Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 133

Mon, 24 Sep 2012

• 1. Re: honoring the deceased's wish (Harry Maryles)
• 2. Re: honoring the deceased's wish (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Metz is required via Divine Revelation (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: honoring the deceased's wish (Harry Maryles)
• 5. Re: Mitochondrial DNA and the Mabul (Arie Folger)
• 6. Re: Can a Rasha do Teshuva? (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: Mitochondrial DNA and the Mabul (hankman)
• 8. Re: Metz on Shabbos for hypospadias, but not otherwise (Akiva Miller)
• 9. Re: honoring the deceased's wish (T6...@aol.com)
• 10. birkhat hagomel & women (Eli Turkel)
• 11. tunes on YK (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: honoring the deceased's wish (menucha)
• 13. Rav Breuer's Derech Halimud: The Way of Old Ashkenaz (Micha Berger)

---??From:?Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>?
>> I seem to recall someone posting here years ago the notion that we ignorerequests that violate minhagim of aveilus on the grounds that we can
assume that the niftar's wishes have changed now that they are niftar.

Maybe it was during our discussion of the survivor who wanted to be
buried in their striped uniform. He wanted to defend himself before the
beis din shel maalah by being able to point to his garment and declare
that he already served his time in gehenom, and thus there was only
one place to send him. (In that case, RMF pasqened that that particular
request should be met, despite the practice since Rabban Gamliel's day
of burying in white linen.) <<--------------------
I may have mentoned this before but...
My great, great grandfather going back 7 generations had this exact issue and the Sefer "Shaarim Mitzuyainim B'Halacha" ?'brings it down'.
Rav Shimon M'Yaroslav Maryles was a Talmud Muvhak of the Chozeh M'Lublin -
one of the early Chasidic masters. His father, R' Yisroel Leib Elbaum was
ardent Misnagid. He of course vehemently opposed his son's "conversion" to
Chasidus.?
On his death bed, R' Yisroel Leib told his son, R' Shimon, that if he said
"V'Yatzmach Pukonei V'Korev Meshichei" in Kaddish, then he should not say
Kaddish for him. After R' Yisroel Leib's Petrirah, R' Shimon said Kaddish
without that phrase.?
The Chozeh saw him saying Kaddish quietly and asked ?why he was not saying it louder so that everyone could hear him and answer properly.?
R' Shimon told him about his father's Tzava'ah. Whereupon the Chozeh told
him that R' Yisroel Leib was in the Olam Ha'Emes now and knew that the
correct Nusach was Nusach Sephard (which is used by most Chasidim) which
includes that phrase. Implying that he should start saying it.
I'm not sure what R' Shimon did after that. But at least one of my older
family members told me that R' Shimon continued to honor his father's
wishes after that.
HM


Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 



Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/



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On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 06:36:00AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: R' Shimon told him about his father's Tzava'ah. Whereupon the Chozeh
: told him that R' Yisroel Leib was in the Olam Ha'Emes now and knew that
: the correct Nusach was Nusach Sephard (which is used by most Chasidim)
: which includes that phrase. Implying that he should start saying it.

Lo bashamayim hi would imply that RYLH knowing what heaven thinks is more
correct doesn't mean he knows what we should be doing. No?

GCT!
-Micha

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 02:55:11AM +0000, Akiva Miller wrote:
: In other words, I am aware of the requirement of metzitzah, and I
: am also aware that the reason for metzitza is health-related. But I
: am totally unaware how Chazal came to the belief that a milah without
: metzitzah is dangerous. They may have gotten this belief through their
: own medical research and observation, or simply by relying on the medical
: research of others.

I disagree on both points.

Again, there are 4 or 5 steps mentioned in the mishnah:
    1-  milah
    2-  peri'ah
    3-  metzitzah
    4-  venosenin aleha asplonis
    4a- vekamon

WRT cleaning up remaining tzitzin on Shabbos, metzitzah is not treated
the same as bandaging or medicating. And the Rambam doesn't bother
mentioning bandaging medicating, but does mention metzitzah.

