Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 103

Wed, 25 Jul 2012

• 1. Re: Raising Nitzotzos (Poppers, Michael)
• 2. Re: Showering During the Nine Days (Gershon Dubin)
• 3. Re: Netillat Yadayim with no towel (T6...@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Holier Than Thou (Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier)
• 5. Re: Netillat Yadayim with no towel (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Re: Showering During the Nine Days (Harry Maryles)
• 8. Brush teeth after seudat shlishit (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Raising Nitzotzos (Micha Berger)
• 11. Vespasian (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Netillat Yadayim with no towel (Joel Schnur)
• 13. Re: Vespasian (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Vespasian (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Vespasian (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Netillat Yadayim with no towel (Poppers, Michael)

In Avodah V30n98, R'Micha wrote:
> Say in the middle of Shemoneh Esrei I have an irrelevent thought.
The "karate" way of dealing with it is to resist the thought by dropping
it, looking back into the siddur, paying attention to what the word
means.
> Or, one can elevate the thought. A worry about parnasah crosses the
> mind? Instead of forcibly dropping it, I can remember that parnasah
> comes from HQBH, and turn that worry itself into a tefillah before
> moving back to
what I should have been focusing on.
...
> I find it's much more effective than trying to abruptly switch tracks. <
I try to have H' w/ me all the time.  If something foreign to that level of
awareness gets in the way, I tend to work on regaining awareness (not so
much "karate" against the Bad Guy as much as resuming my duet with the
Good, but certainly not dancing w/ the Bad, turning it into another Good
Guy).  That's at a micro level.  OTOH, at a macro level, I'm looking to
utilize and be m'qadeish chomer, which in a way _is_ trying to work with
what could potentially be Bad and turning it into Good, but I don't think
we're discussing hashqafah as much as deaiing with deviation from the
derech, so don't call me a MMA fighter -- I'm more like an artist :). 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

> Here is a link to this article: " Showering During the 9 Days?!" (
> http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4851 ) by Rabbi Yehuda
> Spitz.

From: "Joel Schnur" <j...@schnurassociates.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:37:57 -0400
> ... BTW, Rav Moshe allowed laundered shirts to be worn during the
> nine days. He held that ONLY starched shirts were forbidden for first
> time use... I spoke with Rav Aron Felder...  In his words, it was
> the "snap" of a starched shirt that Rav Moshe said was the issur. When
> I asked about No-Iron shirts, he reiterated "starched shirts because of
> their snap, that's all."

Just heard the same from Rav Shlomo Pearl in the name of Rav Moshe.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

 
 
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
>
> A nearby shul  recently installed air blowers, and there are only paper
> towels at the  lobby sinks on Shabbos. Washing before davening lacks the
> gravitas as  before hamotzi, but I was wondering if they were pushing
> those who do  wash regularly before davening to go with a bedi'eved.

I don't understand  the question. Since when is drying the hands part
of the mitzvah? AFAIK  drying is merely a practical requirement, since
eating bread with wet hands  is disgusting, so it makes no difference
how they got dry, and there's not  even a lechatchila preference for a
towel. 
-- 
Zev Sero  
z...@sero.name 

>>>>>


 
 
I think there is a lechatchilah preference for a towel and here is the  
reason why.  There is a preference to make a bracha first and do the mitzva  
after.  In the case of netillas yadayim, you don't make the bracha first  and 
wash your hands after, because you don't want to make a bracha with dirty  
hands.  But in order to preserve the order of first a bracha and then  an 
action, it is preferable to dry your hands /after/ saying the bracha.   But if  
you have nothing to dry your hands on, then there is no action to  perform. 
  
 
If there is no other option, you can just airdry your hands (or blow dry  
them).  But usually you can find /something/ to dry your hands on -- a  
napkin, a tissue, the edge of the tablecloth. Since "netilas yadayim" means,  
IIANM, lifting your hands, I suppose that you can make the bracha and then just 
 lift your hands and wave them around.
 

--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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I, the author of the original email, also have no problem with the kid 
playing basketball and taking time off of learning. I waste much time, 
and am not really concerned about bittul torah when something else needs 
to be done.

