Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 107

Thu, 02 Aug 2012

• 1. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Simon Montagu)
• 2. Re: ceremonies in halacha (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 3. Re: rif yomi (David Riceman)
• 4. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: geneivas daas [was: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews] (T613K@aol.com)
• 6. Re: geneivas daas [was: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews] (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on th e faucet on Shabbos? (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 8. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on yo ur faucet on Shabbos? (Akiva Miller)
• 9. Re: Brush teeth after seudat shlishit (Akiva Miller)
• 10. Re: rif yomi (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: rif yomi (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: rif yomi (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: geneivas daas [was: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews] (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: geneivas daas [was: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews] (Harry Maryles)
• 15. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on yo ur faucet on Shabbos? (Doron Beckerman)
• 16. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on the faucet on Shabbos? (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on yo ur faucet on Shabbos? (Liron Kopinsky)

With reference to the question of whether adding to one's water bill
is niha leih or not, perhaps the end of the first Mishna in AZ is
relevant:

"Rabbi Yehuda 'omer nifra`in mehem mip'ne shehu metzer. 'am'ru lo --
af al pi shehu metzer achshav, sameah hu le'ahar miken".

It's not exactly the same case, but maybe similar.

RMicha Berger wrote: : : The Gra made a berakhah "al akhilas matzah" whenever eating matzah during
: : the entire 8 days of Pesach. He holds that while the mitzvah chiyuvis
: : is only the first night(s) of Pesach, there is a qiyum mitzvah by eating
: : matzah the rest of Pesach.
: 
: I was only sorta right.
: 
: It is generally assumed that the unnamed "tzadiq" referred to in the
: Maharsham 1:209 who made such berakhos was the Gra. But the Sedei Chemed
: also discusses it, to no conclusion, in vol 8 "chameitz umatzah" 14:10.
: 
: So, I guess it's not so clear after all. Thanks to RJSchnur for pushing
: me to look it up.	 It seems inconceivable that the Gaon would have
: had such a shitta without mention being made in Maasei Rav.  It is
: certainly a bigger chiddush than, e.g., making a b'racha whenever
: entering the sukka, even without eating; yet that is mentioned, while a
: b'racha on matza other than at the seder is not.	  Furthermore, even
: a casual glance at the Maharsham's t'shuva makes it apparent that his
: reference is not to the GR"A.  For one thing, it is most unlikely that he
: would refer to the GR"A as "tzaddik echad," wiith no reference to his
: gadlus baTorah.  Secondly, he makes reference to the GR"A in the t'shuva
: itself, citing his opinion in the Maasei Rav that it is a mitzva but not
: a chiyuv, without even a hint that he is the bracha-making tzaddik. 
: Finally, I doubt that he would have characterized the GR"A as "ein ruach
: chachamim noche heimenu," as he writes dismissively of the anonymous
: tzaddik echad. EMT   
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<<RM wrote.. I don't know of anyone learning Rif Yomi.>>

See Ma'aseh Rav #60.  If you have a copy of Ma'aseh Rav HaShalem see note 4.

David Riceman

On 1/08/2012 5:49 PM, Simon Montagu wrote:
> With reference to the question of whether adding to one's water bill
> is niha leih or not, perhaps the end of the first Mishna in AZ is
> relevant:
>
> "Rabbi Yehuda 'omer nifra`in mehem mip'ne shehu metzer. 'am'ru lo --
> af al pi shehu metzer achshav, sameah hu le'ahar miken".
>
> It's not exactly the same case, but maybe similar.

It seems relevant.  This shows that paying ones debts is distressing;
one would rather never pay them, if that were possible.  Therefore in
our case, adding to the bill is a tzaar.  The Chachamim acknowledge
that this distress exists, but say that it's balanced with a greater
relief one feels that the debt no longer has to be paid.  That doesn't
apply in our case, since the alternative to the meter running is that
the meter will *not* run, and one will never have to pay for the water.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

 

From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
>> Geneivas Akum  is assur min hatorah, isn't it?  Whereas where is *any* 
geneivas
daas  assur min hatorah?  <<


-- 
Zev  Sero        
 


>>>>
 
Lifnei iver lo siten michshol
 

--Toby  Katz
=============



------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 



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From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
> Geneivas Akum is assur min hatorah, isn't it?  Whereas where is *any* 
> geneivas daas assur min hatorah?

