Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 11

Wed, 09 Jan 2013

• 1. Nedarim - bilshon benei adam (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: female masseuse (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Re: economics 101 (Zev Sero)
• 4. Hasagat Gevul of a bus company (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 5. Re: Shituf (Daniel M. Israel)
• 6. Re: Shituf (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: economics 101 (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: A Three-Day Journey (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Hasagat Gevul of a bus company (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: economics 101 (Akiva Miller)
• 11. Re: Shituf (Meir Shinnar)
• 12. Re: Menasheh and Efrayim, or Efrayim and Menasheh? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: economics 101 (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: A Three-Day Journey (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Shituf (Lisa Liel)
• 16. Re: economics 101 (Zev Sero)

I just started Nedarim pereq 6, and something about this pereq and the
next one eludes me.

According to R' Yochanan and the Bavli takes this is the default, nedarim
are bilshon benei adam (LBA). R' Yoshiyah argues and says that nedarim
are in leshon haTorah (LHT), which the Y-mi takes to mean in addiiton to
benei adam. IOW, R' Yoshiyah is machmir and says a neder includes anything
the phrase would include in common usage, as well as any usage in the
Torah. (And possibly the Nakh as well. It depends how you learn Y-mi 20a.)

But here's what I don't get... Why is Rebbe spending two peraqim spelling
out examples of this principle? After all, he knew that different regions
have different idioms, and that LHT differs from LBA. So, he knew that
all these mishnayos wouldn't remain true over time.

E.g. if someone in EY today is "noder min hamevushal" (6:1), the mishnah's
list -- "mutar betzeli ubeshaluq" would not be necessarily true. We would
have to check out modern Israeli idiom and see whether most people would
include fried and stewed food when they say "mevushal".

And then the gemara doesn't treat the mishnayos this way either!?

E.g.: On Y-mi 6:1 vilna daf 20a R' Chiya bar Ba [the Bavli's R Chiya
bar Abba] tells of a time when R' Yochanan was eating some kind of
boiled bread-based food (kneidlach?) called chalita, and later says
"Lo ta'amis mazon behada yoma." This is then questioned from a beraisa,
"hanodeir min hamazon, mutar bemayim ubemelach" -- implying that foods
other than salt and water are included in "mazon"! They answer that
this beraisa is according to R' Yoshiyah.

Why not simply say R' Yochanan was speaking less precisely than typical
usage, or in his time and place "mazon" was used in a more limited sense
than what Rebbe (or R' Meir -- stam mishnah) encountered? Admittedly both
R' Yochanan and R' Meir lived in the Teveriah area, but my grandfather
and I speak different idiom.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

And this is the psak of the Rema.

Ben

On 1/9/2013 3:28 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> I have alwats assumed that a man should not use a female masseuse and 
> certainly the opposite (female using male masseuse)
>
> I recently saw a hagaot ashri (ketuvot chapter 5, #23 in Rosh) that 
> states that one is allowed to use a shifcha or a female nonJew to wash 
> the men in a public bathhouse.and it is prohibited only in private
>
> --


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On 9/01/2013 10:08 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> In Baba Mezia 40 the gemara states that one cannot make a profit of more
> than 1/6

On food.  And note that this 1/6 is "milegav", so it's really a 20% profit
margin, and that's after all expenses are taken into account.  Also note
that a retailer of small items such as eggs, which require a lot of work,
and also items such as spices which are not food in themselves, may make
a 100% profit.


> Ritva adds that a talmid chacham should charge the maximum 1/6 and it is
> better that he make his own living and not live off of charity
>
> Arukh Hashulchan (CM 231b)  complains that on the contrary in his country
> lower the prices below the 1/6 profit level which causes poverty and this
> makes no sense
>
> -----------------------------------------
> I am at a loss to explain these opinions. As one learns in economics prices
> are set by supply and demand. If a TC charges higher prices than others
> (but allowed by halacha) he wont have business.
>
> Businessmen are not charging less than a 1/6 profit because of generosity
> but because that is what the market bears.

