Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 125

Sat, 08 Sep 2012

• 1. Re: RSRH on Metzitzeh bePeh (T6...@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Going beyond the norm for Elul (Zev Sero)
• 3. Eating Pas Yisrael During Aseres Yemei Teshuva (Prof. Levine)
• 4. kaddish (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: Eating Pas Yisrael During Aseres Yemei Teshuva (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Eating Pas Yisrael During Aseres Yemei Teshuva (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Ki Savo (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 8. Administrivia: Avodah in Hebrew status report (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: L'Ayin Haya Noteh (Liron Kopinsky)
• 10. Re: L'Ayin Haya Noteh (Micha Berger)
• 11. The Future of the Sefer (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 12. Re: Eating Pas Yisrael During Aseres Yemei Teshuva (Rich, Joel)
• 13. recalling the 10 plagues during the Bikkurim Ceremony (Meir Rabi)
• 14. Lavan falsely accused? (David Wacholder)

 

From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>


>> No,  you just say it's done for medical reasons. Whereas the MN concludes
it was  for deOraisa ones unrelated to medicine. This dismisses your
argument that  bepeh is simply an efficient way to do metzitzah.

Also, recall that RSRH  is among those who hold the mitzvah is specifically
metzitzah bepeh, and is  only meiqil in considering using a tzinor as
still being bepeh. Leshitaso,  not just that of those who require direct
contact, MbP is because G-d said  so. Nothing about efficient ways to
remove bacteria.

Eilu va'eilu. We  meiqilim shouldn't be in the business of trying to
win a machloqes by gov't  intervention. ...
We are talking about 11 cases in a 12 year span that the  Agudah estimates
included 3,500 MbP/year. IOW, 2.6 cases per 10,000.  <<
 
-- 
Micha  Berger              
mi...@aishdas.org         




>>>>>
 
A recent article in Mishpacha about this pointed out that the number of  
fatal infections acquired by newborns in hospitals each year is  greater than 
the number of infections following milah by many orders of  magnitude.  Yet 
there is no government outcry about the rate of infection  in hospitals, no 
campaign to persuade women to give birth at home and avoid  hospitals at all 
costs.
 
One statement made here by RMB is particularly important:  we must not  
settle our internal eilu ve'eilu differences at the point of a government  gun. 
 Our long history shows that inviting the government into our tents  never 
bodes well for us.
 

--Toby  Katz
=============



------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 



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On 6/09/2012 4:32 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>
> Perhaps I am wrong here, but I thought that eating Pas Palter was a
> heter that was given for Jews who could not easily obtain Pas Yisroel,
> and the halacha is that if possible one should eat Pas Yisroel.
>  If so, then I see no chumra here when it comes to eating Pas Yisroel.
>  We are simply supposed to observe the halacha and not rely on this leniency.

I don't believe that is true.  AIUI the *reason* for the heter was that
pas yisroel is not always easily obtainable, but the heter itself was
for everybody, so it is mutar lechatchila to take advantage of it even
in the heart of Borough Park or Yerushalayim, but a yerei shamayim ought
to be mehader and not do so.   But even if your understanding were
correct, how are you not seeing the chumra on AYT?  There is no question
that one who has difficulty obtaining pas yisroel is allowed to eat pas
palter, and yet during AYT he should avoid it.   How is that *not* a
chumra?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

 From http://tinyurl.com/8l8aog2


BACKGROUND

As part of their overall strategy to guard the Jewish People from 
assimilating among the nations of the world, our Sages decreed 
against eating [kosher] bread that was baked by a non-Jew.(1) This 
edict was one of several which served to limit social interaction 
between Jews and non- Jews. Thus non-Jewish wine, bread, and certain 
cooked foods were all declared off-limits for the Jew.(2)

Since bread is so much more of a dietary staple than other cooked 
foods - indeed, the Rabbis call it chayei nefesh, the vital element 
of the diet - the decree against non-Jewish bread was not as widely 
accepted as the decrees against other cooked foods.(3) Consequently, 
in many communities where quality Jewish-baked bread was not easily 
available, it became customary to eat pas palter, which is kosher 
bread that is baked in non- Jewish bakeries. The rationale behind 
allowing pas palter is that eating bread that was baked in a 
non-Jewish bakery does not lead to mingling and socializing with non-Jews.(4)