I was thinking about geneivas da'as aku"m having nothing to do with
chilul H' (which is why I called it "more direct") and thus having no
parallel to the situation of ta'us aku"m.

Geneivas da'as is learned out from Vayiqra 19:11 (see Ritva Chullin 94a,
Sma"g lav #55) and more to our point (but less supported) from Bereishis
31:20, "Vayignov Yaaqov es leiv Lavan", an instance of geneivas da'as
aku"m.

I would also note that midevar sheqer tirchaq is a reflexive lav, there
is no object to the sentence outside oneself, the target of the sheqer is
irrelevent.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

 RZev Sero wrote: 

>BTW, in reference to your claim that LNL means only that he doesn't
positively want it, and includes cases where he's indifferent, see
Shabbos 75a, Rashi dh "tfei nicha leih".  Rashi says explicitly that
where he's indifferent R Shimon concedes that he's chayav, and the
exception to R Shimon's concession is only where he would rather the
melacha didn't happen.<

     It's a machlokes haRishonim.  See Tosafos Shabbos 103a, d.h. "Lo
     tzricha,' wherein they quote the Aruch that if he does a melacha to
     another person's land, and doesn't particularly care for that other
     person's benefit, it is considered lo nicha lei. EMT  
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[Kindly avoid using RMB in a discussion where both R' Marty Bluke and
I are contributing. I corrected the attribution in the first line of
this email, but note to the reader: the "RMB"s here are RMBluke, not
me. -micha]

R' Marty Bluke wrote:
> When I come to turn on the water faucet on Shabbos, we can't
> deal with hypotheticals but the facts as they are right now
> and right now I want the meter to record my usage so I will
> know how much to pay.

R' Zev Sero responded:
> No you don't.  Right now you *still* want not to have to pay.
> If the meter were to stop running you'd be happy, not sad.

It seems to me that RZS is mixing two ideas, thus missing RMB's
point. RMB's point (it seems to me) is that we must separate the
requirement to pay from the operation of the meter.

I think we would all be much happier if we did not have to pay for our
water. But that's not the world most of us live in. In the here and now,
we DO have to pay for our water, whether we like it or not, and that
has NOTHING to do with the question we are discussing.

The question as I see it is this: Given that we DO have an obligation to
pay for it, do we want the meter to operate properly or not? RZS asserts
that "If the meter were to stop running you'd be happy, not sad", but
I disagree strongly. If my meter were to stop running, then my choices
would be:

1) steal the water outright
2) use the water, but discuss payment with the water company either
before or after actually using it.
3) stop using the water

Option #1 is clearly unacceptable. Option #2 may or may not be acceptable
halachically, but it is certainly an effort that I'd rather avoid. Option
#3 is clearly okay halachically, but extremely difficult practically.

Given that I don't like any of those three options, I am forced to say
that the continued functioning of the meter *IS* to my benefit. It is
the only way I can both use the water, and use it with a clear conscience.

Akiva Miller

R"n Lisa Liel wrote:

> ...we wouldn't ordinarily chow down on half a can of
> Pringles on Shabbat.

She was speaking about whether it might constitute preparing for after Shabbos, but R' Michael Poppers added another dimension to it, writing:

> Isn't eating such food at any s'udah shlishis, never mind the
> one this past Shabbos/9Av, accordingly problematic because it
> displays a lack of kavod for Shabbos ... (Perhaps "a lack of
> kavod for Shabbos" is not an issue, or perhaps eating food on
> Shabbos that one [how 'bout a ben-melech] would not ordinarily
> eat on Shabbos is irrelevant?)

I was curious what he meant by "how 'bout a ben-melech", and discussed it
with him this morning after minyan. That conversation led to the
observation that it is often difficult to put in writing what sorts of
activities or foods are appropriate for Shabbos, because varying cultures
can treat similar activities to differently. This makes it difficult to
specify these sort of things in writing.

(For example, see Rabbi Yiroel Pinchos Bodner's "Halachos of Muktza", p 72,
where Rav Moshe Feinstein advised the author NOT to enumerate which
appliances are or are not Muktze Machmas Chisaron Kis for this very
reason.)