I have always assumed that this is in a market which is poorly enough
supplied that would bear a greater profit margin, but the halacha requires
that when selling food to our fellow Jews we do them a favour and charge
less than the market price, limiting our profit to 20% (or 100% for some
items).  In modern market conditions this halacha is irrelevant, because
it's impossible to make such a high profit in the first place; if profits
ever got so high in any sector, more people would enter it and bring them
down.  But this depends on communication and transport, which were lacking
in Chazal's day.

In the case of the Ritva's advice to a TC, one could apply it even today;
he should charge prices that are significantly higher than everyone else,
and people should buy from him in order to support him bederech kavod.




-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

In that case the post office didn't provide any service at all, and there was no obligation to use their service. 

Though I don't agree with it, I can see the following rationale:
Once the stamp was put on, the intention was to have the Post Office
benefit by it. Therefore, the Chofetz Chayim felt a moral obligation.
It certainly takes a m'dakdek person to do that but I feel it is most
remarkable and noteworthy. 

If I walk home, do I have to send the bus company a fare? 

No, but if you board the bus and then decide to walk and turn around 
prior to putting the fare in the box and leave the bus, that would probably
be similar the stamp circumstance. 
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On 2013-01-09 08:43, Micha Berger wrote: 

> The only thing on the
list that didn't bother me was her "modif[ied]
> sacrament of the sick
(aka last rites)." What could be wrong with getting
> a dying person to
say a vidui that only refers to the Borei?

If the patient naturally
assumes that references to the Borei include shituf?

If the patient
perceives what is happening as a Jewish chaplain helping him perform
non-Jewish rituals?

-- 
Daniel Israel
d...@cornell.edu
 
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On 9/01/2013 1:35 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 11:02:37AM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> Tosfot, which is often used as a support for shituf being permissible
>> for non-Jews, says nothing of the sort...
>
> The Tosafos in question are Sanhedrin 63b d"h "asur le'adam" and
> Bekhoros 2b d"h "shema yischayeiv lo aku"m shevu'ah".
>
> Actually, see RJDBleich, "Divine Unity in Maimonides, the Tosafists and
> Me'iri" pg 239 in "Neoplatonism and Jewish Thought" published by SUNY
> in 1992. <books.google.com/books?id=m0yhkWuqIqYC&pg=PA239>
>
> RJDB notes that R' Tam can be read either way, but that the weight of
> mesorah since is to take him as saying. IOW, there is one way to read
> it that is more natural to Lisa and RMJB, and then there is the Noda
> beYehudah's way. (Fn 7 is not in the Google preview, and I couldn't find
> the mar'eh maqom in the NbY myself.) Although, unlike Lisa's flat denial,
> RMJB does find the NbY's reading to fit the text. (Just less "literal".)


I think you're misreading RJDB.  The NB's view, as he explains it, is
exactly what RLL just wrote.  And really, if you look at the gemara and
the Tosfos, it's pretty clear that it is correct.  Neither the gemara nor
the Tosfos is talking about beliefs, but only about oaths.  The only part
of the Tosfos that touches on what is permitted to nochrim is the line at
the end where he dismisses the concern for lifnei iver, and what one is
causing the nochri to do is not to believe or worship but to swear, and
we don't find *that* issur applying to nochrim.

What I think most people miss when they read this Tosfos is the context
of the previous page, 63a, to which RLL alluded.  That's where "shituf"
is defined for this context, and it doesn't refer to any kind of belief;
it means, literally, combining Hashem and something else in the same phrase.
And it is *that* which Tosfos says was not forbidden to Bnei Noach.

In any case, I think RJDB makes a major error in the first paragraph of
the page when he writes "clearly the doctrine which the Tosafot seek to
legitimize for non-Jews is Trinitarianism.  I don't see that at all in
the Tosfos, who refers only to their saints, "kedeishim shelahem", which
is clearly a cacophemism for "kedoshim".

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 1/9/2013 9:08 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> In Baba Mezia 40 the gemara states that one cannot make a profit of 
> more than 1/6

> Ritva adds that a talmid chacham should charge the maximum 1/6...

> Arukh Hashulchan (CM 231b)  complains that on the contrary in his 
> country lower the prices below the 1/6 profit level which causes 
> poverty and this makes no sense...

