Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 149

Mon, 05 Nov 2012

• 1. Re: Chiddush of Yaval (Micha Berger)
• 2. eivah (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: eivah (David Cohen)
• 4. Re: eivah (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: eivah (Lisa Liel)
• 6. Re: Chiddush of Yaval (Lisa Liel)
• 7. Re: pronouncing shem hashem (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: What is Se'or? (Micha Berger)
• 9. What did Avraham hope to accomplish by arguing with Hashem about Sdom? (Marty Bluke)
• 10. Who Else Should the Victims of Hurricane Sandy be Thanking? (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Corrected - Who Else Should the Victims of Hurricane Sandy be Thanking? (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Teaching Emunah to the Next Generation (Prof. Levine)
• 13. eivah (Marty Bluke)
• 14. Re: eivah (Micha Berger)

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 10:39:01AM +0200, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: The Chumash says that Yaval was "Avi Yoshev Ohel u'Mikneh", which Rashi
: explains to be the first one to shepherd cattle and take them from place to
: place (here for a month, there for a month) to graze.
: 
: But Hevel was a shepherd before Yaval, so what was Yaval's chiddush?

I think that's in the pasuq. Rashi appears to emphasize the "ohel" aspect.
Shepherds tend to be nomadic. Yaval the cow-herd was "yoshev ohel".

Qayin, the farmer, makes the first city (I assume it's first), Chanokh
(kesheim beno). Which makes sense, since Hevel his foil chose a nomadic
profession. Notice how Yaval, his brother Yuval, his half-brother
Tuval-Qayin all carry the shoresh of Hevel's name in theirs. And they're
the next people credited with inventing key parts of civiliation: Yaval
is a dairy farmer (meat wasn't mutar to humans yet, so I assume it's
dairy cows), Yuval invents musical instruments (and in fact the first
mention of the arts altogether), and Tuval-Qayin is the first metalworker.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke

<<It depends.  How committed are you to doing what Hashem commands, as
opposed to what you feel obligated to do on a personal level?  I think
that in our society, saying "Oops, sorry" would be considered appalling
and immoral.  But if Hashem actually forbade us to violate Shabbat in
order to preserve the life of a non-Jew, what *halakhic* justification
could there be for violating that?>>

In theory Lisa is right, However, in real life I feel 99% would react
differently.
Let me present several hypothetical situations (in practice there may be
heterim this not psak it is a theoretical question

1) Your child suffers an injury on shabbat that if not treated he will lose
a limb or perhaps be blind but not death threatening.
How many would not be mechallel shabbat for the child

2) Your house with all your possessions is burning on shabbat but not
threatening any other house - do you put out the flames

3) According to the psakim I have seen you cannot make a city eruv in a
city with a foreign embassy since no city authority
has the permission to tell the embassy anything - does one carry on shabbat?

4) To my personal mind the heter iska in modern banks especially for
nonbusiness loans is on shaky grounds.
Nevertheless almost everyone uses it (automatically if ones account goes
into minus)

5) Chadash outside of EY - is mostly ignored (at least until very recently)
even though the overwhelming opinion of
poskim is that it is prohibited.

6) Reading historical records there were places and times were few men wore
tefillin
Growing up in NYC almost no one slept in the succah - IMHO most of the
heterim are far fetch. In fact many poskim
state explicitly that there is little room for leniency but since it is the
overwhelming minhag they need some
justification

7) More direct to the question - how many of us would go into battle
against Amalek and kill small children.
Very few of us would commit an act that goes against our basic moral
compass even when it involves a Torah halacha

Note this can go in both directions. In the crusades many families
committed suicide or even killed their own children rather
than allowing them to fall into the hands of the crusaders. Girls threw
themselves overboard rather being violated.
Some rishonim try and justify these actions - Rambam and many others
clearly outlaw it.

How G-d would judge that I leave to G-d

I am sure I could come up with many other examples where the halacha is
(almost) clear and frequently a Torah prohibition but in practice it was
ignored at least in many places and times

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Perhaps we are concerned for "eivah" not just because it may come back to
hurt Jews later, but because prevention of eivah is *inherently* a supreme
value in its own right, independent of whether it has the potential to
result in anybody getting hurt.