However, halacha does provide a sort of "sliding scale" for evaluating the
"fanciness" of foods, and that is in Hilchos Bishul Akum, where we must
judge whether or not a food is appropriate for a king's table. This is a
standard which can change for a given food, from culture to culture. But
nevertheless, it *is* a standard, and it does apply to food, and it is
rather unbiased from a Shabbos perspective.

So RMP and I wondered -- Is there a posek anywhere, who advises that on
Shabbos, people should try to eat foods which are Oleh Al Shulchan
Melachim? Or that advises people to avoid foods which are outside of that
category? I don't think anyone would actually *forbid* junk snacks on
Shabbos, but still, it sounds like a useful yardstick, and I wonder if
anyone suggests it.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Woman is 57 But Looks 27
Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/501a787bcc77b787b090bst52vuc

There are three things we *have* to learn regularly, and I bet it will be
shown this list is not complete.

- Shenayim Miqra veEchad Targum
- Kol hashoneh halakhos bekhol yom... And, as per R' Hai Gaon quoted in
  the Derishah quoted in the AhS cited on list yesterday.
- Rambam 2:2: Vehei'ach he haderekh le'ahavaso? ...

So, the minimal classically driven learning would apparently be:
    - Chumash with Targum or a lower-case-t targum

    - Qitzur or Chayei+Chokhmas Adam (or MB with something covering
      the relevent pieces of the other 3 turim). (The LR held the Rambam,
      but I would give more emphasis on someone whose pesaq has less
      consequent discussion and evolution. There are too many times
      "no one" outside the Bal'adi Teimanim hold like the Rambam. The
      SA haRav would more fit my mental image.)

    - Some kind of hashkafah yomi, but not midin talmud Torah, but to
      fulfil ahavas veyir'as Hashem. There really aren't any texts
      exclusively dedicated to the topic until the rishonim.

Talmud is lehavin davar mitoch davar (Hil TT 1:11), and while that should
be a minimum of a 3rd of your learning time, that isn't condusive to a
yomi format for many of us. (And recall that I personally /am/ learning
a talmud yomi, albeit a much shorter talmud with less on each daf.)

But I write in-house software for a hedge fund. In my line of work, one
can't simply plan what the new system ought to look like from a clean
slate. The traders can't simply stop making money during a switchover
from one paradigm to another. The ideal system is therefore one that
has a workable migration path to its adoption.

And daf yomi, for any limitation we might find in it for many or even
the majority of those committed to cycle #13, is what's out there. It
has the pull of popularity, it has the infrastructure, and it promotes
spending time with a seifer.

Pursuing the ideal might be appropriate for us contrarians who won't be
pulled by all that the daf yomi infrastructure has to offer. And Avodah by
its very nature will have a disproportionate number of us. But I can't
see it as serious comptetiion for the mainstream. As the AhS warns,
it will reduce overall learning and immersion in the learning culture
to tamper with the learning shas paradigm.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 05:17:13PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> <<RM wrote.. I don't know of anyone learning Rif Yomi.>>

> See Ma'aseh Rav #60.  If you have a copy of Ma'aseh Rav HaShalem see note 4.

I was speaking on the Areivim level. The Gra is not longer with us,
never mind his one person example not representing the resources and
peer support daf has. I think that's the metzi'us upon which we have
to build our theoretical goals, as per last post's "migration path"
idea.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

I'm not getting enough sleep. A second bit that I meant to have in the
first post but also need to add now. At 10:11am EDT, the third item on
my list was:
:     - Some kind of hashkafah yomi, but not midin talmud Torah, but to
:       fulfil ahavas veyir'as Hashem. There really aren't any texts
:       exclusively dedicated to the topic until the rishonim.

Notably, the two most influential sifrei machashavah amongst the rishonim
(IMHO) are very different from each other -- HaKuzari and Moreh Nevuchim.

Ideally hashkafah needs to be a personal choice. But if we were to
craft a yomi curriculum for people who wouldn't know where to begin,
but still wouldn't conform enough for daf or just can't do daf, the
contrast between those two sefarim would provide at least some sense of
the breadth of Jewish Thought.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org        yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 2/08/2012 6:12 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> From: Zev Sero<z...@sero.name>

>>  Geneivas Akum is assur min hatorah, isn't it?  Whereas where is*any*
>>  geneivas daas assur min hatorah?

