Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 124

Thu, 06 Sep 2012

• 1. L'Ayin Haya Noteh (Liron Kopinsky)
• 2. Re: Sweetened condensed milk (Andy Levy-Stevenson)
• 3. Re: bal tosif (T6...@aol.com)
• 4. nervousness and trepidation (SBA)
• 5. Re: Sweetened condensed milk (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: nervousness and trepidation (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: nervousness and trepidation (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Sweetened condensed milk (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Re: Sweetened condensed milk (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Re: L'Ayin Haya Noteh (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: FW: RSRH on Metzitzeh bePeh (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: FW: RSRH on Metzitzeh bePeh (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Sweetened condensed milk (Akiva Miller)
• 14. Re: Going beyond the norm for Elul (T6...@aol.com)
• 15. Re: siyum kaddish (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 16. Going beyond the norm for Elul (Prof. Levine)

On Rosh Hashana 23B, the mishna states that we ask the eidim "L'Ayin Haya
Noteh", which Rashi explains that we are asking whether the points of the
crescent are pointing north or south.

At Rosh Chodesh, the sun should be ahead of the moon, thus making the moon
appear like a backwards C. In such a situation, at sunset (which, Rashi
says, is when the new moon is visible), the sun would be to the north of
the moon, and therefore the crescent would be a backwards C with the points
of the crescent pointing towards the south,

But Rashi, DH L'Ayin Haya Noteh, says that the moon pointing north looks
like this "[)" and pointing south looks like this "(]", which is the
opposite of what I would expect.

How am I misunderstanding this Rashi?

Kol Tuv,

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120906/e3207539/attachment-0001.htm>

From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
> I have a cousin who is married to a hareidi guy.  She was just told by
> her husband that he was just told by his father that no matter what the
> hechsher, sweetened condensed milk is treif.

Never heard of that.

 From a quick Google, is it possible that there's some confusion? There
is a fair amount of discussion online about sweetened condensed milk
and Passover ... it often uses corn syrup.

So, I could imagine a situation where there's a Pesachdik version that
Ashkenazim wouldn't use. Therefore, "no matter what the hechsher" it's
"treif" (actually kitniyot, but changed in the transmission).

Or alternatively, it could be a chumra I've never heard of.

--
Andy Levy-Stevenson

 

>> It was done in a way so it was clear it was not part of  the parsha and 
so no
problem of ba-al tosif. <<   

 
 
>>>>>
 
A small but very common error.   Once again it should be pointed  out that 
the word is "bal" -- a two-letter word meaning "Do not."  "Bal  tosif" = "Do 
not add."
 
 
It is not "owner of tosif" (bais-ayin-lamed) nor is it "with a do-not"  
(bais followed by aleph-lamed).  It is just bais-lamed.  Thank  you.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
=============



------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120906/e30185a4/attachment-0001.htm>

From: harchinam < >
>>Aren't we in Elul? I guess some people use a  different calendar than we
do....

> There is something about statements like this about it being in Elul that
bothers me
=
... Aren't you getting nervous about the coming days of judgement? I
generally have at least a certain amount of nervousness and trepidation in
this month
>>

Yomom Moyro'im, rather than Yomim Noyro'im...?

On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 12:52:10PM +0300, Andy Levy-Stevenson wrote:
: From a quick Google, is it possible that there's some confusion? There
: is a fair amount of discussion online about sweetened condensed milk
: and Passover ... it often uses corn syrup.

I think it's a misunderstanding, but about chalav Yisrael. Baker's Choice
makes condensed milk (sweetened and not) that as of Jun 2011 or so was
relabeled "condensed cream" by gov't request. Perhaps he heard that no
condensed *milk* is actually made entirely from a powder, so that even
those who do not require CY for reconstituted milk still won't permit
condensed milk.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 11:19:21PM +1000, SBA wrote:
: Yomom Moyro'im, rather than Yomim Noyro'im...?

Both are from /y-r-a/. How do nora and mora differ?