> I am at a loss to explain these opinions. As one learns in economics ...

Chazal were not economists. Neither were the Rishonim. (Neither are most
of the so-called economists today.) They made rules like this based on
empirical data from the towns where they lived. If the Ritva gives a
reason, then clearly, if charging the maximum would *not* permit him to
make his own living, he wouldn't insist on the 1/6.

Sometimes I wonder whether it's safe for a talmid chacham to say anything.
People will enshrine it as virtual mikra and apply it from then on,
wholly divorced from the actual situation.

Lisa

On 9/01/2013 6:09 AM, Akiva Miller wrote:
> 7,8) In Sefer Sh'mos, both last week (5:3)*and*  this week (8:23),
> Moshe asks Par'o for no more than a 3-day furlough. And these were not
> merely Moshe speaking on his own initiative, but at Hashem's command
> (3:18)! Even as late as after the ninth makkah, in 10:24-26, Par'o
> still thought that the exodus would be less than total, and Moshe
> refrained from correcting this misimpression.

As I understand it, had Par'oh agreed to the three-day leave they would
have returned, and stuck it out for the rest of the 400 years.  But Hashem
knew that he wouldn't agree, and therefore He would end up taking them out
of Egypt permanently.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 9/01/2013 1:33 AM, Daniel M. Israel wrote:
>   Do we consider a store that gives too much change to be an issue of
> aveidah or g'neivah?

Aveidah, of course.  How can it be geneivah?  They gave it to you.



On 9/01/2013 1:33 AM, Daniel M. Israel wrote:
> But, in any case, I don't see what this case has to do with the case of
> the CC. In that case the post office didn't provide any service at all,
> and there was no obligation to use their service. If I walk home, do I
> have to send the bus company a fare? If my wife bakes her own challah,
> should I pay the baker? I don't even see how this is warranted even
> lifinim mishuris hadin.

The Post Office has a legal monopoly on the delivery of letters.
Thus technically when you deliver a letter for someone you're infringing
that monopoly. I assume the CC was concerned about this, because of DdMD,
but at the same time would rather entrust his mail to someone he knew,
so he reconciled it by tearing up a stamp, so the Post Office wouldn't
be harmed by the infringement, and therefore it would no longer be their
business what he did.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> In Baba Mezia 40 the gemara states that one cannot make a
> profit of more than 1/6. Ritva adds that a talmid chacham
> should charge the maximum 1/6 and it is better that he make
> his own living and not live off of charity
> ...
> I am at a loss to explain these opinions. As one learns in
> economics, prices are set by supply and demand. If a TC
> charges higher prices than others (but allowed by halacha)
> he won't have business.

I reached different conclusions, which led to different questions.

The way I hear this Ritva, as presented by RET, the idea is that people
will willingly sidestep Supply and Demand, supporting the TC by knowingly
paying him above-market prices.

My question is that with such a setup, the TC effectively *is* living off
charity. The question might be answered by pointing out that it is a
kavoddik non-blatant sort of charity, but I don't know if that makes such a
difference, especially if it is well-known.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50edd593ace375593141cst01vuc

1) the rites are not the 4 that are assur regardless of intent & nature of worship
2) why is she doing the rites? Not that she is trying to worship Jesus, but
to enable them to fulfill their worship ( eg, someone needed to pour water,
anoint - which have no az significance outside	of what we give them -	or
say some texts) .what makes the actions assur? The intent, & there is
no intent of avoda Zara - but to merely enable the nonJew to keep his
worship....
Similarly with the text - is it assur without kavanah? Are Jewish musicians
forbidden to sIng a Bach cantata ( or mass) in a concert performance? What
about professional singers working in a church?
At a certain point, one can argue that one has crossed the line - but it is
a subtle issue. As many today view Christianity as clear az, the line seems
far clearer to them...

Meir Shinnar
Sent from my iPad

On Jan 9, 2013, at 8:39 PM, avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org wrote:

> She herself is doing rites. Not giving them the tools to do them
> themselves. I therefore don't see it as merely accomodation, assistance
> or enhancement. That interpretation didn't cross my mind when I posted,
> and doesn't seem plausible to me now.