And this should pretty much close the metzitzah only on 6 days proposal,
IMHO. If metzitzah is enough part of milah to connect subsequent removal
of tzitzin to the original maaseh, lo kol shekein the metzizah itself!

It is far from clear to enough rishonim and acharonim that the reason
for metzitzah actually is health related. All the gemara says is that
there is a medical danger to not doing metzitzah; not that avoiding this
danger is the perpose of metzitzah. So, I wouldn't make it a given.

Of the shitos stated before the current contretemps, "only" the CS's is
consistent with assuming the purpose of metzitzah is medical. Not that he
necessarily holds it is medical; it could be that he holds metzitzah is
part of milah, but needn't be even remotely bepeh. Requiring a pipette,
so that metzitzah bepeh is met in some form or another, is not any more
consistent with the medical theory than using absorbtion by gauze or
sponge. Even if someone would explain to me how a medical practice can
evolve into a minhag, and a practice not specific to milah would become
a minhag of milah, I don't see how a medical practice that didn't require
bepeh would evolve into a minhag that does.

And we have a very well accepted sefer that gives a sevara for metzitzah
as a taam hamitzvah. (Tiqunei Zohar was published 5 years before the
SA, even if you don't attribute it, or this particular portion of it,
to Rashbi.)

As a second point, I also disagree with the idea that chazal's medicine
would more likely be revelatory than simply dependence on then-current
theory. We have no claim from Chazal that Hashem gave us special
knowledge of anything scientific other than the one case related to
qidush hachodesh.

Blood letting was practiced as far back as Egypt and Mesopotamia. (If
HQBH related metzitzah as a meical need to MRAH, he might have answered,
"Yeah, the court physician told me that back when I was a kid.") While
Greek "four humor" theory (mood and health are deemed the product of 4
different kinds of bodliy fluid) gave it more explanation and complexity,
Hippocrates actually plays down its importance in favor of cures based on
diet. By Chazal's day, it had already reached China via the Babylonians.
(As had the Metonic cycle; ie 7 leap months every 19 years.) So I think
it's an overstatement to call bloodletting in Chazal's day "science" --
it was considered "common knowledge".

I think it is a chiddush to say that Chazal asserted some medical common
knowledge that had been accepted for 2 millenia for reasons of our own.

BTW, it might be that before germ theory made it common practice to
sterilize the izmel and area, metzitzah would be critical even according
to today's medical theories. After all, it might keep many of the
infections otherwise acquired from non-sterile surgery from spreading.

Note that I'm not taking sides. I'm objecting to this idea that
"obviously" metzitzah is one or the other. We have to have the emunas
chakhamim that there is validity (eilu va'eilu) to shitos that disagree.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

--- On?Sun, 9/23/12, Micha Berger?<mi...@aishdas.org>?wrote:
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 06:36:00AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: R' Shimon told him about his father's Tzava'ah. Whereupon the Chozeh
: told him that R' Yisroel Leib was in the Olam Ha'Emes now and knew that
: the correct Nusach was Nusach Sephard (which is used by most Chasidim)
: which includes that phrase. Implying that he should start saying it.

Lo bashamayim hi would imply that RYLH knowing what heaven thinks is more
correct doesn't mean he knows what we should be doing. No?--------------------------------
Agree. Of course I Daven Nusach Ashkenaz so I may be Nogeah B'Davar. :)
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 



Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

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R' Micha suggested an approach based on seeing news and regard as two
different superimposed reality that are alternatively perceived based on
one's spiritual refinement. That view of yours, which you base on the
Maharal, was a topic I brought past Shabbos when discussing the role of
teshuva in international affairs (Ashur lo yoshi'enu). But regarding the
mabul, I wanted to explore the epistemologically more difficult angle
(though it is philosophically easier, gai vais . That was intentional.

mit freundlichen Gr??en,
With kind regards,
--Arie Folger
Check out my blog at HTTP://ariefolger.WordPress.com
Sent from my mobile device
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I asked about Rambam, Hilchos Teshuva 3:3, and R' Micha Berger responded:

> A step back to REED's notion of a nequdas habechirah. ...
> ...
> I therefore want to flip your first question on its head: It's
> not that a rasha's teshuvah would be ineffective; it's that a
> rasha is someone for whom it's impossible.

