) This is 
why we in the real US, where meqomos have no minhagim, we ARE bound to 
minhag avos.>>

Even the sugya of Benei Bayshan is talking about the inhabitants of a 
town, not the children of a parent.

<< You don't say where their history diverges from the real one.>>

Late 1800s, founded by Messianic revisionists from a fictional town in 
Czarist Russia (more detail unspecified).  Would you claim that the town 
was founded based on a minhag taus? What would the current inhabitants 
do then? After all, the descendants have no connection to the European 
town or its minhagim.  Where does their obligation come from? Why should 
they adopt someone's strange minhagim?

David Riceman

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> I am saying the people who insider on metzitzah bepeh believe that
> a circumcision without metzitzah is not a beris milah. The boy, even
> bedi'eved, is an areil. Basically what you write, but I'm saying it's
> their position; I myself don't hold this way.
>

How would they hold bizman beit hamikdash (sheyibane bimheira beyameinu)?
Would they require people to present certification that their mila was done
correctly before joining with their korban?

Kol Tuv,
Liron
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On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 02:13:30PM -0600, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: Would they require people to present certification that their mila was done
: correctly before joining with their korban?

I presume they would say kohanim relied on chazaqah. Much the way we
don't worry about the lishmah of a sefer Torah, or "rov metzuyim
eitzel shechitah mumchim heim."

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


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