Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 155

Wed, 14 Nov 2012

• 1. Fwd: eivah (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Teaching Emunah to the Next Generation (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: torah and science (Micha Berger)
• 4. R' Hirsch: Chinuch lessons from Yaakov and Esav (Prof. Levine)
• 5. MidVar Sheker TirChak; Was Deceiving Yitzchak Permitted? (Meir Rabi)
• 6. Re: HONORING SHABBOS LUNCH and the New Religion (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Who decrees? (David Riceman)
• 8. women masgichot (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: HONORING SHABBOS LUNCH and the New Religion (Ben Waxman)
• 10. A Store is having a Sale (Akiva Miller)
• 11. Re: BELIEF (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Brain, the Seat of The Soul? What is the Soul? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: HONORING SHABBOS LUNCH and the New Religion (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 14. corkinet (Ben Waxman)
• 15. Re: corkinet (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: corkinet (Lisa Liel)
• 17. Re: corkinet (Ben Waxman)
• 18. how old was rivka (saul newman)

<<Remember Yovah

From such a terse response, I can't tell whether RET is supporting the idea
of removing nevuah from this discussion, or whether he's citing an example
which shows that it should remain *in* the discussion, so I'll offer my
ideas...

But this question has already been asked and answered. Yonah did receive a
DCFG, and he did apply his personal senses to it, and he did conclude that
the "right thing to do" was to evade/avoid the DCFG.

And he was wrong.>>

Apologies for the terseness
what I meant is the meforshim try and "justify" Yonah by saying that he ran
away from a direct commend of Hashem in order to protect the Jewish people
(ie the goyim do more teshuva than the Jews).

Thus he may have been wrong but he is defended as having his heart if the
right place. He is certainly not pictured as a rasha.
There is a prohibition for a navi to conceal (kovesh) his prophecy.
Nevertheless Yonah is given a second chance.
Perhaps Yonah was using the rationale of RAL. He prefered to do a sin by
disregarding his nevuah in order to save the Jewish people from G-d's wrath
but he would do teshuva later

BTW it is far from clear what the message of the sefer of Yonah is. I have
heard many (YK) derashot with different views on what the sefer is teaching.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 11:12:48AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> There is another videos of a talk on this topic that was given at the  
> 2011 Torah U Mesorah Convention given by Rabbi Pinchos Jung.  It is at 
> http://chinuch.org/av_library.php?id=420  One has to log on to the web 
> site http://chinuch.org/   to see this video. One can sign up for the 
> site at no cost.  There is a lot of interesting material on this site.
>
> Rabbi Jung mentions at the beginning about changes that need to be made 
> in the yeshiva curriculum for boys.

There was also an issue of the Orthodox Forum dedicated to the topic
of Yir'as Shamayim.
http://www.yutorah.org/publications/?publicationid=206&;publicationvolumeid=20060

Included is an article by R' Mark Gottlieb (who at the time was heading
YU's MTA HS for boys):
    "The Beginning of Wisdom:" Towards a Curriculum of Yirat Shamayim
    in Modern Orthodox High Schools
    http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/728742

as well as an article by Dr Erica Brown:
    What Are We Afraid of? Fear and Its Role in Jewish Adult Education
    http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/728736

Last, R' Moshe Lichtenstein and R' Nathaniel Helfgot have articles about
teaching Tanakh in ways that focus on yir'ay.

But if you're interested in Yir'as Shamayim, you probably want to see
a number of the other articles.

Personally, I was intrigued by R' Elyakim Krumbein's analysis of Nefesh
haChaim and how ambiguity in its message probably drove the yeshiva
vs mussar split. I heavily used the articles by R' Sholom Carmy and R'
Aharon Lichtenstein when preparing for a recent talk.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The greatest discovery of all time is that
mi...@aishdas.org        a person can change their future
http://www.aishdas.org   by merely changing their attitude.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Oprah Winfrey

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 06:29:33PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> What changed the halakhah is the change in
:> neonatal medicine and care, not the science. What makes halakhah is
:> whether such babies can be saved in the present, not theories about why
:> they couldn't in the past.
: 
: The way I always understood it is that according to Chazal there are viable
: 7 month fetuses and viable 9 month fetuses and they are 2 distinct classes.
: Since a 8 month old fetus dont fit into either class they cant be saved on
: shabbat.