In R' Eli Turkel's "desert island" example, it is not hard to imagine what
thoughts the NJ, in the minutes before his death, is having about Jews and
about Hashem and His Torah.  Although our refusing to save him would result
in him taking these unfortunate thoughts to the grave without there ever
being an opportunity for him (or anyone else) to act on them, perhaps the
thoughts themselves are the "eivah" that we are permitted to do melacha in
order to prevent.

To support this understanding of eivah, see Kiddushin 63a  -- R' Yehudha
haNasi says a man shouldn't be mekadesh a woman effective as of the future
death of her husband or sister because of eivah.  In many cases, the man
might not even know this woman's husband or sister at all, so unless we are
concerned about the effects of tefilos, there is no concern that the
souring of the (nonexistent) relationship between this man and the husband
or sister of the woman in question would have any earthly effect on any of
them.  Presumably, we are not concerned about his trying to actively hasten
their deaths in order to claim his new wife.  It sounds like the chachamim
 just made the gezeira because they didn't want the awkward situation of
one Jew having the *thought* that he hopes another Jew dies soon so that he
can benefit.

(The extrapolation to our case is that eivah can be a negative thought, not
just a danger of physical harm.)

-- D.C.
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On Thu, Nov 01, 2012 at 10:46:27PM +0200, David Cohen wrote:
: Perhaps we are concerned for "eivah" not just because it may come back to
: hurt Jews later, but because prevention of eivah is *inherently* a supreme
: value in its own right, independent of whether it has the potential to
: result in anybody getting hurt.

In more than one prior iteration on this topic, RnCL posted sources that
buttress this point. In one (Apr 2006) she notes:

> Note that the Encylopedia Talmudit lists under the heading eivah four
> sections entitled:

> a) between husband and wife;
> b) between father and son;
> c) between adam l'chavero;
> d) between yisroel and non Jew.

My own thought:
In order to believe that (d) is an indirect form of piquach nefesh,
one has to believe that it's a different definition of the same rabbinic
idiom as the other three uses.

Simpler would be to assume that just as we want shalom bayis and
hashavas leiv avos al banim veleiv banim al avosam, as well as peace
among shecheinim, we value a lack of hostility between Yehudi and nakhri.
As the inherent value of peace in its own right. Veyei'asu kulam agudah
achas la'asos Retzonekha beleivav shaleim!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

No question.  I don't deny that most Orthodox Jews would do what they 
needed to and just accept the price of the transgression.  Maybe that 
speaks to a weakness in our hashkafa nowadays.  Or our emunah.  And it 
isn't only Shabbat.

But I don't think that our weakness should lead us to try and claim that 
doing those things is *right*.  It feels a lot better to justify 
ourselves, but it's more honest to say, "I did what I had to, but I know 
it was wrong.  I didn't have it in me to find a different way."

Lisa


On 11/1/2012 3:30 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> <<It depends.  How committed are you to doing what Hashem commands, as
> opposed to what you feel obligated to do on a personal level?  I think
> that in our society, saying "Oops, sorry" would be considered appalling
> and immoral.  But if Hashem actually forbade us to violate Shabbat in
> order to preserve the life of a non-Jew, what *halakhic* justification
> could there be for violating that?>>
>
> In theory Lisa is right, However, in real life I feel 99% would react 
> differently.
> Let me present several hypothetical situations (in practice there may 
> be heterim this not psak it is a theoretical question

<snip>

> I am sure I could come up with many other examples where the halacha 
> is (almost) clear and frequently a Torah prohibition but in practice 
> it was ignored at least in many places and times
>
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It's interesting that archaeology claims the oldest known city to have 
been Eridu.  Chanoch's son was Irad, so Chanoch might have named a city 
after his son just as his father had done for him..  And whatever the 
linguistic antecedents of the Romans, they named their god of 
metalworking Vulcan, which is phonetically very similar to Tuvalcain.