When Avos 1:3 speaks of "mora Shamayim" is it something different than
the usual idiom of yir'as Shamayim? Isn't "mah nora hamaqom hazeh" (Yaaqov
avinu, when waking up from the ladder dream) an example of Mora Miqdash?

LAD, and I invite Mesorah crowd to chime in:

"Mora" would refer to the actual emotion that underlies fear and awe.
(Realization of magnitude?) Therefore I'm not sure there is a "mora'im"
but if it does exist, perhaps it would mean yir'as ha'onesh vs yir'as
hacheit vs yir'as haRomemus, vs fear of dying... different kinds of
yir'ah.

Whereas "nora'im" would be the proper adjective to use when referring
to a collection of things you feel yir'ah toward.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When you come to a place of darkness,
mi...@aishdas.org        you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org   You light a candle.
Fax: (270) 514-1507        - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

Thinking more.... Instinctive, primal, fear is probably more "pachad"
than yir'ah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 9/6/2012 4:52 AM, Andy Levy-Stevenson wrote:
> From: Lisa Liel<l...@starways.net>
>> I have a cousin who is married to a hareidi guy.  She was just told by
>> her husband that he was just told by his father that no matter what the
>> hechsher, sweetened condensed milk is treif.
...
> From a quick Google, is it possible that there's some confusion? There
> is a fair amount of discussion online about sweetened condensed milk
> and Passover ... it often uses corn syrup.

> So, I could imagine a situation where there's a Pesachdik version that
> Ashkenazim wouldn't use...
...

My cousin thinks it might have something to do with some brouhaha about 
powdered milk from back in the 50s.

Lisa

On 9/6/2012 4:52 AM, Andy Levy-Stevenson wrote:
> From: Lisa Liel<l...@starways.net>
>> I have a cousin who is married to a hareidi guy.  She was just told by
>> her husband that he was just told by his father that no matter what the
>> hechsher, sweetened condensed milk is treif.
...
> From a quick Google, is it possible that there's some confusion? There
> is a fair amount of discussion online about sweetened condensed milk
> and Passover ... it often uses corn syrup.

> So, I could imagine a situation where there's a Pesachdik version that
> Ashkenazim wouldn't use...
...

My cousin thinks it might have something to do with some brouhaha about 
powdered milk from back in the 50s.

Lisa

On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 09:06:59AM +0300, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: At Rosh Chodesh, the sun should be ahead of the moon, thus making the moon
: appear like a backwards C. In such a situation, at sunset (which, Rashi
: says, is when the new moon is visible)

I'm pausing RLK here to add explanation to help people visualize...
Only the last paragraph of this post actually answers his question.

When there is no moon visible, the moon is on the same side of the earth
as the sun. (At least on the east-west axis. Unless there is an exclipse,
it's not lined up with the son on the north-south one.)

Then on Rosh Chodesh, the moon rises and sets just after the sun does.
So yes, right after sunset is the only time the moon is out at night.

And so on each day, rising and settinh slightly later, so that at the
full moon, the moon is entirely out of sync with the sun -- rising
when the sun is setting. This way, it rises 28.5 times in the 29.5 day
month; both numbers rough. And then they're lined up again.

:                                         the sun would be to the north of
: the moon, and therefore the crescent would be a backwards C with the points
: of the crescent pointing towards the south,

In the northern hemisphere, rising means heading south of east.
At noon the sun is south of the middle of the sky. And then it sets 
by heading north west. The sun and moon are never in the north half of
the sky, since we're looking southward to see things that are over
the equater.

This is why north is tzafon, from tzafun = hidden.

We said that on RC, the moon is slightly trailing the sun. So, after
noon it's slightly south east of the sun. And when the sun sets, it's
slightly south-east of the western horizon.

It will be the lower side that is nearer the sun, and thus lit up. So
the dark part, with the horns of the crescent above and below it, will
be pointing south-east -- away from the horizon (behind which the sun
is hiding). Looking like it's pointing back upward. Rashi would call
that pointing south.

