Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 88

Sun, 08 Jul 2012

• 1. Re: The main idea of Judaism (Neil Harris)
• 2. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone (David Riceman)
• 3. meta-halacha and psak (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 4. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (David Riceman)
• 5. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (David Riceman)
• 6. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 8. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Doron Beckerman)
• 9. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Ben Waxman)
• 10. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone? (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Doron Beckerman)
• 13. main idea of Judaism (Simi Peters)
• 14. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Doron Beckerman)
• 15. Poletet shichvat zera, and shiva neki'im (Ken Bloom)
• 16. Re: Poletet shichvat zera, and shiva neki'im (Harry Maryles)
• 17. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Joel C. Salomon)

Also going towards what RCM and RDBeckerman said.
I think that " *Halchta B'Drachav"* approach is most all inclusive and open
ended.
I know that it's a basic trigger questions for AJOP-type kiruv goups, but
the posted
answers from this group have been great.
I am actually going to bring this question up to people over Shabbos Kodesh.

Warmly,
Neil

--
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On 7/6/2012 10:09 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> "Mumar" lehach'is vs. "mumar" letei'avon?
>
>
That depends no how one understands the concept of a "non-kosher 
telephone", which, prima facie, is mind boggling.  One would think that 
kashrus applies to the behavior of the user, and not to the tool.

The reading I find most plausible is that this is a takkanas hakahal, 
and the kahal has nullified the property rights of the owners.  In which 
case no one's a mumar, someone just wasted his money purchasing 
something without value.

David Riceman

http://piskeidarom.blogspot.com/2012/07/meta-halachik-elements-of-p
sak.html
changing the nusach on yamim noraim for the sake of the twice-a-year  jews 



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On 7/6/2012 9:42 AM, David Riceman wrote:
> The Rambam says that malchus shamayim is "ha'ikkar hagadol shehakol 
> talui bo",

Speak of hashocheiach davar ehad mimishnaso hayyav misa!  What he 
actually says (H. Krias Shma 1:2, and the peculiar syntax is his) is: 
"yihud hashem v'ahavaso v'salmudo, shehu ha'ikkar hagadol shehakol talui 
bo".  But I think the basic idea still follows.

DR

On 7/6/2012 10:00 AM, Rich, Joel wrote:
> Do you mention that one should also take into account the needs of the
> tzibbur( e.g. X finds fulfillment in learning all day by himself but
> would be a very effective teacher)
>
And that lifnim meshuras hadin is a mitzva hiyuvis, not a mitzva kiyumis.

David Riceman

R' David Riceman wrote:

> What I tell my son is that there are minimum standards that
> everyone must strive to perform, but beyond that one has quite
> a bit of flexibility about how much of an oveid hashem one
> desires to be, ...

I am a very lazy person, but in my *desires*, I cannot imagine striving to
be anything less than a *total* oveid Hashem. And I try to tell my kids
that this should be their desire too. I hope to hear that "how much of an
oveid hashem one desires to be" was an accidentally poor choice of words.

In my view, there are many things everyone must try to do, but one does
have quite a bit of flexibility in HOW one does those things. One will
serve Hashem by teaching Torah, another will serve Hashem by teaching math,
and a third will serve Hashem by collecting trash. One will serve Hashem by
saying Kiddush standing, another will serve Hashem by saying Kiddush
sitting, and a third will serve Hashem by saying Kiddush in the hospital
with the patients. And so on and so forth.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4ff74bd2479df4bd24395st52vuc

The Alter of Kelm suggested carrying two scriptures in one's pocket at
all times, to be referred to regularly.

Divrei HaYamim 1:28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve
Him with a whole heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searcheth
all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts; if
thou seek Him, He will be found of thee; but if thou forsake Him, He
will cast thee off for ever.

Micha 6:6-8:
Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on
high? Shall I come before Him with burnt-offerings, with calves of a
year old?
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of
rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the
fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?'
It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth
require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk
humbly with thy God.

Asos Mishpat, Ahavas Chesed, v'Hatznei'a Leches im Elokecha.

Can there be a better synopsis of the mission of the Mamleches Kohanim
v'Goy Kadosh?

KT, GS,
YGB

> This is halachic authority, not political.

Political authority carries halachic judicial authority with it -
just as a Melech has legal judicial (or extra-judicial) authority,
and it was to be obeyed. But Yiftach was not the head of the Sanhedrin
or anything close to it. He is called a Parnas in that Gemara, not a
Dayyan, a Zakein, or a Shofeit. The Shoftim were usually appointed by
the Sanhedrin in recognition of some Ruach Hashem that was within them
that made them good Moshi'im. Which also renders them irrelevant to
discussion about the draft.

