Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 49

Fri, 22 Mar 2013

• 1. Re: Raiach Nichoach (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: piskei RMF (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: gebrochs (Ben Waxman)
• 4. Rice and Corn May be Eaten for the Entire Day of Erev Pesach (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 5. Re: gebrochs (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: gebrochs (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Reb Moshe, The Case of Hidden Kitniyos in your KLP Cocolate (Meir Rabi)
• 8. Re: Kitniyot (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Gebrochts, don't worry about the stray wheat kernels (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 10. ain mevattlin issur - chocolate (CMB)
• 11. gebrochs (Eli Turkel)
• 12. gebrochs (saul newman)
• 13. Re: Kitniyot (Kenneth Miller)
• 14. Kitniyos on Erev Pesach (Prof. Levine)

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 08:54:50PM +0200, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: Being as we are now in Vayikra, does anyone know where I can find a
: good explanation of what Raiach Nichoach means?

The MC in his haqdamah to Vayiqra finds a balance between the Rambam's
and Ramban's shitos about the purpose of qorbanos.

Rambam (naively reading the Moreh Nevuchim): Hashem gave us qorbanos,
a normal idolatrous practice, to wean us from avodah zarah.

Ramban: How is this possible? Noach offered a qorban and there were no
idolators or peer pressure. Rather qorbanos are to unify all planes of
human existance: the thought of teshuvah, the speech of confession,
and the action of the qorban. In addition, the person who sinned and
brought a qorban sees the offering and realizes the severity of the act;
that justice untempered by mercy would have called for his own death,
not an animal's.

The MC says that the Rambam's notion of weaning was the role of bamos.
The weaning period ended when the Beis haMiqdash was dedicated in Y-m,
which is why bamos became prohibited at that time. However, we failed,
AS and bamos thrived throughout bayis rishon. Qorbanos in the Beis
haMiqdash is called a rei'ach nikho'ach (a pleasant smell before Hashem)
because they were to unify the worlds, as explained by the Ramban.

Perhaps we could add: reiach nikhoach particularly refers to the
unification of the worlds being represented by the conversion of the
animal's flesh to an intangible reiach. Thus the choice of term.

But... There is another MC:

R' Chaim (Tosafos Megillah 10a "vekhulei alma") says that even if one
holds "LO qidshah le'asid lavo", bamos would remain prohibited. The
machloqes is only whether qorbanos on the maqom hamizbeiach would still
be permitted.

Vayiqra 26:31 reads:
    Vehashimosi es miqdesheikhem,
    velo ariach bereiach nochichachem.

The Meshekh Chokhmah there explains that the first half is saying there
will be no miqdash, and the second half is saying -- and even so, you
can't bring qorbanos on bamos.

But the MC acknoqledged in the haqadamah that a reiach nikhoach doesn't
refer to bamah. So how could the 2nd half refer to one?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 04:26:08PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: 5) He didn't understand how a dentist could rape a patient since it is
: against the chazakah that a professional doesnt ruin his profession "uman
: eino mera umnoto"

I'm not sure what RMF's question is. So the kelal has exceptions. Not
enough to make yichud a risk that should be prohibited. But still,
it's just a general rule.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

What is the reason not to be maqpid? Don't gebrochtniks hold that it is 
a safeq doreitta?

Ben

On 3/21/2013 2:04 PM, Rich, Joel wrote:

In a recent shiur R? H Schachter said if you hold gebrochts you should 
be makpid for keilim as well.
KT
Joel Rich

I am sure that Reb Zev would have included my response had he been aware -
link <http://www.realmatza.com/kitniyos-erev-pesach-soho-sushi.html>
http://www.realmatza.com/kitniyos-erev-pesach-soho-sushi.html

  I have indicated that the Halacha permits consumption of Kitniyos [read
Soho Sushi] all day Erev Pesach, just as we may consume potatoes all day
Erev Pesach.

  A rabbi has offered his learned opinion in response, and I thank him for
his contribution to this discussion. I have emailed him my response for his
benefit and for the benefit of those who have seen his comments.