: But Rashi, [RH 23b] DH L'Ayin Haya Noteh, says that the moon pointing
: north looks like this "[)" and pointing south looks like this "(]",
: which is the opposite of what I would expect.

North is ahead, and south is behind, on the trail of the moon shortly
before it sets. Within Hebrew text, a crescent that points ahead would
be (poorly) drawn as "[)". Picture if Rashi had written in English:
"The heads on either side of the missing piece were pointing which
way? Were they pointing north like this (] or to the south like [)?" By
translating to a language that goes the other way, my diagrams reverse.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Sep 05, 2012 at 06:05:15PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
:> The Levush Mordechai (#30), notably a Litvak, argues that metzizah bepeh
:> is so repulsive of a concept, how could anyone think we instituted it
:> if it weren't a chiyuv? He also leaves open the question as to whether
:> someone who didn't have metzitzah, which he assumes requires MbP, is an
:> orel or can he eat from the qorban Pesach! R' YL Diskin makes the same
:> argument, which the IM rejects (YD 1:223)...

:> My point being... There are two sides to the issue. It's non-trivial,
:> and it's really not for us on one tzad to tell the other tzad to reject
:> centuries of teshuvos from their qehillah and others. Doubly so when
:> the people doing the call for dimissal are the historical innovators.

: WADR to the Levush Mordechai, his argument in favor of MbP is a Sevara
: and TTBOMK not sourced anywhere in the Gemarah or the Rishonim...

It is one of the arguments of one acharon among many who requires MbP. I
also mentioned the LM (and R' YL Diskin) is unique in (1) being a Litvak
who holds this way, and (2) calling the resulting child an areil. So
I'm not sure why this one point is worth discussing and losing sight of
the general machloqes. What about those who are medayeiq in the lashon
of the gemara or the Rambam? What about those who believe MbP has to
do with milah's connection to *eating* from the eitz hada'as and the
consequent kusones or?

: Peh?was used not because of a D'Oraisa, but because it is obvioulsy the
: best way of withdrawing the blood from the wound so it wouldn't become
: a source of collected bacteria and ultimately infected. ?

MbP was the only metzitzah practiced for three millenia. (Eg the
Rama.) How do you know why? And why are you insisting it's related to
bacteria when no one is talking about replacing metzitzah with anti
bacterial cream (or some other more effective alternative for killing
bacteria)?

You're guessing about "the best way of withdrawing the blood from the
wound", and insisting that dozens of posqim should be ignored in favor
of that guess.

: You say that "the shu"t Meishiv Nefesh (2:6) concludes from this that
: the Rambam held metzitzah was part?of the mitzvah"

: What does that have to do with anything??In no way do I say that
: Metzitza should not be done...

No, you just say it's done for medical reasons. Whereas the MN concludes
it was for deOraisa ones unrelated to medicine. This dismisses your
argument that bepeh is simply an efficient way to do metzitzah.

Also, recall that RSRH is among those who hold the mitzvah is specifically
metzitzah bepeh, and is only meiqil in considering using a tzinor as
still being bepeh. Leshitaso, not just that of those who require direct
contact, MbP is because G-d said so. Nothing about efficient ways to
remove bacteria.

Eilu va'eilu. We meiqilim shouldn't be in the business of trying to
win a machloqes by gov't intervention. We should instead be supporting
campaigns to teach mohalim to use disinfectant or even better, to teach
fathers whose posqim require MbP not to use a shaliach for metzitzah.
Both of which would reduce risk.

We are talking about 11 cases in a 12 year span that the Agudah estimates
included 3,500 MbP/year. IOW, 2.6 cases per 10,000. Until you invest the
same effort to teach people driving in frum neighborhoods to drive more
defensively, which killed 1430 per 10,000 in the same span, this isn't
the wisest use of our time.

BTW, the marginal risk increase of MbP over milah is far far smaller
than the risk of milah over areilus. (Excluding disease and cancer rate
reductions for circumcized men.) If we let the gov't step in, we'll be
burning the Rambam one day and left with no shasin at all to learn from
the next. Just ask RAFolger and anyone else of the chevrah in Germany
(and now Austria and Switzerland).

