Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 68

Mon, 15 Apr 2013

• 1. Re: Kohen in a bag on a plane to block Tumah (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Kohen in a bag on a plane to block Tumah (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: Kohen in a bag on a plane to block Tumah (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: kinyan hagbaah (Akiva Blum)
• 5. Quick question wrt birchas hagomel and Korban Todah (M Cohen)
• 6. Re: Quick question wrt birchas hagomel and Korban Todah (Rich, Joel)
• 7. (no subject) (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: (no subject) (Meir Rabi)
• 9. Re: (no subject) (Arie Folger)
• 10. Re: YHA nidche (Kenneth Miller)
• 11. Re: Kohen in a bag on a plane to block Tumah (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Kohen in a bag on a plane to block Tumah (Ben Waxman)

R' Zev Sero writes:
"Of course it doesn't matter. Ad larakia means ad infinitum."

Is that really so obvious? Let's take my example a little further. Imagine
you are standing on the moon and if you draw a straight line back to Earth
you are directly in line with a Jewish grave.  Would the tuma reach you?
What about on Mars?
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> 3. Does it matter at what altitude the plane is flying at? I know we
> say that tumah bokaas v'oleh ad lashamayim but does that include a
> plane flying at 35,000 feet? What about someone in orbit?

<<Of course it doesn't matter.  Ad larakia means ad infinitum.  If a line
drawn between the kohen and the centre of the earth passes through a
Jewish grave, he is tamei.  And if he knows it will happen then he is
commanded to do whatever he can to avoid it.>>

Not so clear - at these heights one has to take the curvature of the earth
into account.
Zev assumes that "ad le-rakiah" means in a radial direction. I severely
doubt that chazal thought in these terms.

Secondly "ad la-rakiah" cant really mean until infinity. Would a person on
the moon become tameh
because of events on the earth?
In a similar situation many poskim say that for Pesach "ma-shehu" cant be
taken literally
A minuscule amount of chametz is present in everything. Those who worry
about a crumb
in the Kinneret reaching there home have many other things to worry about.
If one keeps an open cask a water there might be a molecule of chametz in
the air that is absorbed in the water.

Is it not reasonable to extend terms used by Chazal to situations that
didnt dream about

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 05:42:52PM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
: 2. There are Jewish cemeteries all over the place, especially in the US and
: in Europe. If you fly from the US to Israel over Europe for example, how
: can you possible know if you are flying over a cemetery? Can you simply go
: with rov?

I think here it's not about rov, it's about 3 known cemetaries in Israel
below the known flight plan. They missed their flight home because of
Obama-related rescheduling, caught another flight via Cypress, and then
realized the flight path was a problem. He put on the bag shortly before
the Israeli coastline. (At least, that's YNet's version of the story. The
"3 cemetaries" part I saw yesterday, and don't recal where.)

I'm wondering how it's mutar to open Yahadus to ridicule rather than
stay at home, though. Or in this case, was he allowed not to reschedule a
second time? Even at the expense of using the money he raised in England
to do so?

Besides, it's not so farfetched to tell kohanim they can't leave EY. That
was the practice of the tannaim and amora'ei EY. Chu"l was deemed tamei,
and there are only certain situations which permit it. I wonder if that
includes fundraising rather than trying first to make ends meet working
in EY.

My Ra"m at KBY never left EY because he was a kohein.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

> On 14/04/2013 1:26 PM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
>> On Sunday, April 14, 2013, Zev Sero wrote:
>>
>>> No.  You have no baalus on them at all. People can't take them
>>> from you, not because they're yours, but because they're physically
>>> in your possession. If someone did take something from your cart do
>>> you really imagine you'd have recourse to a court or a beis din?!
>
>> However, taking them from another person should still be assur
>> because of v'ahavta l'reiacha kamocha, no?
>

Oni hamehapech bechararah?

Akiva

Quick question wrt birchas hagomel and Korban Todah

 

See http://rabbikaganoff.com/archives/1909

 

most rishonim hold that Korban todah is obligatory (and that KT is replaced
by b'gomel)

 

When the bais hamikdash is rebuilt, does this mean that everyone that flies
(overseas) will have to bring a KT?

 

Also, if flying is so 'dangerous' that it requires a b'gomel - why is it
mutar for vacation, etc

(it's true that one may travel for parnassa/mitzvah ie sailors, but why is
it mutar for vacation, etc)

I know that many hold we do not say BG for flying, but my question is on
those (r'moshe etc and the minhag haolam) who hold that we do say it.

 

Thanks, Mordechai cohen

 

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most rishonim hold that Korban todah is obligatory (and that KT is replaced by b'gomel)

When the bais hamikdash is rebuilt, does this mean that everyone that flies (overseas) will have to bring a KT?