> Asa didn't draft them for national defense, he had them gathering the
> stones off Ramah and building with them. Melakhim I 15:23, and the
> gemara's calling them an angary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angary>.
> (Thanks to RZS for identifying the term for me.)

Oy. The Angaria is not the requisitioning of the *rocks*, it is the
requisitioning of the *people*, the Talmidei Chachamim that he should not
have touched! Compare to Nedarim 32a where Avraham Avinu is criticized
for "Angaria BeTalmidei Chachamim" regarding his war to try and save Lot.
According to one opinion there - his punishment for that was no slap on
the wrist. It cost us 210 years in Egypt.

Assa removed the wall that was besieging him - of course it was part
of a war effort. That's why we even mention Chasan Mechadro etc. See
Maharsha to Sotah ad loc. whether the two statements are connected.

But you are correct that this was not a Milchemes Mitzvah. Please,
please see the sources I have linked to already (RYMT, Einayim Lamishpat,
Tzitz Eliezer).

I am not talking about what he should do when the robbery is taking 
place. OK if a robbery is in progress call the police. But before it 
ever gets to that point, how is it that he can demand from society the 
same number of patrols, that security cameras be installed on his 
street, etc if he has this guard and therefore doesn't have to pay a 
tax? That is what doesn't make any sense. On one hand he is saying I 
don't need to pay but on the other hand is he is saying "yes I need 
police protection just as much as anyone else".

Ben

On 7/6/2012 6:15 PM, Doron Beckerman wrote:
> Responding to few things at once:
> Again, a Talmid Chacham is not immune to being robbed. He is viewed as 
> having an armed guard with him to prevent it. That's it. They aren't 
> obligated to pay for guards. But if it is available and granted to 
> them by law, why not?
>

On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 10:10:41PM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
:                          He is called a Parnas in that Gemara, not a
: Dayyan, a Zakein, or a Shofeit.

But the gemara is about listening to posqim. As I noted last post.
Which is why I don't know how you can say the idea is something like a
toladah to morid bemalkhus, when the gemara itself says it's lo sasur --
the sourcetext for authority qua poseiq.

:> Asa didn't draft them for national defense, he had them gathering the
:> stones off Ramah and building with them. Melakhim I 15:23, and the
:> gemara's calling them an angary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angary>.
:> (Thanks to RZS for identifying the term for me.)

: Oy. The Angaria is not the requisitioning of the *rocks*, it is the
: requisitioning of the *people*, the Talmidei Chachamim that he should not
: have touched! Compare to Nedarim 32a where Avraham Avinu is criticized
: for "Angaria BeTalmidei Chachamim" regarding his war to try and save Lot.
: According to one opinion there - his punishment for that was no slap on
: the wrist. It cost us 210 years in Egypt.

That's not what the word means, though. Angary is seizing the enemy's
property. I agree that AA is actually being criticized for the same
kind of cheit as Asa. But I see the cheit being overstepping the use
of TC to include things beyond the milkhemes mitzvah itself.

Seperate question I'm now wondering: Who did Avraham have take with
him other than talmidei chakhamim?

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

I don't that the "what is the situation in which someone sees someone 
(presumably dati) using the phone on Shabbat and how could it happen at 
all" question is the important point here. The Rebbe's point could be 
that destroying a so-called non-kosher phone is so important that it 
could be done Shabbat.

Ben

On 7/3/2012 6:04 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>
> I myself wonder if he really meant what he said literally.  We have a 
> long tradition -- especially in Israel -- of people saying extreme 
> things, very heatedly, as a kind of rhetorical flourish, not really 
> expecting to be taken literally.
>

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>> On one hand he is saying I  don't need to pay but on the other hand is
he is saying "yes I need  police protection just as much as anyone else". <<

I agree, if he isn't paying the tax for security, he shouldn't ask for it.
But if he is - why not get what he is paying for anyway? It isn't useless.
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It seems to me that we can talk about the main idea of Judaism in terms of
two things:  (1) the message of Judaism to the world (which also includes
us) and (2) the main idea of Judaism in terms of what a Jew is supposed to
be and do.

It seems to me that the message of Judaism in the first sense is "ein od
milvado".  This isn't a purely theological statement,  It has implications
for how everyone at the level of consciousness (i.e., the recognition of
God) and at the level of practice (i.e., that we should be living in the
world in consonance with His will and in order to express the ideas of
harmony, unity, truth, peace and purpose/meaning with which He created the
world and which are the nearest we can get in an attempt to emulate Him.)  