My question was not should one stop learning to go to the levaya. I know 
the answer is yes (qualified - if one is able to). I went and my kids 
went to Rav Elyashiv's levaya. What did bother me a bit was that because 
the levaya finished so late, my kids slept through most of the next 
morning missing a lot of learning the next day (along with zman tfillah).

kol tuv
Rafi Goldmeier

---------
Goldmeier
goldmeier.fam...@gmail.com

Advertise on Life in Israel blog!! See 
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/p/advertise-on-life-in-israel.html for
more information!

http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com
http://rabbirunningamarathon.blogspot.com

On 22/7/2012 2:18 PM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
>> Some people consider basketball or other exercise to be an unwarranted
>> waste of time when youngsters could be learning every moment of every day.
>> Others believe that a break from learning can help youngsters go back to their
>> learning later refreshed and healthy, with a new enthusiasm.  I am with
>> the  latter group.
> So am I!
>
>> I reject completely the validity of this subject line:  "bittul torah  for
>> a talmid chochom's levaya."
> So do I. When I saw the subject to begin with, I couldn't believe
> the nit picking. What often lacks in topics such as these is common
> sense. Why is it that nobody raises the question of bittul Torah
> regarding other mitzvot, such as hachnosess orchim, bikur cholim and
> hachnosess kallah? Did you forget that l'vayas hameis is also a mitzvah,
> (let alone one for a godol hador)?
>
> What makes me laugh is that there is such irrationality regarding the
> subject of this topic and yet you don't see discussions on the aveira
> of overeating to the point of slowly killing yourself and the aveira of
> smoking due to harming yourself. Also, anything done for your health,
> such as youngsters exercising, is a mitzvah and yet there are those who
> look upon it as bittul Torah.
>

On 24/07/2012 11:06 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> There is a preference to make a bracha first and do the mitzva after. 
> In the case of netillas yadayim, you don't make the bracha first and
> wash your hands after, because you don't want to make a bracha with
> dirty hands.  But in order to preserve the order of first a bracha and
> then an action, it is preferable to dry your hands /after/ saying the
> bracha.  But if  you have nothing to dry your hands on, then there is
> no action to perform.

As far as I know, and have always been taught, when one pours water for
the last time on the left hand one keeps a little water cupped in the hand,
says the bracha, and then rubs the hands over each other, and this shifshuf
is the last part of the mitzvah.  *Then* one dries them, because eating
bread with wet hands is disgusting, and is as if one is eating tamei bread
(IIRC this is a gemara in Sotah, quoting a pasuk).   I haven't had a chance
to look up the sources on this yet, but that's how I was taught and have
always seen others do.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

A number of people suggested that this should be permitted because it is a
psik reisha d'lo nicha lei on an issur d'rabbanan. I would like to raise 2
issues with that premise:

1. Is this really lo nicha lei? Everyone would agree that you cannot
disconnect the meter before shabbos and use the water because you would be
stealing from the water company. Therefore, the meter recording how much
water you used is nicha lei.  If the meter didn't record your use the
company would not be able to charge you and you wouldn't know how much to
pay, in essence you would be stealing. Therefore, you want the meter to
record your use to keep you from stealing.
2. It is not so clear that psik reisha d'lo nicha lei on an issur
d'rabbanan is permitted. R' Eider in his sefer on hilchos shabbos writes
that a psik reisha d'lo nicha lei on an issur d'rabbanan is assur. The
Shemiras Shabbos in the new edition has an introduction to Hilchos Shabbos.
In the text he doesn't discuss psik reisha d'lo nicha lei on an issur
d'rabbanan but in a footnote he quotes a number of Mishna Berura's that it
is assur. R' Willig in his sefer Am Mordechai on Shabbos, wanted to make
the following distinction by psik reisha d'lo nicha lei on an issur
d'rabbanan. He said that if the issur is ikkaro min hatorah and it is only
d'rabbanan for a technicality (melacha shein tzricha legufa, shinui,
mekalkel, etc.) then psik reisha d'lo nicha lei on an issur d'rabbanan
would be assur. But if the issur is ikkaro midrabbanan like electricity
then psik reisha d'lo nicha lei would be mutar.
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I heard in the name of a respected Rosh Kollel (Lakewood) that in our day
we are all B'Geder Istiness and therefore for us - showering is permitted
during the nine days.
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 



Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

--- On Tue, 7/24/12, Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com> wrote:
> Here is a link to this article: " Showering During the 9 Days?!" (
> http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4851 ) by Rabbi Yehuda
> Spitz.
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Any heter to brush one's teeth this Shabbat after Seudat Shlishit 
(before sundown of course)?