But back to the Avodah side of things... There are two shitos. Your
ancestors and mine may have accepted one. Your personal opinion may
favor that one. But someone following their community's pesaqim isn't
expected to follow your argument, or an agreeing poseiq's argument,
over his own. And his loyalty to halakhah as his qehillah holds it to
be is worth accepting more risk than the risk of crossing the street or
putting a baby to sleep with a pillow in their crib.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Adding more sources to those in my prior post. On Wed, Sep 05, 2012 at
6:23:06PM EDT, I wrote:
: Within Qabbalah, orlah is associated with the kusones or of Adam after the
: cheit, and thus requires curing via that part of the body that performed
: the cheit. I do not have a mar'eh maqom, but I saw this attributed to
: a source well before the3 MbP controversy of the CS's day -- R' Avraham
: Azulai (Morocco, EY; c 1570-1643, the Chida's gg-grandfather and a talmid
: of the Ohr haChaim).

RAA's source is apparently Tiqunei Zohar, tiqun 18. Apparently those of
us who didn't have MbP are missing out on the essence of "peh el peh
adabeir bo" (peh = 85 = milah) and "Hashem sefasai tiftach". So, the
most meiqil a mequbal could hold would be like RSRH -- one needs MbP,
but using a tzinor is still bepeh.

Add to RSRH the Kovno Rav. R' Yitzchaq Elachanan Spector confirmed RSRH's
shitah when R' Hirsch asked for a pesaq. RSRH allows a tzinor when the
family insists; RYES only allows using it when the gov't won't permit
direct bepeh.

: I should also note that while most defenses of metzitzah and MbP in
: particular start in the 19th century, this isn't necessarily because
: it was a chiddush. Rather, EVERYONE did MbP, and no one questioned its
: status until then. Silence came from taking it for granted (c.f. Rama
: YD 265:10 telling you to spit the blood into the dirt), not disimissing
: it! Veharaayah, Sephardim weren't touched by any of these battles,
: and never questioned MbP or even looked to see if alternatives were valid.

The Machzor Vitri (#505) also takes use of the mouth for granted.

As for other acharonim who require *direct* (non-tzinor) MbP, there
is also the Maharam Shik (YD 244), and R' Yehudah Asad. The Maharam
Shik's argument is simply that metzitzah is deOraisa in addition to being
medical. Since metzizah has been done bepeh since Giv'as ha'Aralos in the
days of Yehoshua, we would need proof that alternatives are valid. Last,
the Maharam Shik himself was a mohel, and says he never had a problem.
He blames mohelim who don't take proper precautions, rather than MbP
itself being a medical problem. This might be true of today's situation
as well.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

R"n Lisa Liel wrote:

> I have a cousin who is married to a hareidi guy. She was just
> told by her husband that he was just told by his father ...

Sounds like a classic Urban Legend to me.

> ... that no matter what the hechsher, sweetened condensed milk
> is treif. Has anyone heard about something like this?

Who can know what the father actually said, or even if he really did say
anything at all? But my guess is that he might have been talking about
Chalav Hacompanies, and perhaps pointing out that condensed milk does not
have the leniencies that butter has.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5048ed678424e6d671fcbst01vuc

 


On Areivim (under the subject line "The soldier returns to the TAY BHMD")  
RSBA wrote:

 
>>Subject: Re: [Areivim] The soldier returns to the TAY  BHMD...
>> ...dressed in civilian clothing - and gets an  Aliyah
>> Proving that it was the uniform - and not the person - that  caused the
>>ruckus.
>> _http://www.bhol.co.il/Article.aspx?id=44262_ 
(http://www.bhol.co.il/Article.aspx?id=44262) 

 
(This had to do with a soldier who was asked to leave a shul because he was 
 in uniform, but when he went to the same shul dressed in civilian clothes 
he was  given an aliyah.)




R'n RF wrote:
 
>How impressive. Not.