Although eating pas palter became commonplace and was endorsed by the 
leading authorities of the day, it was not universally accepted. 
Indeed, as soon as Jewish-baked bread was available, the Rabbinical 
decree against pas palter was reinstated in some communities, and 
non-Jewish bread was not an option. Only Jewish-baked bread, called 
pas Yisrael, was allowed. Thus, depending upon the locality, this 
Rabbinic decree was observed in varying degrees:

1. Some communities adhered to it strictly, not allowing any pas 
palter at all.(5)

2. Some communities allowed pas palter only when there was no other 
pas Yisrael available.(6)

3. Others allowed pas palter to be eaten even when there was pas 
Yisrael available, but only if the pas Yisrael was not of the same 
quality or type.(7)

4. Others allowed pas palter to be eaten even when pas Yisrael of the 
same quality and type was available.(8)

Even today, when pas Yisrael of the best quality is available almost 
everywhere, there are still many communities who rely on the custom 
of yesteryear and allow the consumption of pas palter,(9) especially 
when pas Yisrael of similar quality or type is not available.(10)

Shulchan Aruch advises, however, that during Aseres yemei teshuvah 
everyone should be careful to eat only pas Yisrael.(11) There are 
several reasons, all inter-related, for this halachah: a) so that we 
conduct ourselves with an extra measure of purity during these Days 
of Awe;(12) b) to serve as a reminder of the unique status of these 
days;(13) c) to beseech Hashem not to judge us stringently, just as 
we have adopted a practice which is not strictly required of us.(14)

11 O.C. 603:1. From the way the halachah is presented in Shulchan 
Aruch and Mishnah Berurah, it sounds as if it is a requirement. (See 
also Teshuvos Nachalas Shivah 72, who rules that it is an absolute 
obligation.) Chayei Adam 143:1, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 130:2 and Aruch 
ha-Shulchan, though, quote this halachah as the "proper" thing to do, 
not as an obligation.

See the above URL for the other footnotes and more.

Given the above,  I fail to see how one can categorize eating only 
Pas Yisroel during the Aseres Yemei Teshuva as a chumra. The fact 
that something is a requirement according to some does not make it a 
chumra IMO.  According to the Chayei Adam 143:1, Kitzur Shulchan 
Aruch 130:2 and Aruch ha-Shulchan it is certainly not a Chumra. YL

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<IIRC, at a levayah, the long version of the kaddish is said only on days
when Tachanun is recited.  On days without tachnun, a regular kaddish yasom
is said after the kevurah. >>

In most funerals I have aattended in EY only the regular kaddish is recited
not the long version, all year round

-- 
Eli Turkel
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1- I'm no sure whether this notion of not following a qulah vs adopting
a chumerah is a real distinction. It's a little arbitrary to say that
it's chumerah vs baseline law or it's baseline law vs qulah.

2- The distinction, even if real, isn't relevent to the comparison of
pas palter to the original objection about people asking us how we could
post in some tone / on some topic during Elul. "Do you think you're
fooling Hashem?"

In either case, we are saying that the person is doing during 10 Yemei
Teshuvah something that he doesn't consider necessary during the rest of
the year. And he isn't trying to fool Hashem by trying to avoid a qulah
he normally uses nor by trying to follow a chumerah he normally doesn't.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org         - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

2- The distinction, even if real, isn't relevent to the comparison of
pas palter to the original objection about people asking us how we could
post in some tone / on some topic during Elul. "Do you think you're
fooling Hashem?"

-------------------------------------------------------------
IMHO we close to a throwing out of the juice and eating the pits situation.
One approach is to view the 10 days as a chance to raise the level of our
game in a way such that even if we can't maintain that level all year long,
we raise our baseline level somewhat and remind ourselves aspirationally of
what we would like to be. I'd humbly suggest that pas yisroel is a fine
thing but for most of us not the primary challenge we face in our avodat
hashem so by all means do it, but the real question isn't "Do you think
you're
fooling Hashem?", it's   "Are you fooling Yourself?"
KT
Joel Rich

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"But Hashem did not give you a heart to
understand or eyes to see until today."

I've seen various interpretations for this pasuk.
The way I understand it (and I'm sure it's no chiddush)
is that "until today" they didn't need to be given a heart
to understand or eyes to see because they were dealing
constantly with the supernatural. Having seen all of the 
phenomenal miracles, they didn't need a "heart" to understand
or "eyes" to see (metaphorically speaking). However, once 
they come down to the natural reality, they (and we) needed the
heart and eyes.

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Well, I found a way to get Avodah digests to work with Hebrew. However,
in order to do so, I would have to produce a Hebrew digest that accepts
English. IOW, the subject would read (in Hebrew letters) "Taqtzir shel
Avodah, kerach 30, gilyon 109". The top of the digest would list "Nos'ei
HaYom". Etc...