Beautiful! Thank you!

In light of your explanation, I'd like to offer the chevrah this expanded interpretation of that Rambam:

If a tzadik is found to be such a tzadik that even if he stumbles, his
teshuva will be instinctive and immediate, he is sealed for life on Rosh
Hashana. And if a rasha is found to be such a rasha that teshuva is not
even on his radar, neither today nor in the next ten days, then he is
sealed for death on Rosh Hashana. Everyone else, for whom teshuva is a real
possibility, but *only* a possibility, is left hanging until Yom Kippur: If
he did teshuva he is sealed for life, but if he squandered that
opportunity, he is sealed for death.

Akiva Miller


____________________________________________________________
The Amazing Skinny Fruit
How This Strange 62-Cent Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/505f2edddfdcc2edd4bcest03vuc

I have two comments. 
1) I would not be so quick to bury the idea of ?junk DNA.? There are
relevant scientists who are not buying into the conclusions of the ENCODE
study all be it, its appearance in respected journals with over 400
scientists involved. Only time will tell who is right, or if the truth (as
it often does) lies somewhere in between.

2) I would imagine if up to 20-80% (depending upon who you listen to) is
now significant and mostly involved in regulation, versus the 3-4% or so
that was deemed to be significant before the ENCODE project (genes coding
for proteins), then this should make for a major change in the SIGNIFICANT
mutation rate in the past. If most of the genome, including all the new
regulatory sections that were previously considered junk, now are
considered to have mutations that are significant, whereas in the past the
large majority of these mutations had no consequence as they only happened
in junk DNA that had no consequences, then the effective mutation rate will
be different than previously assumed. This could also lead to a theory for
a non-constant mutation rate (creatively assumed by some in the past)
depending on how much of the ?junk DNA? (using the old term) was present at
the era in question ie., the ratio of truly junk to the whole in any given
era.

Kol tuv

Chaim Manaster
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R' Meir Rabi wrote:

> Take heating water for the Rach HaNimol as an example. I am
> confident and have verified this with a few doctors here that
> hot water may have some benefits in promoting blood circulation
> and comforting the baby, but unless a medical reason is
> mandated by a doctor, we are not Mechallel Shabbos for this.

If you asked about *hot* water, then what you write seems reasonable to me.

But consider this: Perhaps the medical benefit is not from *hot* water, but
from *cooked* water. In other words, pasteurized, disinfected water.
Perhaps Chazal saw this benefit in hot water, and did not realize that the
benefit remains even after the water has cooled.

I, for one, would not want to wash a newborn with ordinary pre-modern era
water that even adults would not drink (preferring to drink wine or beer
instead). Perhaps leaving the newborn unwashed might be an option, but if
not, then cooking the water on Shabbos seems plausible (though of course
I'm not paskening).

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
The Amazing Skinny Fruit
How This Strange 62-Cent Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/505f2b4a8af472b4a7064st03vuc

In a message dated 9/23/2012 10:34:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mi...@aishdas.org writes:
 
On Sun,  Sep 23, 2012 at 06:36:00AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: R' Shimon told him  about his father's Tzava'ah. Whereupon the Chozeh
: told him that R'  Yisroel Leib was in the Olam Ha'Emes now and knew that
: the correct Nusach  was Nusach Sephard (which is used by most Chasidim)
: which includes that  phrase. Implying that he should start saying it.

Lo bashamayim hi would  imply that RYLH knowing what heaven thinks is more
correct doesn't mean he  knows what we should be doing.  No?