>In other words, the hooligans who daven  at this shul feel that the
>Arabs have it right. Oh, it's not personal --  we just attack anyone in
>a uniform.

>Maybe not attacking people  who come to daven is a better idea? Radical
>concept, I know. Aren't we in  Elul? I guess some people use a
>different calendar than we  do....

*** Rena
 
To this, RYL responded:
 
>> There is something about statements like this about it being in  Elul
that bothers me. Are we supposed to think that we can "fool"  HaShem
by behaving in a certain way during Elul and then returning to  our
"old" ways? It seems to me that behavior and actions are  either
appropriate and correct from a Torah standpoint the entire year or not  at 
all. <<

YL
 
 
Then RMB moved the thread to Avodah and wrote:
 

>> It's a good question, but since the notion of avoiding pas  palter and
other such chumeros during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah is well  established (SA
OC 603:1 mentions "pas shel kutim"; see also MB s"q 1.) So, I  don't think
your sevara is sufficient to upshlug a notion that is practiced  the next
10 days by a large segment of Kelal Yisrael with the support of  numerous
sefarim. <<
 
>>>>>
 
What I would like to add, along somewhat related lines to what RMB wrote,  
is this:
 
Everyone has heard enough drashos by now to know that this is a common  
theme for about half the Jewish year. How can you behave like that, during  
sefirah? During the Three Weeks? During the Nine Days? In Elul? In  Tishrei?  
Just before Chanukah? So close to Purim? With Pesach right around  the 
corner? We lurch from guilt day to guilt day, with an eye on the calendar to  keep 
the yetzer hara at bay....
 



--Toby  Katz
=============



------------------------------------------------------------------- 





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120906/b47e5db3/attachment-0001.htm>

<IIRC, at a levayah, the long version of the kaddish is said only on days
when Tachanun is recited.  On days without tachnun, a regular kaddish yasom
is said after the kevurah.

Why is this distinction not made at a siyum?  I have never seen the long
kaddish replaced with a regular kaddish derabbanan at a siyum, even on
Shabbos.>	  The long kaddish is omitted on non-tachanun days (and at
all night burials) because it is said as the finale of tzidduk hadin, and
tzidduk hadin is not said when tachanun isn't.	Obviously, its use at a
siyum has no connection with tzidduk hadin, and hence there is no reason
not to say it at any siyum. EMT
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120906/ba38abfb/attachment-0001.htm>

At 05:21 AM 9/6/2012, R. Micha wrote:

>On Wed, Sep 05, 2012 at 01:08:50PM -0400, Prof. Levine asked on Areivim:
> >> Maybe not attacking people who come to daven is a better idea? Radical
> >> concept, I know. Aren't we in Elul? I guess some people use a
> >> different calendar than we do....
> >
> > There is something about statements like this about it being in Elul
> > that bothers me.  Are we supposed to think that we can "fool" HaShem by
> > behaving in a certain way during Elul and then returning to our "old"
> > ways?  It seems to me that behavior and actions are either appropriate
> > and correct from a Torah standpoint the entire year or not at all.
>
>It's a good question, but since the notion of avoiding pas palter and
>other such chumeros during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah is well established (SA
>OC 603:1 mentions "pas shel kutim"; see also MB s"q 1.)

Perhaps I am wrong here, but I thought that eating Pas Palter was a 
heter that was given for Jews who could not easily obtain Pas 
Yisroel, and the halacha is that if possible one should eat Pas Yisroel.

If so, then I see no chumra here when it comes to eating Pas 
Yisroel.  We are simply supposed to observe the halacha and not rely 
on this leniency.

>  So, I don't think
>your sevara is sufficient to upshlug a notion that is practiced the next
>10 days by a large segment of Kelal Yisrael with the support of numerous
>sefarim.

Given what I wrote above,  I do not see the avoidance of Pas Palter 
during the Aseres Yemei as in any way contradicting my statement that 
"behavior and actions are either appropriate  and correct from a 
Torah standpoint the entire year or not at all.

YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20120906/d8b14fce/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 30, Issue 124
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."