I was speaking lemaaseh. The only thing that changed is that we no longer
assume 8th month babies aren't viable. The fact that they used to think
7th month babies were more likely to be viable than we do doesn't end
up changing halakhah. We used to violate Shabbos to save them, and we
still violate Shabbos to save them. (For that matter, my triplets know
first-hand that even 6 month babies now have a likelihood of being viable
and healthy.) It's only how we treat 8th month deliveries that changed.

And that's due to better neonatal care available to those 8th monthers
(and earlier), not due to outdated theories about some babies having a
7 month term.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

At 12:34 PM 11/12/2012, Mary Bluke wrote:


>  The following is from RSRH's essay "Lessons From Jacob and Esau" that
>appears on pages 319 - 331 of his Collected Writing VII. It is amazing how
>his words below are so relevant to our generation. There is no question
>that R' Hirsch could be speaking about the current Charedi educational
>system. It is a terrible shame that his approach has basically died out as
>it is so needed in our modern world.

Personally I find virtually all of RSRH's writings relevant to our 
generation and wish that more people would spend time reading and 
studying.  If you want to gain insight into the "events"  that occur 
during the Jewish months,  then read his essays on each month that 
are in Volumes I and II of the Collected Writings of RSRH.  If you 
want striking insights into Chumash,  then read his commentary on the 
Torah, etc.

An entire volume of the Collected Writings (Volume VII)  is devoted 
to education.

The entire essay Lessons from Yaakov and Esau can be read at

<http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/lessons_jacob_esau_col_vii.p
df>Lessons 
 From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII)

YL
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Yakov acted with too much enthusiasm, with too much pleasure, when denying
his brother Esav even the consideration of an opportunity to initiate
change for the better. For this Yakov was punished. [Rashi 32:23]

There was a little more [or less] than altruism in the rivalry between the
twins, Yakov and Esav.

No balanced person, and certainly neither Yakov nor Rivkah, considered for
even a single moment that Yitzchak's blessings, conferred in error upon a
thoroughly undeserving first-born son, could or would compel Gd to favour
someone as evil as Esav.

Perhaps, the energy and enthusiasm in manipulating Yitzchak was also driven
by this less than altruistic rivalry between the twins.

Even suggesting that concern for Yitzchak, who would be crushed upon
eventually discovering that he had blessed an ugly brute, does not permit
this type of deception. See Talmud Shavuos 30a -which explains, MidVar
Sheker TirChak [keep well away from deception] that even for true and noble
ends we may not foster misrepresentation.

Man's actions and thoughts are always suspect.


Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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Prof. Levine quoted a weekly bulletin:

> Once upon a time this was accomplished through the incomparable
> lunchtime cholent , but evidently a new religion has arisen
> that closely resembles Judaism that includes a ritual called
> "Friday night Cholent". Back to the drawing board!

If having additional cholent the night before makes a "new religion", then
what about those who do additional hakafos on the day before Simchas Torah
(as do many Chassidim), or those who do additional hakafos on the day
*after* Simchas Torah (as many places in Israel)? Are those new religions
as well?

I don't necessarily support these innovations, but I do have a question for
those who are vehemently against them: Where is the cutoff? How recent does
a new minhag need to be to earn your ire?

There was once a time when even hakafos *ON* Simchas Torah was an innovation, and (compared to some other minhagim) it really was not all that long ago!

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

Often, when a mishna or beraisa says Rabbi A oser and Rabbi B matir, the 
gemara explains Rabbi A sover gazrinan X atu Y and Rabbi B sover lo 
gazrinan, or, alternatively, Rabbi A gazar X atu Y, and Rabbi B lo gazar.

Let's consider the former formula first.  I reject the explanation that 
it was the Sanhedrin who decreed, since (a) I don't understand how 
record keeping could be that bad, and (b) this would be a machlokes 
about metzius.

