Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 37

Thu, 10 May 2012

• 1. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Zev Sero)
• 2. Recording people without their knowledge (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 3. Re: forcing a GET (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: forcing a GET (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Recording people without their knowledge (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Samuel Svarc)
• 9. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: forcing a GET (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: forcing a GET (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng? (hankman)
• 14. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Samuel Svarc)
• 15. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: forcing a GET (Zev Sero)
• 18. Re: Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng? (Zev Sero)

On 10/05/2012 1:42 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> See also Rashi ad loc:
>      Ve'al tadur be'ir...:
>      Detarud begirseih velo bemilei detzibura.
>
> Isn't Rashi saying that a TC who spends his time with texts lacks the
> knowledge of what's going on in the society in question to be a good
> leader?

No, I think he simply means that a TC is likely to neglect his public
responsibilities through a reluctance to take time from learning, and
necessary public improvements will not get done, or will take longer
than they should.  He's not talking about dayonim, he's talking about
the mayor and the public works department.  There may not be a Republican
and a Democratic way of filling pot-holes, but there is apparently a TC
way, which is to learn another blatt gemoro and forget about the problem.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

FYI recording people without their consent is illegal and one could be criminally charged for doing so.
This applies to audio recording. Video recording (without audio) is legal in most states.
Hence, dina dmalchusa dina.
As far as v'ahavta l'reyecha kamocha, I agree that would be another reason.
I doubt if the average person would appreciate being recorded without his or her knowledge.
Again, let it be clear, that recording people without their knowledge is ILLEGAL!
ri

On 10/05/2012 3:00 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> And I didn't speak of imprisonment, I spoke of the threat of imprisonment.
> Please reread what I did write.
>
> A man going to a rabbanut endorsed beis din knows that they lock people
> up. That knowledge alone is the compulsian I'm talking about.

How so?  If he knows that he has not done anything that allows a BD to
compel a get, then he knows that he is in no danger of imprisonment,
unless the BD is dishonest.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 02:39:47PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> No, I think he simply means that a TC is likely to neglect his public
> responsibilities through a reluctance to take time from learning, and
> necessary public improvements will not get done, or will take longer
> than they should.  He's not talking about dayonim, he's talking about
> the mayor and the public works department....

He's talking about "rasheiha" (to quote R' Aqiva). The mayor and so
on. Not sure about public works, though.

The notion of daas Torah is about applying emunas chakhamim to questions
that revolve around metzi'us, rather than Torah. And I think R' Aqiva
here says it's not a good idea.

I don't see "yitrod" (Zev's answer), nor "TC she'eino tarid" (as per
Lisa's). To me it seems clear that a TC shouldn't be appointed to lead
the city because he invested the time to know Torah, and therefore can't
run a city as well as someone who spent more time knowing society.

But my point about R Aqiva disrecommending relying on DT stands even
if I were able to see his objection as an inability to invest the time
going forward, and would work even better if I thought R' Aqiva was
speaking only of a TC who isn't also a baqi in civil matters. (Rather
than, as it looks to me, assuming no TC could be.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 33rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Hod: LAG B'OMER - What is total
Fax: (270) 514-1507               submission to truth, and what results?

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 03:04:41PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> How so?  If he knows that he has not done anything that allows a BD to
> compel a get, then he knows that he is in no danger of imprisonment,
> unless the BD is dishonest.

Because everyone knows that BD will find the truth and is so sure of the
case and that they pasqen as he would that baalei din aren't worried of
negative outcomes? Besides, the outcome also depends on things that don't
happen until after he gets to court.

The only people who go to court saying that it was no big deal, because
the truth is with them are people trying to convince themselves.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 10/05/2012 3:17 PM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> FYI recording people without their consent is illegal and one could be
> criminally charged for doing so.

Only in California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland,
Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania,
and Washington.

[Among the states in the US. This email list is global, too. -micha]

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On 10/05/2012 3:41 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> He's talking about "rasheiha" (to quote R' Aqiva). The mayor and so
> on. Not sure about public works, though.