Lisa

On 11/1/2012 3:09 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Qayin, the farmer, makes the first city (I assume it's first), Chanokh
> (kesheim beno). Which makes sense, since Hevel his foil chose a nomadic
> profession. Notice how Yaval, his brother Yuval, his half-brother
> Tuval-Qayin all carry the shoresh of Hevel's name in theirs. And they're
> the next people credited with inventing key parts of civiliation: Yaval
> is a dairy farmer (meat wasn't mutar to humans yet, so I assume it's
> dairy cows), Yuval invents musical instruments (and in fact the first
> mention of the arts altogether), and Tuval-Qayin is the first metalworker.
>    
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On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 12:33:24PM -0400, h Lampel wrote:
> Thirty years ago Yehoshua Bressler published a booklet on the  
> pronunciation of Hebrew, based upon Torah sources. He points out that  
> Rabbeynu Yehuda HaLevy in the the Kuzari (2:80), dealing with that  
> subject, groups together the kametz [''gadol''], cholom, and shuruk as  
> sounds respectively formed by the lips closing in closerand closer.  
> This, YB points out, makes the cholom neither an "oy" sound nor a long  
> "a" sound (both which involve the sides of the tongue).

There is an elaborate argument at
http://opensiddur.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Sid
dur-Bnei-Ashkenaz-v.1.12.2.pdf#page=51
(I love that ".pdf#page=51" trick.) Or http://j.mp/KOgpm8

Which I recently mentioned at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol30/v30n137.shtml#05>, where I closed:
: In any case, if you want to use sevara to trump minhag avos, then you need
: to use an Israeli or Sepharadic cholam rather than any of these dipthongs.
: I just noted, though, that RAYK holds that minhag avos wins out in issues
: of havarah.

And yet the "cheilam" (with a long /A/ sound) is found in both Litta
and some parts of Teiman.

Although it is likely the Litvish version should be a German "oe", which
is somewhere between long /A/ (bait) and long /U/ (boot), and thus could
be closed with either.

Besides, how do you pronounce "hee" when spelled hei-vav-alef? Differently
than "hee" hei-yud-alef? Doesn't that chiriq prove that kesiv malei need
not correspond to where the vowel is formed? (Alternatively, maybe a
chiriq malaei isn't a long /E/...)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Menachem Zupnik suggested that anything that is merely ra'ui
la'akhilas kelev can stilll be used as starter and therefore qualifies
under machmetzes. Chameitz is a subset of okhel, so it needs to be ra'ui
la'akhilah by people (or akhshevei). But sourdough is machmetzes, which
is why it needn't be ra'ui la'akhilah.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

If Reuven tells Shimon he is going to do something and Shimon thinks that
Reuven is making a mistake, he will try to persuade him with logical and
emotional arguments not to do it. That is what it sounds like Avraham Avinu
is trying to do with Hashem when Hashem tells him that he is going to
destroy Sdom and Avraham tries to convince Hashem not to destroy Sdom.
However, Hashem is not a person who can be convinced. Hashem is perfect and
omniscient and therefore by definition you can't change Hashem's mind and
you are not going to raise an argument that he hasn't already considered
and rejected. Given the above, what was Avraham Avinu trying to accomplish
with his back and forth with Hashem?

In truth, this is really the age old question about tefila, if Hashem is
omniscient and perfect what is the point of davening? Hashem knows exactly
what we need/want and we can't, so to  speak convince him to change his
mind. One answer given by a number of rishonim and acharonim is that tefila
is for us, it makes us better people, changes us, makes us into a new
person. Therefore, whatever din we had was on the old person but the new
you now gets a new din which hopefully is better. However, this doesn't
explain why Avraham Avinu would have an argument with Hashem and try to
convince him to change his mind using logical arguments (the same applies
to Moshe Rabenu when he tells Hashem, what will the Egyptians think if they
hear that Bnei Yisrael were destroyed in the Midbar).
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RSRH points out that there are no such things as accidents.  There 
are "unexpected events"  but nothing is accidental,  since HaShem 
controls the world. Thus, there must be some reason or reasons why 
Hurricane Sandy occured during the week of Parsha Lech Lecha.  I do 
not presume to know the reason or reasons,  but I do think that the 
following is worth noting.

The hurricane has led to an unprecedented amount of Chesed on the 
part of Jews and non-Jews.  Many volunteers actually risked their 
lives to help rescue those who have suffered and continued to suffer 
both during and in the aftermath of the hurricane.