GCT!
-Micha

 
>>>>>
 
it is wrong to compare saying Kaddish in Nusach Sfard  (chassidish) with 
not saying Kaddish at all.
 
If a father asks his son not to say Kaddish, the son should disregard his  
father's wishes because now that his father is in the olam ha'emes, he 
surely  does wish his son to say Kaddish.  Obeying halacha is not something that 
is  "in Shamayim" -- it is here, we have been given the Torah.
 
As for obeying a father who wants a Litvishe rather than a chassidishe  
Kaddish, in that case the son should honor the father's wishes, because it  
doesn't matter which Kaddish is said as long as a Kaddish is said.  What  
matters in this case is honoring your father.
 
Chassidim would say about their nusach that now that the Arizal and the  
Baal Shem Tov have lived here on earth, nussach sfard is not bashamayim but 
down  here on earth.   They would say that we here on earth now know what is  
preferred in Heaven.
 
My own feeling is that as long as you are following your father's nusach or 
 your rebbe's nusach (not sure which trumps which), you are doing the right 
thing  and Litvishe, chassidishe, and Sephardi tefillos are all good.  
Yekkes'  tefillos are good, Hungarians' are good, Poilishe Jews' are good, 
Persian  Jews' and Yemenite Jews' tefillos are all good.  Mutual respect  is an 
aspect of "vehavta lerei'acha kamocha" and lo baShamayim hi.
 
 

--Toby Katz
GCT
=============



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A  question geared more towards the charedi elements on the list.

Everyone seems to agree that women are obligated in birkhat hagomel equally
with men.
In particularly a woman after childbirth should recite birkhat hagomel.
In the past this created a problem as woman rarely went into public areas
and birkhat hagomel
requires a minyan. Also in the past the mothers were still in the hospital
at the time of the brit milah.
A number of suggestions were made to deal with this issue

1) MB says that a woman can recite birkhat hagomel in front of 10other
women. To the best ofmy limited knowledge this was never accepted
2) The husband said the bracha for his wife.Many objected because it is the
woman's obligation.
3) The woman said birkhat hagomel from the women's section
4) Women in practice never said birkhat hagomel.

In my personal experience in my youth option #4 was the standard.
Today in most MO circles option #3 or a similar one where the woman says
birkhat hagomel at some gathering at home where there is a minyan.
This is based on the fact that in fact in todays MO circles women
frequently come to shul all year round and also men and women mix up
at get togethers.

Question:What is the current practice in charedi circles? Especially in
some chassidic circles women still do not usually come to shul and
do not mix with men at parties.

ps
I recently spent 2 shabbatot in Ichilov hospital in Tel Aviv. There seemed
to be numerous Gerrer chassidim at the minyan (hopefully for birth of
children).
Each times some women recited birkhat hagomel. Because of the mechitza I
could not tell if these were MO women or Gerrer chassidim women.



-- 
Eli Turkel
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RYBS points out that selichot stress the unworthiness of man while piyut
stresses the grandeur on man.
On YK both these elements are displayed. However, RYBS states that on kol
nidre night the emphasis is on selichot and not piyut.
One example he brings is " ke-hinei ke-chomer beyad hatozer" . The idea is
that G-d fashions everything and we are just the object
of G-d's maniuplations.

Nevertheless, in all the shuls I have attended this is sung with a happy
tune which seems to be the opposite of the intent of the selicha
that we are lowly beings.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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actually the reason of the Sha"ch  (YD 364, 11 ) is" ?????? ???? ?????? ???"
lehaalot chaima velinkom nakam.

> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, <T6...@aol.com 
> <mailto:T6...@aol.com>> wrote:
>
>      
>     The request to be buried in concentration camp clothes strikes me
>     as akin to the common minhag of burying murder victims who were
>     killed because they were Jews in the bloody clothes they were
>     wearing when they died.  These clothes are said to arouse Heavenly
>     compassion.
>
>

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On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 03:26:00AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote to Areivim
[and I'm filling out the quote, here]:
> From http://tinyurl.com/9zxthee

"The article on Rav Dr. Joseph Breuer, [HaR' Levi Yosef Beuer zt"l],
that we have been writing about in recent postings, by Rabbi Yaakov Loch
[shlit"a], also discusses his derech haLimud. Here are some excerpts
from pages 41-42 to give you an idea of how Rav Breuer learned gemara
and other parts of [TSBP]."

> "Rav [Yosef] Breuer followed the derech halimud of his father, Rav
> Shlomo Breuer, who had been a close talmid of the Ksav Sofer.... Rav
> Shlomo Breuer belonged to the school of the Chasam Sofer in his derech
> halimud... striving primarily to understand thoroughly the text at
> hand.... learned with his talmidim only 'on the daf'. Never did the Gaon
> come with prepared solutions to the gemara. He never discussed only
> those parts of the daf where he had something to be mechadesh.... he
> strove for clarity in the pshat of the Gemara... He would never turn to
> the other Rishonim until Rashi and Tosafos were clear: in particular,
> he would get annoyed if one went right away to the Rambam... he eschewed
> any attempt at pilpul, and stressed the careful understanding of an
> inyan rather than hasty coverage of subject matter.

"In recent times some have replaced the above with different
approaches. But the old way still has much going for it, even without
invoking tradition, even if it seems simple and modest and lacking
the fireworks and pizzazz of some newer approaches. If more people
today would follow such a derech, we would be the better for it, as a
people. [KNLAD]."

I think that what R/D JB called "fireworks and pizzazz" R' Chaim
Brisker would have called raising the gemara to the level of rigor
and intellectual excitement that would otherwise attract bachurim
to the universities.


We discussed the curriculum submitted by Volozhin to the gov't
in 1851. My translation of R' Dr Shaul Shtampfer's Hebrew is at
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2012/05/the-curriculum-at-volozhin.shtml>.

I noted that they showed much more interest in beqi'us than we do today.
All of Tanakh in 2 years, 5/6 of the Mishnah, 10 mesechtos gemara, and 3/4
of the SA. And the gemara was learned with Rashi and Rosh, implying a
focus on peshat and deriving halakhah lemaaseh.


R' AE Kaplan outlined a derekh halimmud to be utilized at Hildesheimer's,
but the RBSO took him before he could implement it. He said it was deeply
influenced by R' Dovid Zvi Hoffman (the Melamid leHo'il), his predecessor
as RY at the seminary. RAEK himself was a product of Slabodka, who started
out in Telzh. RAEK Sr was niftar before RAEK was born, which is how they
share the same name. The man RAEK called "der tatte", his step-father,
was a Telzher, and his wife was raised by Telzhers as well. So it's an
interesting mix of influences that would shape his derekh halimud.

According to according to the ArtScroll book on R' Yaakov Kamenecki (pg
85), RYK said that had RAEK lived longer, the endire derekh halimud in
all the Lithuanian yeshivos would have been restructured to follow him.

Apparently HQBH wanted the rise of Brisk.