But then who are the we who made this decree? Perhaps the second formula 
sheds some light on this.  As far as I know an individual Rabbi has no 
authority to make a gezeirah, so I construe the latter formula to mean 
Rabbi A ubeis dino.  But then the authority of the edict stems from the 
authority of a local beis din, and should not have authority elsewhere.  
Yet we find the rishonim take these arguments to be arguments about 
normative halacha, not descriptions of varying local customs.

So I'm mystified.  Who did the decreeing, how could there have been an 
argument about what they decreed, and why should their decrees affect me 
in New Jersey?

David Riceman

Some newspapers have reported that the Israeli rabbanut is refraining from
appointing women as masgichot because of Tznuit (whatever that means in
this context)

However RMF has 2 lengthy teshuvot YD(2) 44&45 sabout appointing women as a
masgiach.
He deals with the issue of the trustworthiness of women since MA (437:8)
implies that women are believed in kashrut only in their own home but if
they are sent elsewhere they are not believed.
He also discusses the Rambam that a woman cannot be appointed to a job of
"serarah". In the RMF solves both problems and allows a woman to be a
masgiach as long as there are no problems of yichud.

It seems it never occurred to RMF that there was a problem of tzniut as he
doesnt even raise that issue.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Hakafot shiniot have been around for a while (several hundred years), at 
least for the kabbalists.

But I agree with your general point. Yahadut didn't stop developing with 
Minhag Germaniya.

Ben

On 11/13/2012 5:14 AM, Akiva Miller wrote:
> If having additional cholent the night before makes a "new religion", 
> then what about those who do additional hakafos on the day before 
> Simchas Torah (as do many Chassidim), or those who do additional 
> hakafos on the day *after* Simchas Torah (as many places in Israel)? 
> Are those new religions as well?

In the thread "eivah", R' Eli Turkel mentioned:

> I once heard from Rav Zilberstein that if one knows that a
> store is having a sale on an item that it is forbidden to
> tell a friend since you are favoring the friend over other
> businessmen which you have no right to do (except for an
> immediate relative)

I'm interested in learning more about this. I do understand that in such a situation, the person would be "favoring the friend over other businessmen".

My first question is: what is wrong with favoring the friend. I concede
that to remain silent is a "shev v'al taaseh", and would therefore NOT
constitute favoring the stores which are charging more. But still, what's
wrong with favoring the friend?

Second: One would not be merely favoring the friend. He would also be
favoring the businessman who is running the sale. This strengthens the
argument in favor of telling the friend, because there are now two who
would benefit.

Third: Why would Rav Zilberstein allow an exception for "an immediate
relative", but not for a distant relative or a friend? The expensive stores
would be hurt to an equal degree regardless of whether the relative I tell
is close or distant, so it seems to me that his logic must be following
some rules which are not at all obvious to me. I wonder what they are.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 57 But Looks 27
Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50a2bc991d65d3c980563st02vuc

On Wed, Nov 07, 2012 at 9:30pm GMT, Akiva Miller wrote:
: Granted that it is foolish to sit down at the table and expect matzah
: to appear magically without personal preparation of some sort. But if one
: does have the wherewithal, he can practically guarantee that he'll be able
: to either purchase the matzah or bake it himself...

: No such guarantees exist for the one who is trying to believe. There
are ways of acquiring faith, but they are not guaranteed...

They are equally guaranteed -- as you put it, if one has the wherewithall.
The difference is that WRT matzah, the wherewithall is access to physical
resources, and WRT emunah, it's access to sufficient justification.

: Or maybe not. This is not the only mitzvah where our emotions are
: commanded. Others include: V'samachta b'chagecha. V'ahavta l'rayacha. Or,
: for that matter, V'ahavta Es HaShem Elokecha. What if I simply don't
: feel that way? How can I force myself to feel a certain way? Is belief
: really any different than those?

I'm convinced that in all these cases, the Rambam happens to rule that
the obligation to is do things that lead to that mental state.