Ben

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 10:24:52AM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
: 1. Is this really lo nicha lei? Everyone would agree that you cannot
: disconnect the meter before shabbos and use the water because you would be
: stealing from the water company. Therefore, the meter recording how much
: water you used is nicha lei.  If the meter didn't record your use the
: company would not be able to charge you and you wouldn't know how much to
: pay, in essence you would be stealing. Therefore, you want the meter to
: record your use to keep you from stealing.

When I grew up in Queens, you were billed a flat rate based on the number
of fixtures you had. Or, the water company could have chosen to give you
the water. The subject of billing is lo nicha lei because that side of
the transaction /is/ separable from the receiving side. There are more
possibilities in the universe than buy vs steal.

: 2. It is not so clear that psik reisha d'lo nicha lei on an issur
: d'rabbanan is permitted....

Of course this presumes there are numbers on the meter. Otherwise, it's
not be'ein, as Lisa already noted, and we don't have to worry about nicha
lei.

In <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol30/v30n096.shtml#03> I mention
R Josh Flug's paper "Motion Sensors and the Concept of P'sik Reishei"
and summarized his summary of a number of other sources. Your "not
so clear" implies that post was missed.

I had lost the back pages of the essay, so I couldn't give mar'eh
meqomos. Since, R' Eliyahu Gerstel sent me a copy of the paper with the
pages of cut-n-pastes of the sources. REG said it was already publicly
available at OU's web site, I put a copy up here
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/rjfMotionSensors.doc>.

So here is my again, with mar'eh meqomos:

The Arukh (erekh "pesaq") holds it's mutar.

Tosafos (Shabbos 103a "lo tzeikha de'avid") hold it's assur derabbanan,
as a kind of melakhah she'einah tzerkhah legufah.

The SA (OC 329:18) holds like Tosafos.

The Terumas haDeshen (1:64) allows pesiq reishei delo nicha lei when
the issur is derabbanan.

The MA (314:5) does not.

R' YE Spektor (Shu"t Be'er Yitzchaq OC #15) is meiqil like the Terumas
haDeshen.

The MB (314:11) holds like the MA, but does allow a double-derabbanan. Eg:
Closing a large box that has a bug of a sort not normally trapped
inside. Derabbanan 1: the box is large, so the bug still needs to be
cornered within the box if you wanted to hold it. Derabbanan 2: it's
not normally trapped. So, PRDNL would be mutar in this case.

Similarly, the MB discusses the more practical case of eating a cake
that has lettering
on it.
Derabbanan 1: Mechilqah shelo al menas likhto
Derabbanan 2: Derekh achilah
So, the MB concludes the Rama would hold that in this case the PRDNL
is permitted.

(Lately the local bakery is more machmir than the Rama and the MB,
and puts the frosting on a card which one can remove before cutting
the cake.)

ROY (Yechaveh Daas 2:46) only requires one derabbanan.


-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 12:58:10PM +0000, Akiva Miller wrote:
: He taught us to always praise the strength and skill of our opponent,
: most especially *after* the game (or, in our nimshal, the battle). If
: one unfortunately lost, he can console himself with, "I put up a good
: fight, but he was stronger than me." And if he wins, he can proudly say,
: "He was very strong, but I was stronger." Either way, there is very
: little to be gained by deprecating the opponent.

: (I do not mean to deny the idea that in some situations there can
: be great value in saying that the opponent is an easily-defeated
: gornisht. I'm just suggesting another approach.)

You remind me of R' Yehudah on Sukkah 52a, the maamar where he says the
le'asid lavo HQBH will shecht the yeitzer hara. The tzadiqim and resha'im
both cry. To the tzadiqim it will look like a mountain, and they will cry,
"How could I have overpowered such a big mountain?" And the resha'im will
see a hair and cry, "How could we not have conquered such a thin hair?"

-Micha

Any thoughts on the fact that our version of the story has messengers
arriving from Rome telling Vespasian that the elders had appointed him
Emperor while the secular version has the armies of Egypt and Judea
declaring him Emperor and then going to Rome to defeat Vitellius?