Here's RYGB's description (from <http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/raek.htm>):
    Already in 1919 Reb Avraham Elya began pondering the derech halimud
    of Lithuanian yeshivos. He felt it was necessary to put more stress
    and expand upon the particular approach developed by the Vilna
    Gaon zt"l (B'Ikvos HaYir'ah, p. 21) and Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik of
    Brisk. The underlying principle of this approach - the systematic
    application of which was to be his life's great unfinished work -
    was simple: a return to the derech of the Rishonim, from pilpul back
    to understanding (ibid., p. 163). In Reb Avraham Elya's opinion, the
    return to the Rishonim's approach began with the Gaon's, and, to a
    greater extent, Reb Chaim's emphasis on substance and understanding
    over structure and creativity. The trend among Acharonim until Reb
    Chaim's time was to resolve questions by answering them. This could
    be done essentially in one of two ways. One way is the refutation
    of the question's premise and the presentation of an alternate
    premise. The other method entailed the creation of an elaborate series
    of additional premises ("hakdamos") - not necessarily alluded to in
    the actual sugya - which would limit the application of the question's
    premise. Reb Chaim, on the other hand, did not answer questions. He
    would, rather, define the elements of a sugya conceptually, with
    such clarity and accuracy that any questions were automatically
    resolved (Divrei Talmud, vol. 1, pp. 23-24, and p. 42). Reb Avraham
    Elya proposed the systematic application of this approach to all
    of Shas. In and of itself, such a work would have been a milestone
    in the history of Talmudic commentary. Reb Avraham Elya, however,
    envisioned a much farther reaching accomplishment. Reb Avraham Elya
    set out to combine the lomdus of Eastern Europe with the scholarship
    of Western Europe. [24] He identified eleven areas of interpretation,
    explanation, and conclusion that were to be incorporated in the
    new commentary. Indeed, it is in his essay: "On the Compilation of
    a Commentary to Talmud Bavli, its Necessity and Approach" and the
    addenda to this essay, [25] that Reb Avraham Elya's extraordinary genius
    and scope is most clearly manifest. In brief, the eleven areas are:

    1) Issues not completely clarified in earlier commentaries (Reb
    Avraham Elya brilliantly leads us through an example of such an issue:
    the definition of amud hashachar [26]).

    2) Corruptions in the texts of the Rishonim.

    3) Explanations that are found in one sugya, but not in a parallel
    one.

    4) Crystallization of underlying principles.

    5) Exposure of previously unknown or little known explanations found
    in the Rishonim.

    6) Comparison and contrast of Talmudic sugyos with parallel sugyos
    in the Midrashei Halacha, Tosefta, Talmud Yerushalmi and Agada.

    7) Full and deep understanding of each sugya (here Reb Avraham Elya
    notes that the capacity to engage in this pursuit was enhanced by the
    tools introduced by Reb Chaim. He notes, however, the importance of
    reaching equal depths in the understanding of Agada, and notes his
    intention to follow in the footsteps of the Maharal in this regard).

    8) Following each sugya through to its Halachic conclusions. [27]

    9) Introduction of possible textual emendations from alternate
    girsa'os.

    10) Translations of obscure words (not necessarily foreign ones, as he
    demonstrates with an eye opening analysis of the simple word "midda").

    11) Dikduk and keria (for example, he notes, how many Talmidei
    Chachamim are aware that it is possible that the correct pronunciation
    is "kol vachomer?").

    --

    [24] He stresses several times, however, that his spirit was far
    closer to the lomdus of the East than to the scholarship of the
    West. See B'Ikvos HaYir'ah, p. 67 and pp. 208-209.

    [25] Divrei Talmud, pp. 9-88. The addenda were compiled by Rabbi Tzvi
    Kaplan from the notes his father left, and they are attempts to apply
    the principles defined in the essay to specific sugyos. The Commentary
    on the beginning of Masseches Kiddushin is particularly impressive.

    [26] R. Pinchas Kehati zt"l quotes the Divrei Talmud in his Mishnayos
    Mevu'aros commentary on the first mishna in Masseches Berachos.

    [27] Such a project had already been proposed, as Reb Avraham Elya
    notes, by Rav Kook, and the Gemaros in the Halacha Berura series and
    Rabbi Yitzchak Arieli zt"l's Eynayim LaMishpat represent efforts in
    this areas.

And his own description is at <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/38099>. But
it was converted by a R' Eliyahu Soloveichik and R' Yoel "haQatan"
(Klein?) into text, word format, in 2003. See
<http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/beyt/16.doc>.


BTW, anyone want to collate an organized index to the VIDC posts of 2004?

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 30, Issue 133
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