I need to know if this would exclude anyone from being able to read Avodah.

I can bounce you a digest from a test list I was experimenting on, if you
need to check.

Then I would have to update the moderation and archival software to deal
with Hebrew keywords.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> North is ahead, and south is behind, on the trail of the moon shortly
>
before it sets. Within Hebrew text, a crescent that points ahead would
> be (poorly) drawn as "[)". Picture if Rashi had written in English:
> "The heads on either side of the missing piece were pointing which
> way? Were they pointing north like this (] or to the south like [)?" By
> translating to a language that goes the other way, my diagrams reverse.
>

I don't understand your answer. Whether you are writing in hebrew or
english, the moon, at the new moon, must look like "[)". Why would the
diagrams reverse in one language or the other?

Further, we have already described that the sun is to the north of the moon
in its trajectory at RCh, and therefore, the lit up side of the moon is the
right (i.e. north) side of the moon, with the points of the moon pointing
backwards, towards the south. Rashi didn't say that the crescent is
pointing north or south, but the "Roshei haPegima". I took this to mean the
top and bottom points of the crescent. If my understanding is correct, then
a moon looking like "[)" has the Roshei haPegima pointing towards the
south, not the north.

Kol Tuv,
Liron
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On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 07:11:51PM +0300, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
:> "The heads on either side of the missing piece were pointing which
:> way? Were they pointing north like this (] or to the south like [)?" By
:> translating to a language that goes the other way, my diagrams reverse.

: I don't understand your answer. Whether you are writing in hebrew or
: english, the moon, at the new moon, must look like "[)". Why would the
: diagrams reverse in one language or the other?

(] and [) are not only mirror images, they are also the same shape rotated
180 deg. IOW, if you are facing the other direction, my [) will look like
(] to you. Your insistance that a moon with the "horns" pointing north
must be drawn like "[)" translates to your assuming that north is to the
left, ie east on top. A logical assumption, east is usually "up" in maps
of that era, particularly Jewish ones. If we draw it with west on top,
then "horns" pointing north would be "(]".

For the same reason, whether the "horns" actually pointed left or right
would not be consistent among eidim who are facing each other.

My answer assumed that Rashi wasn't so much turning the page of his
notebook into a map (E on top) but turning the line of text into the
path of the moon. And therefore even though W on top would be weird,
that wasn't his consideration. Not east, west, north, south, but forward
vs backward.

Since the moon is heading north (actually, somewhat north-west), north
is toward the end of the sentence. Which is why I said it depends on the
direction used by the language you're writing in.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

In the recent August 30th Jewish Action Magazine, there was a critique by Avi Muschel of an article by Gil Student entitled "The Future of the Sefer."
The following is an excerpt from Muschel's critique: 

"While acknowledging that our generation is unfocused and impatient, Rabbi Student argues that it is our approach to the study of Torah that must be modified. 
Although he acknowledges that Shabbos provides an escape from being wired, he suggests that we modify our techniques of weekday Torah learning to accommodate 
the Internet?s standards. This concession is painful and fundamentally
problematic. Is it not an article of our faith that we must protect Torah
from the raging forces of modern societal change?"

Personally, I feel the fact that Muschel feels "This concession is painful and fundamentally problematic. 
Is it not an article of our faith that we must protect Torah from the raging forces of modern societal change?" 
is an indication that Muschel doesn't understand the context. Gil's suggestion is no different from many things
that change due to different circumstances and are sanctioned by respected poskim. What Muschel refers to
as the concession being painful and problematic is a very subjective statement. It is Muschel's lack of understanding
that causes him pain. The changes that occur due to technology, etc. in no way fails to protect Torah from "the raging
forces of modern societal change."  I think Rabbi Gil Student is on the mark!  Shkoiach!!

BTW Rabbi Sperber in Minhagei Yisrael volume 2 page 136 understands this
minhag as derivative from a minhag in the yerushalmi to eat b'tahara during
that time period. Since pat akum was likely  to be mkabeil tuma it would be
avoided (supports my earlier feeling that we kept the form and missed the
substance)
KT
Joel Rich

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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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Thank you.

Kitzur Piskey Tosafos Menachos mentions that the 10 plagues were read
during the Bikkurim Ceremony. It is not mentioned in Tosafos.
Can anyone enlighten?