Eg Yesodei haTorah 1:2 defines the mitzvos of ahavas H' and yir'as
Shamayim. Vehei'akh hi haderekh le'ahavaso ulyir'aso? Besha'ah
sheyisbonein ha'adam bema'asav... veyir'eh meihem chokhmaso..."

Hil' Teshuvah famously opens by saying that there is a mitzvah to do vidui
when doing teshuvah. The mental state itself is not described as the
mitzvah, vekhulu.

I am still bothered by the circular logic in saying that Hashem commanded
us to believe that He Exists. You have to believe before you even get to
"He commanded".


On Wed, Nov 07, 2012 at 4:34pm CST, Lisa Liel wrote:
> You can do the same thing with God.  Even if you can't wrap your mind  
> around God (as if anyone can), and even if it strains your credulity,  
> you can still say, "I'm going to assume, even though it's not proven,  
> that God exists and gave us the Torah and all that."  And you can act on  
> that premise.

> I don't think Hashem requires more of us in terms of yediah than that.   
> I don't think He's requiring 100% certainty.

I think counting on something being true without sufficient justification
is emunah, not yedi'ah.

After all, to act be'emunah means to be reliable or trustworthy. The word
seems to describe being willing to count on something being true. Not
knowing it.

Although I agree that there is a spectrum between belief and full
knowledge, depending on the strength of one's justification for accepting
the idea's truth.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 05:44:41PM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
: If we were to select the names of the participants, we would choose the
: Neshama to be the provider of all this wisdom, since it is connected to
: HKBH and the thinking part of the person to be the seeker.

The Ramchal sees the neshamah as something that is drawn to G-d. Not that
its connection is a given and a source of information.

: However, Reb M Ch Luzzatto has the Neshama as the seeker and the Seichel as
: the source of guidance.
...
: And the brain the Seichel, does it have no feelings?

The seikhel isn't the brain, it's a function of the nefesh. (At least,
I think in the Ramchal's anatomy of the soul it's the nefesh. I know the
Gra holds that consciousness, and thus conscious thought, is something
the ruach does.)

The point is that what makes a person human is not our extension
into heaven where we can cleave to the Almighty and receive the ziv
haShechinah. It's our free will, which gives us the capacity to give. And
that is the product of the soul as it is in tension between the worlds,
not the neshamah's heavenly tropism.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org   through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger

R' Akiva Miller:
Prof. Levine quoted a weekly bulletin:

> Once upon a time this was accomplished through the incomparable 
> lunchtime cholent , but evidently a new religion has arisen that 
> closely resembles Judaism that includes a ritual called "Friday night 
> Cholent". Back to the drawing board!
-------------------------------


claimed. This bulletin is either speaking tongue in cheek, or looking to
make an issue out of a non-issue.

KT,
MYG 

Any issues involved in using a corkinet on Shabbat?

Ben

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 05:06:27AM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Any issues involved in using a corkinet on Shabbat?

Translation: corkinet - scooter. The skateboard-like thing with a handle
added. Not the lightweight motorcycle.
See http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%98

for picture of a little girl on a Razor brand qorqinet.

I'm wondering what issue RBW would think would be different when
discussing bicycles. A topic of known complexity where we usually
rule stringently.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On 11/14/2012 8:30 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 05:06:27AM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
>> Any issues involved in using a corkinet on Shabbat?
...
> I'm wondering what issue RBW would think would be different when
> discussing bicycles. A topic of known complexity where we usually
> rule stringently.

No chains.  Presumably solid tires.  And it doesn't go under its own 
power.  I can't imagine what would be wrong with them.  I'd compare them 
more to inline skates than bicycles, and I'd think inline skates would 
be more problematic than these because of stability issues.

My question is: is the corkinet more like a bike (since it used for qef) 
or is it more like a baby carriage (in the sense that there is no chain, 
simple wheels, very little to break down).

Ben

On 11/14/2012 4:30 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 05:06:27AM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> I'm wondering what issue RBW would think would be different when 
> discussing bicycles. A topic of known complexity where we usually rule 
> stringently. Tir'u baTov! -Micha 

http://garnelironheart.blogspot.com/2012/11/how-old-was-rivkah.html
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