We should pause for a moment and ask, "Where did the world learn to 
do chesed?"   The answer is, of course,  from Avraham and his 
descendents.  Rabbi Dr. Yosef Breuer points out in Volume I of his 
Introduction to Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch's Commentary on the Torah 
(available for free download at 
http://download.hebrewbooks.org/downloadhandler.ashx?req=4105 )

A. [Avraham] sees the wanderers, rushes towards them, letting G'd
quasi wait for him, asking Him (3) not to withdraw from
him-for, say the Sages, to receive wanderers hospitably is
a far greater duty than to "receive Gd's Shechina". Thus
A. practices Jewish brotherhood on "uncircumcised" idolators.
And how he practices it! No one would so hotly
pursue profit as A. seeks an occasion to demonstrate brotherly
love to his fellow-men! His entire household is set into
motion, wife and child, everything is made ready as A.
seizes the first chance to practice brotherly love as a Jew.
For as a Jew he was called upon to bring to men-in the
name of G'd-the message of brotherly love. This spirit
of love and of charity can be found in his late descendants and
it is due to this "Abramitic" heritage that this "humane"
spirit has taken root in the non-Jewish world and
has become a "blessing' to all mankind.

Thus all of those who have received aid and continue to receive 
assistance should not only be thanking those who have brought them 
assistance,  but they should be thanking the Jewish people for having 
taught the world to do acts of chesed.

I have put all of the commentary on Lech Lecha at http://tinyurl.com/cjoljmo

See also the article by Rabbi Berel Wein at http://tinyurl.com/cfn8b7y


Yitzchok Levine 
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In my first post on this topic I wrote that Hurricane Sandy occured 
during the week of Parshas Lech Lecha.   This is incorrect.  I should 
have and meant to write that it occurred occured during the week of 
Parshas *Vayeira*.

The selection from Volume I of Rav Breuer's Introduction to Rabbi 
Samson Raphael Hirsch's Commentary on the Torah that I posted in my 
earlier email as well what I put at http://tinyurl.com/cjoljmo  is 
from Parshas Vayeira.

Sorry for this error.

YL

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Teaching Emunah to the Next Generation  Torah Umesorah May 2008

A passionate presentation by Rabbi Dovid Sapirman demonstrating the 
urgent need to proactively instill the ikrei emunah in our children.

This talk can be listened to at http://tinyurl.com/bhfnefe

YL
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R' Eli Turkel asks:
<You are alone on an island with only on other goy. On friday he saves your
life but on shabbat now his life is in danger Do you tell him thanks for
<saving my life yesterday but I am not allowed to save your life today
especially since no else will know

This discussion sounds very similar to the discussion (I believe between R'
Lichtenstein and R' Amital) about cannibalism vs eating treif food on a
desert island. Human flesh is only an issur d'rabbanan but is disgusting
and simply not accepted among civilized people while a non-kosher animal
(or nevela) is an issur d'oraysa but doesn't have that level of disgust.
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On Mon, Nov 05, 2012 at 04:54:52PM +0200, Marty Bluke (the other RMB) wrote:
: This discussion sounds very similar to the discussion (I believe between R'
: Lichtenstein and R' Amital) about cannibalism vs eating treif food on a
: desert island. Human flesh is only an issur d'rabbanan but is disgusting
: and simply not accepted among civilized people while a non-kosher animal
: (or nevela) is an issur d'oraysa but doesn't have that level of disgust.

Which RYAmital concluded by saying that both of them would choose the
pork. The difference is (in his opinion -- he said explicitly he didn't
check with his co-RY) that RALichtenstein would feel pangs of conscience
afterward for violating halakhah, whereas he (RYA) would not.

(Ad kan summarizing from a Virtual Beis Medrash "Sichot of the Rashei
Yeshiva" email.)

This gets to this issue of how one views suprahalachic ethics.
Bal teshaqtzu, qedoshim tihyu, ve'asisa hayashar vehatov and the like
presume that such an ethical system exists, and provide a halachic
obligation to follow it. But can we say it trumps black-letter din?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht


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