Also, if flying is so 'dangerous' that it requires a b'gomel - why is it mutar for vacation, etc
(it's true that one may travel for parnassa/mitzvah ie sailors, but why is it mutar for vacation, etc)
I know that many hold we do not say BG for flying, but my question is on those (r'moshe etc and the minhag haolam) who hold that we do say it.

Thanks, Mordechai cohen
================================================
I'm not sure that most rishonim hold that way - some say it is an
independent chiyuv and even if not, there is a question as to whether the
KT is a chiyuv or a reshut.  IMHO the minhag haolam is based on not wanting
to change the status quo and so you end up with inconsistent practice.

KT
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RMR wrote:
> If someone did take something from your cart do you really imagine you'd
> have
> recourse to a court or a beis din?!

To which RLK responded:
> However, taking them from another person should still be assur because
> of v'ahavta l'reiacha kamocha, no?

which is totally beside the point, since we were discussing when someone is
koneh stuff he buys at the supermarket and conequently who bears the cost
of damages if something happens to the wares. Now since before paying at
the checkout, one customer could not sue another fellow in beis din for
having grabbed a pack of chocolate from his cart, it follows that the
chocolate still belonged to the supermarkt despite the first fellow having
been moshekh and magbiah the merchandise. That was meant as an argument to
explain that as long as one didn't pay, the supermarket wasn't makneh yet,
so the supermarket would bear responsibility for any goods that
subsequently were damaged.

All that just to explain, but personally, I have no stake in this
discussion, I own no supermarket, do no home deliveries, take no sides, and
happily follow along what others post.

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Schnellkurs im j?dischen Grundwissen: I. Der Schabbat (Audio)
* Warum beschneiden Juden ihre Knaben ? Multimedia-Vortrag
* Beschneidung, die aktuelle Rechtslage ? Multimedia Schiur
* Was mir in Holocaust Museen fehlt
* Beschneidungslerntag ? Schlu?worte (Multimedia)
* Paneldiskussion zur Beschneidung ? Audio-Datei
* Welche B?nde gibt es zwischen Mensch und G?tt? (Multimedia)
* R?ckblick Gedenkfeier F?rstenfeldbruck
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Very important that Rabbiner Fogel defined precisely what the Kinyan
accomplishes - "the supermarket would bear responsibility for any goods
that subsequently were damaged."

But there are other considerations which may well be deemed Kanuy to the
purchaser even BEFORE he has paid; for example, someone snatches from his
cart a bottle with a cap that carries a random prize. There is almost
certainly a Chiyuv BeDinei Shamayim and very likely BD would enforce either
formally or informally that the winning prize goes to the fellow who had it
in his cart.

Or as I intimated earlier, this lady has in her cart the last couple of
packages of this product, let's say KLP Coke.

So in regards to damage the items belong to the supermarket but in regards
to other considerations the purchaser is already deemed to be in control.


Best,

Meir G. Rabi


On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 11:14 PM, Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> RMR wrote:
> > If someone did take something from your cart do you really imagine you'd
> > have
> > recourse to a court or a beis din?!
>
> To which RLK responded:
> > However, taking them from another person should still be assur because
> > of v'ahavta l'reiacha kamocha, no?
>
> which is totally beside the point, since we were discussing when someone
> is koneh stuff he buys at the supermarket and conequently who bears the
> cost of damages if something happens to the wares. Now since before paying
> at the checkout, one customer could not sue another fellow in beis din for
> having grabbed a pack of chocolate from his cart, it follows that the
> chocolate still belonged to the supermarkt despite the first fellow having
> been moshekh and magbiah the merchandise. That was meant as an argument to
> explain that as long as one didn't pay, the supermarket wasn't makneh yet,
> so the supermarket would bear responsibility for any goods that
> subsequently were damaged.
>
> All that just to explain, but personally, I have no stake in this
> discussion, I own no supermarket, do no home deliveries, take no sides, and
> happily follow along what others post.
>
> Kol tuv,
> --
> Arie Folger,
> Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
> * Schnellkurs im j?dischen Grundwissen: I. Der Schabbat (Audio)
> * Warum beschneiden Juden ihre Knaben ? Multimedia-Vortrag
> * Beschneidung, die aktuelle Rechtslage ? Multimedia Schiur
> * Was mir in Holocaust Museen fehlt
> * Beschneidungslerntag ? Schlu?worte (Multimedia)
> * Paneldiskussion zur Beschneidung ? Audio-Datei
> * Welche B?nde gibt es zwischen Mensch und G?tt? (Multimedia)
> * R?ckblick Gedenkfeier F?rstenfeldbruck
>
>
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On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com> wrote:

> But there are other considerations which may well be deemed Kanuy to the
> purchaser even BEFORE he has paid; for example, someone snatches from his
> cart a bottle with a cap that carries a random prize. There is almost
> certainly a Chiyuv BeDinei Shamayim and very likely BD would enforce either
> formally or informally that the winning prize goes to the fellow who had it
> in his cart.