  Rabbi K writes that, ?for Ashkenasim, Kitniyos are as stringent as
Chamets? and may therefore not be consumed on Erev Pesach in the same way
and during the same times that Chamets is prohibited.

  Now, this is clearly an exaggeration. You see, unlike Chamets, we may
keep Kitniyos in our home during Pesach. The RaMa is the master of Minhag
Ashkenaz and the source for our Minhag of not consuming Kitniyos during
Pesach, Shulchan Aruch OCh 453:1. RaMa declares without reservation that
unlike Chamets, Kitniyos need not be sold. In fact Kitniyos may be kept in
our ?Pesach kitchen?.  Clearly, it is not true to say that ?for Ashkenasim,
Kitniyos are as stringent as Chamets?

  So, although the Minhag of Kitniyos is driven by concerns that it can be
easily confused with Chamets, as Rabbi K explained, it is nevertheless also
clear in and from the Halacha that this Minhag did not ever suggest that
Kitniyos ought to be handled and categorised as Chamets. So it is misguided
and illogical to suggest that Kitniyos are prohibited on Erev Pesach in the
same way and at the same times that Chamets is prohibited because, ?for
Ashkenasim, Kitniyos are as stringent as Chamets?.

  Here is another important difference between Kitniyos and Chamets.
Chamets which becomes inadvertently mixed into Pesach food BEFORE Pesach,
will be deemed insignificant at our standard Halachic proportion of 1 to
60. This is not true however with regard to Kitniyos inadvertently mixed
into Pesach food [even if this occurs DURING Pesach] Kitniyos is deemed to
be insignificant as long as it is less than half of the volume of the
mixture. So, even though one can easily discern the taste and flavour of
the rice flour in the Pesach Cholent, it is Kosher and may be eaten by
Ashkenasi Jews during Pesach. [Mishneh Berurah 453:9] Clearly, it is not
true to say that ?for Ashkenasim, Kitniyos are as stringent as Chamets?

  BTW, according to the Halacha we have just discussed, we may eat regular
non KLP chocolate that contains lecithin, and drink regular non KLP juices
and lemonades that use Kitniyos sweeteners, since these contain Kitniyos
that are less than 50% of the mixture and the Kitniyos are not readily
visible to the unaided eye. Foods containing 49% Kitniyos, that are not
specifically manufactured for Jews to consume during Pesach, have the same
status as foods that are specifically manufactured for Jews to consume
during Pesach into which 49% Kitniyos were inadvertently mixed.

  It is worthwhile explaining at this point that the guidelines that shape
the prohibition of eating Kitniyos during Pesach are not determined by the
Laws of Kashrus. Thus when Kitniyos becomes inadvertently mixed into our
foods we do not use the usual Kosher ratio of 1 part to 60. The reason
being that this custom has its own set of guidelines which are determined
by the Minhag itself, as explained by the Mishneh Berurah 453:8. Again we
see the extraordinary qualities of leniency ascribed to Kitniyos that do
not apply to Chamets. Clearly, it is not true to say that ?for Ashkenasim,
Kitniyos are as stringent as Chamets?

  Rabbi K also seeks proof from Siman 444.
We must eat three meals every Shabbos. This is also true when Erev Pesach
occurs on Shabbos. However, on Erev Pesach we may not eat a bread meal
after late morning. Must the third meal comprise bread and be eaten in the
morning, or is ?meat or fruit? adequate which can be consumed in the
afternoon? See Shulchan Aruch OCh 444.

  The Shulchan Aruch does not provide a comprehensive ?Kosher List? of
acceptable foods for the Third Meal for Shabbos, but offers classifications
? Category 1, bread; Category 2, meat; and Category 3, fruit. [Mishneh
Berruah 444:8] There is no interest at this point nor any need to elaborate
these categories as they are self-evident. Kitniyos are clearly less
significant than meat. [apologies to my vegetarian friends] Suggesting that
a proof can be fashioned from the Shulchan Aruch?s omission of Kitniyos as
an acceptable option for a Shabbos meal, is not a sensible observation nor
a credible argument.