"Rasheha" means those who take care of the city.  Those who fill the
potholes and make sure the garbage is collected.  Not those who judge
cases.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 02:39:47PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> No, I think he simply means that a TC is likely to neglect his public
>> responsibilities through a reluctance to take time from learning, and
>> necessary public improvements will not get done, or will take longer
>> than they should. ?He's not talking about dayonim, he's talking about
>> the mayor and the public works department....
>
> He's talking about "rasheiha" (to quote R' Aqiva). The mayor and so
> on. Not sure about public works, though.
>
> The notion of daas Torah is about applying emunas chakhamim to questions
> that revolve around metzi'us, rather than Torah. And I think R' Aqiva
> here says it's not a good idea.
>
> I don't see "yitrod" (Zev's answer), nor "TC she'eino tarid" (as per
> Lisa's). To me it seems clear that a TC shouldn't be appointed to lead
> the city because he invested the time to know Torah, and therefore can't
> run a city as well as someone who spent more time knowing society.

The term being used is present tense, the same as the instruction
being given. R' Akiva tells his son, "Don't live in a city where the
leaders are TC", Rashi explains, "Because they are too busy learning
to deal with day to day affairs".

Does this then follow to your assertion that TC lack the inherent
knowledge about the world's realities, or is RZS correct that it means
the daya to day affairs need to be taken care of by baalie baatim
while the decisions can (and I add, should be) made by TC? I tender
from "Den li Yavne v'Chachamiehu" your assertion is refuted, and we
see plainly that the TC (and only the TC) had the insight to realize
the true realities and the wisdom to actually implement it.

> But my point about R Aqiva disrecommending relying on DT stands even
> if I were able to see his objection as an inability to invest the time
> going forward, and would work even better if I thought R' Aqiva was
> speaking only of a TC who isn't also a baqi in civil matters. (Rather
> than, as it looks to me, assuming no TC could be.)

Again, neither of your interpertations for R' Akiva are correct. TC,
by virtue of being a true TC, know far more then anyone how things
should be, but can't give up learning to implement it. Thus the
arrangement of a Moetzes that makes decisions and a Hanhalla that is
composed of baalie baatim that implement them (the structure of Agudas
Yisroel) is what R' Akiva mandates.

KT,
MSS

On 5/10/2012 2:41 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 02:39:47PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>    
>> No, I think he simply means that a TC is likely to neglect his public
>> responsibilities through a reluctance to take time from learning, and
>> necessary public improvements will not get done, or will take longer
>> than they should.  He's not talking about dayonim, he's talking about
>> the mayor and the public works department....
>>      
> He's talking about "rasheiha" (to quote R' Aqiva). The mayor and so
> on. Not sure about public works, though.
>
> The notion of daas Torah is about applying emunas chakhamim to questions
> that revolve around metzi'us, rather than Torah. And I think R' Aqiva
> here says it's not a good idea.
>
> I don't see "yitrod" (Zev's answer), nor "TC she'eino tarid" (as per
> Lisa's). To me it seems clear that a TC shouldn't be appointed to lead
> the city because he invested the time to know Torah, and therefore can't
> run a city as well as someone who spent more time knowing society.
>    
That reading completely ignores Rashi's statement about treida.  It says 
"tarud"; not "tarad".

The criticism of Bar Kochva for not listening to the words of the 
chachamim indicates that leaders absoultely should apply emunat chachamim.

Lisa

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 03:46:48PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> The criticism of Bar Kochva for not listening to the words of the  
> chachamim indicates that leaders absoultely should apply emunat 
> chachamim.

Yeah, when they pasqen. Not daas Torah. BK violated halakhah, not just
advice.

I read teridin as a constant description, "they are always busy with their
texts instead of what people are doing." Also not in the past. Not in
the future once appointed. But a description of the typical TC's nature.