No kinyan, but this might fall under ani hamehapekh becharara (the price is
set, no haggling in supermarket, so it should be like pasku damim), or
marchikqin metsudat hadag min hadag.

But in all these, the kinian is only rabbinic ve-eino yotze bedayanim AFAIR.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Schnellkurs im j?dischen Grundwissen: I. Der Schabbat (Audio)
* Warum beschneiden Juden ihre Knaben ? Multimedia-Vortrag
* Beschneidung, die aktuelle Rechtslage ? Multimedia Schiur
* Was mir in Holocaust Museen fehlt
* Beschneidungslerntag ? Schlu?worte (Multimedia)
* Paneldiskussion zur Beschneidung ? Audio-Datei
* Welche B?nde gibt es zwischen Mensch und G?tt? (Multimedia)
* R?ckblick Gedenkfeier F?rstenfeldbruck
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R' David Cohen wrote:

> The obvious answer is that it's perfectly reasonable to say
> that we always mark the anniversary of that 8th day on the 8th
> day from 25 Kislev, regardless of what its exact date in any
> given year.  My point is that based on context, there is more
> than one way to define "this same day last year" and mark an
> anniversary.

Zos Chanuka is not the only situation where we use this concept. It also explains why Shavuos can fall on any of three different dates.

Shabbos Hagadol is another interesting case. Zos Chanuka and Shavuos will
vary in the month they occur, but both are a fixed number of days from a
specific starting point. (Zos Chanuka is always 32 Kislev, and Shavuos is
always 65 Nisan, so to speak.) But Shabbos Hagadol is simply the Shabbos
before Pesach, whenever that might happen to be, and is not a fixed number
of days from anything. This is exactly the point RDC is making -- The
significance of Shabbos Hagadol is not where is lies in the month, but
where it lies in the week, and where it lies in relation to Pesach, but the
calendar is otherwise irrelevant.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
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Pointers to prior iterations:

Kohanim in Cars in Cemeteries (Jul 2008)
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=K
#KOHANIM%20IN%20CARS%20IN%20CEMETERIES

Kohanim Flying on Airplanes (a one post "thread") by R' Daniel
Wolf for Yeshivat Har Etzion ("Gush")'s Virtual Beis Medrash
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol08/v08n101.shtml#14>. Notably,
he concludes:

    Where does that leave us, if not altogether confused? Hopefully,
    it leaves us with an understanding of both positions and a bit more
    knowledge of the fascinating and complex world of taharot. Sometimes
    it is better to be perplexed and confounded rather than confused.

    The proposed solution of wrapping oneself in a large bag on the
    plane would encounter both problems discussed. One needs a "utensil"
    which is not mekabel tum'a (a large plastic or nylon bag would do)
    and it must be sealed; the easiest method would probably be to seal
    it with duct tape. Of course, we are not interested in producing
    another corpse on the plane. We may, however, propose an ironically
    simple solution. Paradoxically, only the opening must be sealed;
    there can be multiple holes in other places of the "utensil." Thus,
    one can simply cut holes in different places in the bag.

    That is as far as the dry halakha is concerned. The gemara in
    Sanhedrin relates that Rebbe Yehuda Hanasi refused to grant Rav the
    authority to rule on certain matters even though he knew the halakhot
    perfectly well, as he was afraid that he would be misunderstood. In
    the position of posek, one must consider the public effect of his
    decisions. The gemara on many occasions rules, "halakha ve-ein
    morin kein" - the halakha is clear but we must not issue such a
    ruling. Perhaps today the danger is greater, as we, as observant Jews,
    and, more seriously, the halakha and Torah are constantly subject
    to ridicule (by both the malicious and the ignorant). I am sure the
    original rabbis who issued the edict would have done otherwise had
    a reporter asked their opinion, but it was in any event inevitable
    that such a psak would be publicized. If the posek can find no way
    to allow travel over cemeteries, perhaps alternate routes could be
    explored, but the proposed solution is a nonstarter for reasons of
    chilul hashem. In Avot (1:11) Avtalion says: Wise men, be cautious
    with your words, lest... the name of the Lord be desecrated."

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

[From Areivim: -micha]
> Wouldn't the tum'ah enter through the snorkel?

> Lisa

I was sent the following:
- The kli must be of a material that is not mekabel tuma -- and plastic
  is considered like water halachically and so this is good.
- The kli must be sealed; taping or tying the bag, acc. to R. Bleich,
  is not a proper seal.
- The kli, acc. to R. Bliech, must be able to stand on its own and the
  bag does not have this property.

Therefore the bag doesn't work.


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