  Rabbi K also quotes a number of Acharonim. For the time being I will not
comment on these, other than saying that to the best of my knowledge they
do not offer any proofs to support their suggestions.

  BTW, suggesting that something which is not explicitly permitted in the
Shulchan Aruch must be prohibited, is a facile and infantile argument. We
begin our interaction with Gd and Life with the premise that everything is
permitted, other than that which is specifically prohibited. Our Sages take
a very dim view of those who look for unnecessary stringencies and seek to
reduce the enjoyment of those things that Gd created for us to enjoy.


  Wishing all Yidden a Kosher Pesach,
  May we all merit to hear and be participants in the cause of the sounding
of the Shofar of Moshiach.

Best,

Rabbi Meir G. Rabi


*Its Kosher* <http://www.kosherveyosher.com> and *Exodus
Matza<http://www.exodusmatza.com>
*
*
*

*it's kosher Authority Pty Ltd    ****ABN: *77 160 144 374


ra...@itskosher.com.au    +61 0423 207 837


kal...@itskosher.com.au    +61 0431 559 695
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On 21/03/2013 6:03 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:

>> In a recent shiur R? H Schachter said if you hold gebrochts you should
>> be makpid for keilim as well.


> What is the reason not to be maqpid? Don't gebrochtniks hold that it is
> a safeq doreitta?

Yes, but it's an extreme safek, more like a sfek-sfek-sfeka de'oraita, and
it would not be common to worry about it if not for the AriZal's teaching
that one should be extremely machmir on Pesach.   If you read the Alter
Rebbe's teshuvah you see that the cheshash only arises by combining several
opinions in ways that the authors of those opinions themselves didn't.


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

In a recent shiur R' H Schachter said if you hold gebrochts you should 
be makpid for keilim as well.
KT
Joel Rich
===================================


What is the reason not to be maqpid? Don't gebrochtniks hold that it is 
a safeq doreitta?

Ben
=
IIRC there are 3 historical "reasons " posited
1) There's a concern for actual chametz
2)It's a gzeira because people might think it's ok to use flour in the same way
3)maarit ayin

For 2 and 3 one can see why you wouldn't be concerned, for 1 would agree with you.
KT
Joel Rich
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On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 10:26:40AM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
In response to the suggestion that there is no Bittul when a Goy adds non
Kosher DELIBERATELY or according to a RECIPE, and accordingly chocolate
with lecithin and drinks sweetened with tiny amounts Kitniyos are Assur
during Pesach for Ashkenazim, I should like to present the following
information.
The MaHARaM of Lublin, Teshuvah 104, Paskens that it is Muttar. Reb Moshe
YD 2:41 Paskens accordingly.


to clarify - RMF holds there is bittul when a goy adds a non-kosher
ingredient deliberately or according to a recipe to a mixture that is under
the supervision of a kashrus agency
Reb Moshe says this quite clearly, he says just because a Jew is monitoring
the process to ensure that non-K ingredients are not added - what's the big
deal? The Goy is the mover and instigator of the Hechsher.

However, if Glicks or PASKESZ sub-contract to package with their label that
is now Bittul Issur LeChatChiLa

A manufacturer who wants a KLP symbol on his packages of chocolate, and he
shows you the list of ingredients, which includes lecithin, you tell him,
"This recipe is fine," this is after-the-fact. It is BeDiOVad. The G is the
instigator, he is driving it for his profit, the Rav is employed.

Because if your neighbour Chris, brings over a Kugel cooked in his kitchen
as a gift for his Jewish neighbour, the J may not eat it. Why? Bishul Akkum.