She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,
Joel Rich

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> Washing before davening lacks the gravitas as before hamotzi

Not so according to the Vilna Gaon. In ois gimmel of the Maase Rav, it is
brought down that the Gra held that washing before mincha and maariv is
done in the manner one does before meals and is a chiyuv i.e. right hand
first, 2 pours and birchas al nitilas yadoyim. Btw, in the biur hagra,
he writes that on YK and TBA, one does NOT wash naigel vasser nor recite
al nitilas yadoyim in davening until after the fast. He held there was
no ruach hatumah to worry about on those days. One can only wash his
hands as is necessary if they get dirty. Also did not say sheassah li
kol tzorki until after he put his shoes back on at night


As an aside, he put on talis and tefiliin after morning kinos and before
chatzos and did NOT say KS after he put on his tefillin, just like the
MB later paskened. Seems that many ppl don't know this MB.

A most meaningful and easy fast to all!

___________________________
Joel Schnur
Senior VP
Government Affairs/Public Relations
Schnur Associates, Inc.
j...@schnurassociates.com 
www.schnurassociates.com

On 25/07/2012 3:10 PM, Rich, Joel wrote:
> Any thoughts on the fact that our version of the story has messengers
> arriving from Rome telling Vespasian that the elders had appointed
> him Emperor while the secular version has the armies of Egypt and
> Judea declaring him Emperor and then going to Rome to defeat Vitellius?

The message may not have come from Rome but from Egypt, and "the important
people of Rome" may refer to the army leaders who had decided to make him
emperor.  RYBZ, not being up on Roman politics, may not have understood
these details.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 25/07/2012 3:10 PM, Rich, Joel wrote:
> Any thoughts on the fact that our version of the story has messengers
> arriving from Rome telling Vespasian that the elders had appointed
> him Emperor while the secular version has the armies of Egypt and
> Judea declaring him Emperor and then going to Rome to defeat Vitellius?

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 04:54:22PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> The message may not have come from Rome but from Egypt, and "the important
> people of Rome" may refer to the army leaders who had decided to make him
> emperor.  RYBZ, not being up on Roman politics, may not have understood
> these details.

RZS tries to make the stories jibe. But the gemare (Gittin 56b) has the
messenger coming from Rome, not only that the Roman nobility called for
him. It's not just someone's impression, the gemara states it as
fact.

More significantly, the message says that Caesar had died. However,
this was "The Year of the Four Emperors". Nero comitted suicide in
June 68. Then the Caesars were:
    June   68    Galba 
    Jan  2 69    Otho
    Apr 16 69    Vitellius
    Dec 21 69    Vesapsian

So, it could well be that Vespasian was sent for by a Roman faction who
decided he would be next when Otho (or perhaps even Galba) died. Things
didn't go that way, and so some point after getting to Italy his soldiers
(the Danubian Legions, to be exact) killed the current encumbent,
Vitellus.

(Aren't Google and Wikipedia wonderful?)

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 25/07/2012 7:41 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> RZS tries to make the stories jibe. But the gemare (Gittin 56b) has the
> messenger coming from Rome, not only that the Roman nobility called for
> him. It's not just someone's impression, the gemara states it as
> fact.

I'm assuming that the gemara here is not speaking with ruach hakodesh,
but is relaying the story as the Amoraim had received it, from the only
person who was there and could have related it, RYBZ.  And therefore
that it reflects his understanding of what he saw and heard, which might
have been imperfect.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

In Avodah Digest, Vol 30, Issue 101, RLK asked:
> I was at a restaurant today and they had a washing station, but no towels.
They only had an electric hand dryer.
> Does anyone know what one should do in such a situation? <
I'm not a R (in the sense of CYLOR), but if you're asking whether using an
electric hand dryer constitutes "niguv yadayim" (OC 158:12), lamah lo? and
let's say it was Shabbos or Yuntef -- would you have a problem utilizing
evaporation (i.e. rubbing your hands to spread the water left after you
shook off what you could & then waving them around)?

BTW, a nice summary of sources re the purposes of and need for niguv can be found here:
http://www.yutorah.org/_shiurim/The%20Beracha%20of%20Al%20Neti
lat%20Yadayim.html . 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

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