Again, not that they're too busy to respond, but too busy to be aware
of the metzi'us.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 10/05/2012 3:44 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 03:04:41PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> How so?  If he knows that he has not done anything that allows a BD to
>> compel a get, then he knows that he is in no danger of imprisonment,
>> unless the BD is dishonest.
>
> Because everyone knows that BD will find the truth and is so sure of the
> case and that they pasqen as he would that baalei din aren't worried of
> negative outcomes? Besides, the outcome also depends on things that don't
> happen until after he gets to court.

So now you're saying every man who goes to a rabbanut BD is afraid of
*false* imprisonment, and *this* fear should be equivalent to being
treated with harchokos of RT?!


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 04:04:00PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> So now you're saying every man who goes to a rabbanut BD is afraid of
> *false* imprisonment, and *this* fear should be equivalent to being
> treated with harchokos of RT?!

Yes, that was my ad absurdum case, showing why R' Dovid Eidensohn's
demand of absolutely no coersion neither by court nor by anyone else can't
possibly be halakhah. It doesn't make sense. I raised it in the same post
as Batmelech's example of the pushy mother-in-law, another ad absurdum.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Let me clarify or sum up my position (until proven wrong   Things are asur
until permitted. At the time of maase bereishis as we see from the ?pshetel
from the Sifsei Chachomim I poster previously, the default is that things
were asur if not specifically permitted. Certainly this is only wrt to
achila and hana?a or every movement (lifting your hand etc) or any other
mundane thing would need a heter. This seems to come from the musag that
the world is not yours and you need reshus to be nenhneh from it ? perhaps
in the same vein, the rationale for asur lihanos min ha?olam bli bracho.
Then HKB?H explicitly permitted ONLY vegetation for achila to man and
although in Ber. 1:28 Adam is given memshala over the creatures of the
world he is still not permitted to eat them as the Or Chachayim points out,
but perhaps this was matir the other hano?os from the animals such as use
of their fur etc. which otherwise would have remained asur to Adam. Then
the Mabul and Noach is permitted to 
 eat all. Then we arrive at matan Torah where the norm is now all is
 permitted to be eaten (except perhaps as I tried to opine in an earlier
 post) those things that were not yet in existence and therefore still
 operating under the original assumption of asur until permitted. I think
 this is a fair mehalach even if perhaps you can poke some holes here and
 there that I might try to fix with a bandaid.

Kol Tuv
Chaim Manaster
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On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 03:46:48PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> The criticism of Bar Kochva for not listening to the words of the
>> chachamim indicates that leaders absoultely should apply emunat
>> chachamim.
>
> Yeah, when they pasqen. Not daas Torah. BK violated halakhah, not just
> advice.

And Daas Torah today is not a psak? Do you think they dragged Bar
Kochva into a BD and there was mishpat? Chachomim told him what to do
and he did what he considered to be geopolitically correct, and he's
faulted for this. Today when Chachomim inform us how to act, its
precisely the same thing.

> I read teridin as a constant description, "they are always busy with their
> texts instead of what people are doing." Also not in the past. Not in
> the future once appointed. But a description of the typical TC's nature.
>
> Again, not that they're too busy to respond, but too busy to be aware
> of the metzi'us.

Detarud begirseih velo bemilei detzibura = He is busy with learning,
not with civil administration. Your interpretation should have Rashi
using other terms, e.g.  'bemilei deolam' = worldly matters. Further,
as the examples brought by RLL and myself show, when TC do involve
themselves in matters of Klal Yisroel the ones who ignore their lead
are faulted by Chazal. According to your interpretation, this puts R'
Akiva at loggerheads with Chazal, a farcical outcome.

E.g. A city's TC will pasken that usage of the Internet by anyone
under 40 who hasn't finished one round of Shas and Poskim is
prohibited (yes, the usage of the ban on Kaballah is intentional).
This is a clear psak, which according to you then triggers the Chazal
seen by Bar Kochba. At the same time, it runs afoul (according to your
interpretation) of R' Akiva. If, OTOH, we disregard your
interpretation, and read the words plainly, we'll explain them as TC
should not be involved in the civil administration of the Internet
Licensing Bureau in that city. This is in accordance with R' Akiva's
advice and doesn't contradict what Chazal have told us in countless
places throughout Shas.