As far as the second main idea of Judaism (in terms of what a Jew is
supposed to be and do), it seems to me that "Kedoshim tihiyu" is an
explicit statement of that.  The Meshekh Hokhma's definition of this mitzva
encapsulates its essential meaning: to dedicate everything to God--our
time, our energies, our possessions, our relationships, etc.  (This is not
to disregard the Ramban on the pasuk, but to broaden the definition
considerably.)	For me, personally, the Netziv's understanding of how the
mitzva is applied to individuals is a central ingredient in the main idea
of Judaism, and dovetails nicely with elements in hassidut.  He follows the
Ramban's approach (perishut min hamutarot), but points out that the
definition of perishut will differ from individual to individual and will
change with life circumstances.  To me, this connects with the idea that
every Jew has something unique in his shoresh haneshama (Netivot Shalom,
but others as well) that finds a particular express
 ion in his avodat Hashem.  Or, as the Ramhal puts it:	the person has to
 clarify for himself, "ma hovati be'olami" (What is *my* obligation in *my*
 world?)  This goes beyond the hiyuv of mitzvot to something equally and
 sometimes much more profound--a genuinely personal relationship with
 Hashem.

Kol tuv,
Simi Peters

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>> But the gemara is about listening to posqim. As I noted last post.
Which is why I don't know how you can say the idea is something like a
toladah to morid bemalkhus, when the gemara itself says it's lo sasur -- <<
 It just does not say that regarding the Shoftim of the Shoftim era. The
Beraisa is talking about heeding legitimate judicial authority, and, in the
context of the Shoftim, the authority of a *Parnas* (which extends to
Shiv'a Tovei Ha'ir as well) which also has quasi-judicial authority.  See
Shulchan Aruch CM 2:1 and Sm'a 10 ad loc.

The source of their authority was something akin to a Melech, and they were
Dan Shelo Al Pi Din Torah if the situation called for it. They were not the
heads of the Sanhedrin, nor the foremost Poskim of their era. K'tzas Raayah
- if Yiftach were, would Pinchas have qualms about going to him to be Matir
his Neder (Taanis 4a)?

>> That's not what the word means, though. Angary is seizing the enemy's
property. <<

Then it makes no sense regarding Avraham Avinu. Please see the first
definition here:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/angaria

>> I agree that AA is actually being criticized for the same
kind of cheit as Asa. But I see the cheit being overstepping the use
of TC to include things beyond the milkhemes mitzvah itself. <<

 Again, look at the sources I cited. See here:
 http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20825&;st=&pgnum=83

>>> Seperate question I'm now wondering: Who did Avraham have take with
him other than talmidei chakhamim? <<

 If it wasn't a Milchemes Mitzvah, and all he had were TCs, who says he
should have taken anyone? See aforementioned source.
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I'm learning the halachot about the shiva neki'im and the person I'm
learning with taught me about how pelitat shichvat zera is soter a day of
the shiva neki'im, necessitating one to count 4 or 5 days before hefsek
tahora. The person I'm learning with has been very good about giving me
simple explanations of the torah sources for most of the halachot, but all
he could say about this one is that it's some sort of derasha that he
couldn't remember. My books also don't quote a paseuk or derasha for this,
even though they do in other places where it's relevant.

Can anyone holding in Daf Yomi right now, or otherwise versed in the
subject, tell me what the soruce is for pelitat shichvat zera being soter a
day of the shiva neki'im?
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Niddah 33b.
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 



Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

--- On Sun, 7/8/12, Ken Bloom <kbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm learning the halachot about the shiva neki'im and the person I'm
learning with taught me about how pelitat shichvat zera is soter a day of
the shiva neki'im, necessitating one to count 4 or 5 days before hefsek
tahora. The person I'm learning with has been very good about giving me
simple explanations of the torah sources for most of the halachot, but all
he could say about this one is that it's some sort of derasha that he
couldn't remember. My books also don't quote a paseuk or derasha for this,
even though they do in other places where it's relevant.

Can anyone holding in Daf Yomi right now, or otherwise versed in the
subject, tell me what the soruce is for?pelitat shichvat zera being soter a
day of the shiva neki'im?
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On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> This question is sparked also by my reading R' Dr Gidon Rothstein's
> "We're Missing the Point: What Wrong with the O Jewish Community and
> How to Fix It" (Ktav 2012). R/D GR rules out using aggadita (such as
> Hillel and the geirim) because it often uses exageration to make a point,
> and tries to derive an incontravertible answer from halakhah, looking
> at the mitzvos that apply more often or that have the greater oneshim.
>
> I have problems with the notion that there is one right answer. But in
> that part of the book, before getting to the "how to fix it" part, RGR
> effectively raises the question of how one would find /any/ right answer.

For those (such as myself) who have not yet read RGR's "We're Missing
the Point", he previously developed those ideas in a series of essays
at <http://blog.webyeshiva.org/tag/the-mission-of-orthodoxy-project>.
(The list there is in reverse-chronological order, I'm afraid.)

?J. Chesky


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