> I was thinking about geneivas da'as aku"m having nothing to do with
> chilul H' (which is why I called it "more direct") and thus having no
> parallel to the situation of ta'us aku"m.

But how is it "more direct" than geneivas aku"m?


> Geneivas da'as is learned out from Vayiqra 19:11

If that's the makor then it says explicitly "ish ba'amiso".


> more to our point (but less supported) from Bereishis 31:20, "Vayignov
> Yaaqov es leiv Lavan", an instance of geneivas da'as aku"m.

And one that was muttar.  Ra'ayah listor!


> I would also note that midevar sheqer tirchaq is a reflexive lav

Which is directed to dayanim (and by extension litigants and witnesses),
isn't it?  Where do we see that it applies outside the context of a
court case?


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

The Rambam mentions the prohibition of?
Geneivas Daas twice. (Mechira 18:1 and Deios 2:7)?
In Hilchos Mechira he deals with the impact upon the other and upon him.?
In Hilchos Deios he deals with the ethics of anyone guilty of it and the spiritual "cancer of deceit"?.?
The Rambam also says (G'eneiva 1:1) that G'neivas Akum is worse than Gezel Akum presumbaly because of the added deceit.?
Likewise with Gneivas Daas (Mechira 18:1)
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life??
Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

--- On Thu, 8/2/12, T6...@aol.com <T6...@aol.com> wrote?

:
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>? >> Geneivas Akum 
is assur min hatorah, isn't it?? Whereas where is *any* geneivas
daas 
assur min hatorah?? <<


-- 
Zev 
Sero??????? 
?
?
>>>>
?
Lifnei iver lo siten michshol
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There is almost invariably some kind of clause dealing with a malfunctioned
water meter. The assessment is then done by some kind of average or by the
parallel period from the previous year. So whether it is nicha leih or not
would depend on what they would charge him otherwise, which is easily
calculable. If a person has little variance from month to month, he can
decide that he doesn't care if they use the meter or not, and it would be
lo echpas leih, which we pasken is the same as lo nicha leih.
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On 2/08/2012 6:42 AM, Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
> It's a machlokes haRishonim.  See Tosafos Shabbos 103a, d.h. "Lo tzricha,'
> wherein they quote the Aruch that if he does a melacha to another person's
> land, and doesn't particularly care for that other person's benefit, it
> is considered lo nicha lei.

The Aruch does seem to use it that way, but Tosfos rejects it.


On 2/08/2012 8:33 AM, Akiva Miller wrote:
> The question as I see it is this: Given that we DO have an obligation to
> pay for it, do we want the meter to operate properly or not? RZS asserts
> that "If the meter were to stop running you'd be happy, not sad", but
> I disagree strongly. If my meter were to stop running, then my choices
> would be:

> 1) steal the water outright
> 2) use the water, but discuss payment with the water company either
> before or after actually using it.
> 3) stop using the water

I reject your premise that continuing to use the water when the meter is
not running is stealing. If the company wants to charge me it's its job
to keep track of how much water I use; if its meter has stopped running,
that's its problem, not mine. It has never required me to check the meter
before using water, indeed I'm not meant to take any notice of the meter;
it's the company's property (incidentally giving the company a toehold
in my property, and thus allowing it to rent out my property for eruvin
purposes) and it's none of my business whether it's running or not.
My obligation is to pay the bill when it arrives.

In addition, I don't agree that using water without paying for it is
actually "stealing", since the water is not the company's property; I'm
paying for its services in bringing the water to my home. But that's
a side issue.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Doron Beckerman <beck...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There is almost invariably some kind of clause dealing with a
> malfunctioned water meter. The assessment is then done by some kind of
> average or by the parallel period from the previous year.
>
If I remember correctly, my father told me that their water provider only
take readings over a one month period and then charge you for the rest of
the year based on your usage during that month. Of course, they choose the
month with the highest water usage.

In a situation like this, it would seem to me to be definitely not Nicha
Lei for them to be taking the measurement.

Kol Tuv,
-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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