KT,
MSS

On 10/05/2012 6:05 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I read teridin as a constant description, "they are always busy with their
> texts instead of what people are doing."

Rashi's language is: "he is busy learning and not in the public matters";
"milei detzibura" does not mean "what people are doing", it means public
works of the sort that "mefakchin al tzorchei tzibur beshabbos".  I.e.
fixing the potholes.


What are "mili detzibura"?  See BM 85a.  R Elazar (or R Ilai) was
occupied with these things, and R Zeira was afraid that he would be
next in line to be saddled with them.   So we see that "mili detzibura"
is a chore that needs to be done, and takes time away from learning,
rather than a subject, a field of knowledge, "what people are doing",
that one needs to know.

http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=3194&;size=2

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 06:29:17PM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
:> Yeah, when they pasqen. Not daas Torah. BK violated halakhah, not just
:> advice.
: 
: And Daas Torah today is not a psak? Do you think they dragged Bar
: Kochva into a BD and there was mishpat? ...

DT today is not pesaq, it's considered binding advice (more or less, depending
advice, but not a notion that this approach or that is actually assur,
using the kind of argument one sees in shu"t. Pesaq and mishpat are also
two different things.

...
: Detarud begirseih velo bemilei detzibura = He is busy with learning,
: not with civil administration. Your interpretation should have Rashi
: using other terms, e.g.  'bemilei deolam' = worldly matters....

If you agree that milei are words and ideas (from /mll/, to speak), as
in milei de'alma, or for that matter milei degirsa, then I don't know
why you think milei detzibura is hands-on rather than knowing the society.
Rashi is comparing what they take the time to learn.

I am saying that "milei de-" refers to knowledge. Being responsible for
them would mean something about words or speach, and thus advisory, not
implementation. A rosh ha'ir manages, not does.

The question is whether Rashi's version of R' Aqiva's words about the
mayor or town council would include being the man behind the mayor.

And RZS, BM 85a just says that R Zeira was so into acquiring the style
of learning in the Y-mi that among the things he fasted for was that he
not inherit R' Elazar ben Padas's job and "naflin iluyah milei detzibura".
not be responsible for milei detzibura like R' Elazar ben Padas. How does
that tell me what it means? Do we know whether REBP did or advised?
The only job I know of him having was that of R' Assi's amora.

...
: E.g. A city's TC will pasken that usage of the Internet by anyone
: under 40 who hasn't finished one round of Shas and Poskim is
: prohibited (yes, the usage of the ban on Kaballah is intentional).

: This is a clear psak...

I do not agree. He could make such a pesaq, using sources prohibiting
walking in areas where one is likely to stumble on causes of hirhurim. Or
if he were a Sanhedrin, he could make a taqanah. He could follow R'
Gershom and put all internet viewers into cheirem.

But you're blurring the line between iqar hadin and qadeish es atzmekha
bemah shemutar lakh. Halakhah is made with legal arguments, citing shas
and priori posqim, not with polemics from the podium.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 33rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Hod: LAG B'OMER - What is total
Fax: (270) 514-1507               submission to truth, and what results?

On 10/05/2012 6:15 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 04:04:00PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> So now you're saying every man who goes to a rabbanut BD is afraid of
>> *false* imprisonment, and *this* fear should be equivalent to being
>> treated with harchokos of RT?!
>
> Yes, that was my ad absurdum case, showing why R' Dovid Eidensohn's
> demand of absolutely no coersion neither by court nor by anyone else can't
> possibly be halakhah. It doesn't make sense. I raised it in the same post
> as Batmelech's example of the pushy mother-in-law, another ad absurdum.

If people are really worried about being *falsely* imprisoned by a BD
if they don't cooperate, then I would say ein hochi nami, all gittin
issued by that BD are invalid, and the dayonim should resign in disgrace.
I don't believe that's the case in EY.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

What about water and salt?  Where did the Torah permit those to be
consumed?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon


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