On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 02:57:44AM +0000, Akiva Miller wrote:
: However, in 48:5, when Yaakov announces that each of these sons will be
: full-fledged shevatim, just like Reuven and Shimon, Yaakov Avinu refers to
: them as "Efrayim and Menasheh". This is nine pesukim earlier than 48:14,
: in which Yosef attempts to correct his father.

The Maharal (Gur Aryeh ad loc) answers that Yoseif was not surprised
by his father giving the more learned son more kavod. But when it
came to the bekhorah, it shouldn't have been an issue of merit, but of
primogenitury alone. And therefore it wasn't until Yaaqov placed Ephraim
ahead of Menasheh in the berakhah that Yoseif thought he was erring.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 01:51:13PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 9/01/2013 10:08 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>> In Baba Mezia 40 the gemara states that one cannot make a profit of more
>> than 1/6

> On food.

Onaas mamon applies to all commodities except avadim. As long as there
is a shaar (a going rate, which is why I used the word "commodities")
and it's metaltelim.

>           And note that this 1/6 is "milegav", so it's really a 20% profit
> margin, and that's after all expenses are taken into account...

The SA's examples are (CM 227:2-4):
    [Onaah by the buyer:]
    - selling the value of 6 for 5 [- 1/6, underpaying by 1/6 the value]
    - ... or the value of 7 for 6 [- 1/7, underpaying by 1/6 the price]
    [Onaah by the seller:]
    - or selling the value of 5 for 6 [+ 1/5, overcharging by 1/6 the price]
    - or the value of 6 for 7 [+ 1/6, overcharging by 1/6 the value]
    then this is ona'ah ... and he me'aneh must pay the ona'ah...

    If the ona'ah was a kol shehu less... he doesn't have to return
    anything... it is the norm for everyone to be machol that.

    If the ona'ah was more than 1/6 by a kol shehu, like he sold 60
    for 50 minus a perutah [ie 49.75, or - 1/5.85], the sale is batel,
    and the mis'aneh may (yakhol) return the property, but the me'aneh
    may not reneg if the other wants it...

You'll notice that I phrased each of the four cases three ways:
    - the SA's wording
    - the difference in value
    - how it comes to 1/6 -- whether that's in value or in price.

That last formulation, value vs price, is from the SMA s"q 3. I don't
know why he uses that rather than milegav vs milevar. After all, the
SMA's +1/6 of the value is, as Zev noted, 1/6 the price milegav, ie +20%
on the price.

But if we look at "cannot make a profit" rather than violating ona'ah:

The buyer will have to pay at least the larger of the SA's first two
shiurim in order for the sale to be binding on the seller. So his best
case is spending more than 6 to get a value of 7. Profit caps at under
1/6 of the money laid out.

And the seller can't charge more than the smaller of the SA's latter
two shiurim. So the best he can do is selling merchandise worth 6 for
just under 7, also a profit cap of under 1/6.

The 20% Zev speaks of doesn't reach my calculation of profit cap because
it's more than 1/6 the value. And the seller's profit is in relation to
his investment, which is in value.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore

On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 11:09:50AM +0000, Akiva Miller wrote:
: ...: http://tinyurl.com/bbj79rv

: In my opinion, [CR Lord Jonethan Sacks] raises an important question,
: and phrases it quite powerfully, but his answer is not nearly as good as
: his question is, and I'm hoping that someone can either offer a better
: answer, or show me what I missed in his.

: He brings seven stories in Chumash where a tzadik deliberately tells
: a half-truth, with the deliberate intention of deceiving someone..

This is a kelal in halakhah -- meshaneh es ha'emes mipenei hashalom,
but outright sheqer would be assur. The Center for Jewish Values has a
nice collection of mar'eh meqomos on the topic at
<http://www.jewishvalues.us/uploads/102_Anochi_Esav.pdf>. (That PDF has
images of the text. But when I learned their material, my chavrusah and
I often felt they were cutting the snippets at a size that advances the
general point, but often too short to get a real idea of the source's
shitah.)