So he says to Chris I like you youre a nice guy. Tell you what, next time
you get the  urge, call me over, we can do this together. So he gets called
goes over and participatesin the cooking ensures no non-K ingredients are
used and may in the FIRST instance eat the Kugel, because the G is not
instructed not to use EBYomo pots before they've been Kashered.
That is Reb Mosher's case

Best,

Meir G. Rabi

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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A few years ago, when this subject was a bit more of a hot topic, one of 
community rabbis (YU trained, learned with the Rav for several years) 
gave a talk on kitniyot. His talk was based on a shiyur that the Rav 
gave. I can't do justice to it; maybe some of the YU folks here can 
flesh out what I say (or correct it). The talk was on Shabbat, so I am 
relying on memory.

The Rav's basic assumption is that such a huge split in practice 
(kitniyot) can't be something that popped up in the 10th century; rather 
it has to be rooted in a machloqet in the Gemara. In addition, add in 
the historical data point that the European community was descended from 
the Jewish community in Israel, while the Eidat Hamizrach descended from 
the Babylonian community.

The dispute about the nature of rice (is it chametz or not) isn't 
restricted to the question of matza. It comes up several times (six 
IIRC) in Shas. The Rav's conclusion was that the Bavli decided the 
issue, that rice is not chametz, where as the Yerushalmi didn't come to 
a clear decision. So when you have a bag of this stuff, about which you 
don't know if it can become chametz or not, you do the simple and 
correct thing - you put it away for the week.

The European community, descended from the Israeli community kept the 
tradition, Edut Hamizrach never had it.

Please note that this rabbi was not making any statement about what 
should be designated as kiniyot or if one can eat at the house of an 
ochlei kitniyot during Pesach or any of these side issues. He was simply 
saying (IMO) that the approach that kitniyot is simply a historical 
mistake is simply bad psak and bad Talmud Torah.

Ben

On 3/20/2013 10:42 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> In this video, Rabbi Bar Hayim discusses the sources related to the 
> minhag of not eating kitniyot on Pesach.  He demonstrates that the 
> custom, which originated in France,

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Actually, according to the ShTesh I mentioned earlier, that only clumps of
flour can become Chamets but not individual specs of wheat flour - there
should be no problem even if the Kitniyos that are ground into flour do
contain the odd wheat or barley grain. They will be pulverized and once in
powder form cannot become Chamets. Do he entirely dismisses this argument
used to support the prohibition against Matza balls.
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r' micha
I saw you addressed this here: : In response to the suggestion that there
is no Bittul when a Goy adds non

: Kosher DELIBERATELY or according to a RECIPE, and accordingly chocolate
: with lecithin and drinks sweetened with tiny amounts Kitniyos are Assur
: during Pesach for Ashkenazim, I should like to present the following
: information.

: The MaHARaM of Lublin, Teshuvah 104, Paskens that it is Muttar. Reb Moshe
: YD 2:41 Paskens accordingly.

It is true that there are shittos who hold that way but it is far from
divrei hakol especially if it is a company that is doing it
intentionally- see this article on topic:

 http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4499.


i would like to further point out that r' y i spector when he added
point of kitniyos is because kitniyos is not intrinsic issur and
additionally it is battel brov meikar hadin - plus he did not hold
that oils or derivitaves have din of kintniyos - so it would be pretty
har to use his shittah as proof of a klal like this.


all the best and chag samayacj

Chaim M Brecher
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<<Not really possible for those who are not makpid the last day of Yom Tov.
Unless he's suggesting having two sets of Pesach dishes? :-) >>

Again the reason I was told was because the dishes won't be used again for
(almost) one year.

I again repeat my earlier comment that in a no-=gebrochs hotel it is almost
impossible to makpid on the keilim as one has no control over what guests
do with matza and soup

chag kasher vesameach

Eli Turkel
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>>>Not really possible for those who are not makpid the last day of Yom Tov

---who actually IS makpid on the last day?  gebrochs is basically a
hassidic custom, and i am not aware of any hassidim who arent meikel on
that last day in chul ...
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R"n Lisa Liel wrote:

> In this video, Rabbi Bar Hayim discusses the sources related
> to the minhag of not eating kitniyot on Pesach.
> He demonstrates that the custom, which originated in France,
> was an error, brings numerous Rishonim who say that it was
> an error (and in one cases called it a minhag shtut), and
> cogently that the custom is harmful and should be
> abandoned.