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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>  Until I saw the Ibn Ezra in the "Mechokekei Yehudah" I fell victim to a
> simple minded attack on one of my ancestors. As of today I have abandoned
> that approach.  No longer will I claim that Lavan determined to cause harm
>  to his son-in-law and family.  I am very happy to be able to put the
> spotlight back onto Hashem's enduring caring and protection.
>
> The Torah commands us to bring Bickurim and say a Viduy, a public speech.
> It begins "Arami oveid Avi", - commonly understood as  focusing on Lavan's
> evil intentions, which were defeated by Hashem.   Even thoughLavan  never
> acted on it, due to persuasive advice he received in a dream-prophecy,
> Lavan's "evil ambition" is hinted strongly,  in the Mikdash by every
> bringer of Bikkurim, and at every Seder Pesach.
>
>
> Do Chaza"l attribute such destructive  intentions to Lavan?  Certainly
> that is the "common" way to explain the Hagada passage.  Lavan - a/k/a
> Aramean - tried to recover his flocks by fighting war against his own
> family, whatever damage may occur.   .
>
>  Ibn Ezra begs to disagree - and he is correct.
> IBN EZRA stresses the verb  Oveid -  It is the same language as the lost
> wandering cattle of Hashavat Aveidah.  Yaakov was deprived of his family
> and servants, alone, isolated, impoverished and afraid.  That easily
> qualifies as "Aveidah". He was Oveid, wandering. In passive mood he was
> lost and abandoned and impoverished.
>
>
>
>   This trust is expressed when the First Fruits come through every year.
> Hashem's "parental" commitment is unilateral, irreversable  and unwavering.
>
>
>   According to Ibn Ezra's "wanderer" approach - how do we explain the
> familiar Hagada passage?
>
>
>   Hashem's compassion commitment and caring is unwavering. Even if the
> cleverest most diabolical and best equipped enemy cannot  overcome this
> Almighty Protection.  Lavan Ha'Arami is a euphemism, a risk-free device to
> discuss notorious implacable enemies of God and the Jewish people.  For
> centuries  years that was the Roman Empire,
>
>  Their murderous intent could not be expressed directly. We know that Rav
> Shimon Bar Yochai's much milder negative remarks were sufficient to have
> him arrested, had he not become a fugitive until he was forgotten by the
> Romans.
>
> The sense is that Hashem's protective shield is strong and dependable.
>  Even the most tyrannical and dictatorial murderers are prevented from
> harming the powerless Jews, just as he tirelessly protected Yaakov Avinu,
> and ultimately had him persevere and thrive.
>
>
> If one reads A-ROME-I - sounding sort of like our Roman governors -
>  wished they could destroy us, attempted to, and failed - the Drush works
> even on a phonetic level.The theme of the Viduy Bikkurim  is Hashem's
> ongoing commitment to protection of the powerless.  Yaakov is pictured as
> the loneliest most isolated Jew ever.  He had only the implacable Eisav and
> his evil wives as siblings. His parents were elderly and were in no
> position to help.
>
>

> Hashem showed his the depth of his "parenting"   by protecting the
> isolated Yaakov, and allowing him to thrive. Hashem helped Yaakov endure a
> second exile in Mitzrayim, even making him into Yisrael, founder of a
> numerous
>
>> The theme of the Viduy Bikkurim  is Hashem's ongoing commitment to
> protection of the powerless.  Yaakov is pictured as the loneliest most
> isolated Jew ever.  He had only the implacable Eisav and his evil wives as
> siblings. His parents were elderly and were in no position to help.
>
>
>> Hashem showed his the depth of his "parenting"   by protecting the
> isolated Yaakov, and allowing him to thrive. Hashem helped Yaakov endure a
> second exile in Mitzrayim, even making him into Yisrael, founder of a
> numerous nation.
>
>
>
> Nishmas Kol Chai - see Machzor Vitri page 148, referred to Va'eira el
> Avraham - ushmi H Y V H lo nodati lahem - I had no opportunity to test the
> limits of my patience tolerance and dedication with supremely righteous
> Avraham.
>
>

> Rashbam [Chezkuni decodes it] on Parshas Shmos explains a unilateral E H Y
> H commitment, repeated three times, first expressed from Heaven down to
> Earth, then becomes the covenant which includes Yisrael's  expression of
> commitment to reliance on the future continuation of Hashem's protection.l
> Avraham - ushmi H Y V H lo nodati lahem - I had no opportunity to test the
> limits of my patience tolerance and dedication with supremely righteous
> Avraham.
>
>
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