I listed cases in <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n078.shtml#02>
where the gemara allows shinui. See
also RAZivitofsky's article in Judaism at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/1993-Truthfullness-Judaism.pdf#pa
ge=3>.
He lists (other than piquach nefesh) mipenei hashalom, preventing
financial loss, anavah, tzenius and hospitality, dignity (see next
paragraph). And then continues with the limitation of shinui vs sheqer.

Beis Hillel answered "keitzad meraqdim" with "kallah na'ah vachasudah"
rather than Beis Shammai's "kallah kemos shehi" as part of a general
kelal about not making someone regret their commitments (including
purchases). See Kesuvos 17a. How is it shinui rather than sheqer? Because,
they explain, she is na'ah vachasudah in the chasan's eyes.

IOW, shalom (and a few other things) are higher priorities than emes.
One can't totally ignore emes (except to prevent piquach nefesh), but
in the case of conflict, one can bend it.

RMF invoked "verav chesed va'emes" to explain why he was more concerned
about helping someone who came to him asking for a hasqamah for his sefer
or an ishur for fundraising than investing hours to check the facts.
Chesed comes first.

Then there is R' Shim'on in Bereishis Rabba 8:5, about HQBH casting down
Emes after it and Shalom objected to His idea of the creation of man. Why
didn't Hashem cast both? Because once Emes is compromised, humanity's
existence doesn't /require/ the abandonment of Shalom. (Although in
practice, we pretty consistently do.)


Aside from the 3 days, which I understood as Zev did: Moshe was really
asking Par'oh for permission to spend 3 days going to get the Torah
and returning to slavery. But the rest of CR/L JSacks's examples are
in concert with the halakhah. In fact, Yevamos 65b cites the brothers'
mistruth to Yoseif and Hashem's partial truth to Avraham as sources for
the din!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 1/9/2013 3:24 PM, Meir Shinnar wrote:
> 1) the rites are not the 4 that are assur regardless of intent&  nature of worship
> 2) why is she doing the rites? Not that she is trying to worship
> Jesus, but to enable them to fulfill their worship ( eg, someone
> needed to pour water, anoint - which have no az significance outside 
> of what we give them -  or say some texts) .what makes the actions
> assur? The intent,&  there is no intent of avoda Zara - but to
> merely enable the nonJew to keep his worship....
>    
According to all the Rishonim except possibly the Meiri, his worship is 
avodah zarah.  Enabling the non-Jew to violate that is wrong.

> Similarly with the text - is it assur without kavanah? Are Jewish musicians forbidden to sIng a Bach cantata ( or mass)

Absolutely, if it's Christian liturgy.  Same with Christmas carols.  Are 
you suggesting there's any situation in the world that would make it 
permissible for a Jew to sing Silent Night?  If you defecate in front of 
Baal Peor even as an insult, you've committed avodah zarah, because 
that's derekh avodato.  How would this be different?

> in a concert performance? What about professional singers working in a church?
>    
The thing about kabbalat ol malchut shamayim is that there are things 
that are denied us.  We don't take jobs that require us to work on 
Shabbat.  We don't sing prayers to avodah zarah.

> At a certain point, one can argue that one has crossed the line - but
> it is a subtle issue. As many today view Christianity as clear az, the
> line seems far clearer to them...
>    
Indeed.  I don't see the subtlety here.

Lisa

On 9/01/2013 6:25 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 01:51:13PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 9/01/2013 10:08 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>>> In Baba Mezia 40 the gemara states that one cannot make a profit of more
>>> than 1/6

>> On food.

> Onaas mamon applies to all commodities except avadim. As long as there
> is a shaar (a going rate, which is why I used the word "commodities")
> and it's metaltelim.

This has nothing to do with ona'ah.  You are confusing two completely
unrelated topics.


On 9/01/2013 3:38 PM, Akiva Miller wrote:
> My question is that with such a setup, the TC effectively*is* living
> off charity. The question might be answered by pointing out that it is
> a kavoddik non-blatant sort of charity, but I don't know if that makes
> such a difference, especially if it is well-known.

It's no different than choosing to buy Israeli products even if they're
more expensive than similar products from other countries.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name


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