I did not watch the video, but for the sake of argument, I will concede that his sources are many and that his logic is sound.

But even so, he is in the minority, isn't he? Are there ANY major nosei
keilim or acharonim or poskim who advocate the wholesale abandonment of
this minhag, for Ashkenazim?

Honestly, I really don't understand the vehemence that I have recently seen
against this minhag, which Ashkenazim have been following for hundreds of
years. Granted that the poskim often question what is included in this
minhag, but doesn't everyone agree that Ashkenazim DO avoid kitniyos?

Have I missed something? Is there a Mishneh Brurah or an Aruch Hashulchan
somewhere which says that there are some places -- which otherwise follow
the Rama! -- where rice and beans are eaten, and that this practice is
okay?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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53/YO Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
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At 05:50 PM 3/21/2013, Zev Sero wrote:


>The following psak din was released by Rabbi Mottel Krasnjanski of 
>Melbourne.  (Quoted only in part.)
>=============================================================================
>
>I would like to state unequivocally that it is forbidden to eat any 
>Kitniyos on Erev Pesach from the same time one may not eat Chomets. 
>For Ashkenazim Kitniyos is as stringent as Chomets. It was with 
>great trepidation that some of the Rabbonim relaxed some of the laws 
>of Kitniyos during a famine otherwise it is totally forbidden.
>
>   <Snip>
>
>   Second, the fact that the Shulchan Oruch in Siman 444 in Hilchos 
> Pesach endeavours to find different options of how one is to 
> observe the Mitsvah of Sholosh Seudos when Erev Pesach is on 
> Shabbos and no Shulchan Oruch brings  the option of eating 
> Kitniyos. Obviously there is no such option.
>
>Most important the Chok Yaakov chapter 471 Seif Beis rules that it 
>is forbidden to eat Kitniyos then. So too paskens the Maharsham in 
>his earlier Sefer Daas Torah chapter 453.

<Snip>

>
>Conclusion no leading Posek says one may eat sushi and kitniyos  on 
>Erev pesach. Indeed Rabbi Vosner in Shevet Halevi says that one is 
>totally forbidden to eat Kitniyos on Erev Pesach, and says one 
>shouldn?t consider any leniency then. If anyone does they are 
>breaching the fence of Yiddishkeit.
>
>Let us all have a Kosher and freilicher Pesach and merit the coming 
>of Moshiach now.
>
>Rabbi Mottel Krasnjanski

On the other hand the following is from 
http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/Erev_Passover/

Products containing matzoh meal that are baked (e.g. matzoh meal 
cake) may not be eaten all day Erev Pesach. Kosher for Passover 
matzoh meal products that are cooked (e.g. knaidlach) may be eaten 
until the beginning of the 10th halachic hour of the day - three 
halachic hours before sunset.

>Thus it is clear that there is a real difference between eating 
>gebrokts and eating kitniyos on Pesach.  One is most certainly 
>allowed to eat certain gebrokts food Erev Pesach until the 10th 
>halachic hour whereas one is not allowed to eat kitniyos "on Erev 
>Pesach from the same time one may not eat 
>Chomets."  Furthermore,  the statement, "For Ashkenazim Kitniyos is 
>as stringent as Chomets. It was with great trepidation that some of 
>the Rabbonim relaxed some of the laws of Kitniyos during a famine 
>otherwise it is totally forbidden."  certainly does not mince any words.

Thus all attempts by some to suggest on Areivim that there be a 
Kitnyos Anonymous corresponding to Gebrokts Anonymous seem to me to 
be missing the point that eating gebrokts on Pesach is absolutely 
permitted and whereas eating kitnyos on Pesach for Ashkenazim is 
absolutely forbidden.

YL

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