Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 107

Mon, 03 Jun 2013

• 1. Re: electricity on Shabbos - R. Asher Weiss (Kenneth Miller)
• 2. shelach gems (Eli Turkel)
• 3. LEDs (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Bishul Akum question (martin brody)
• 5. DON'T FORGET (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 6. New Rulings From Rav Moshe Feinstein zt?l (Lisa Liel)
• 7. RABBI YEHIEL YAAKOV WEINBERG: IN PRAISE OF ESTHER RUBINSTEIN (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Why did Moshe present logical arguments to Hashem after the sin of the meraglim? (Marty Bluke)
• 9. Re: electricity on Shabbos - R. Asher Weiss (Marty Bluke)
• 10. kefir kashrus (saul newman)
• 11. Re: electricity on Shabbos - R. Asher Weiss (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: electricity on Shabbos - R. Asher Weiss (Marty Bluke)
• 13. Induction stove on Yom tov (Liron Kopinsky)

R"n Chana Luntz wrote:

> If you allow LEDs, bang goes the one thing that everybody
> agreed was actually an issur d'orisa in this new technology. We
> have already heard rumours of people who keep "half shabbas",
> ie who can't manage to stop themselves texting on shabbas. A
> d'orisa LED ban firmly stops this, being wishy washy on LEDs
> and microchips risks opening the gates to this.

I'm not sure that a ban on LEDs would really stop it. She is surely correct
that being lenient on them would open the floodgates. But she concludes
that paragraph:

>                                                   Do you
> believe that shabbas would be shabbas if we all kept our
> phones on?

THIS is an important question to consider. As for me, yes, I do believe that Shabbos would still be Shabbos.

It's not a new question. My understanding is that Chazal were already
grappling with it, and they instituted specific d'rabanans to insure that
Shabbos would still be Shabbos.

One of these was business. Say what you will about electricity, but you
still can't take your money and go to the store to buy a candy bar. Another
of these was muktzeh. You still won't be able to move your Shabbos candles.
Nor your wallet.

And even if the electronic internals of a device cease to pose melachic
problems, one must still consider the *function* of the device. One might
use the phone for texting, but I'm not so sure about voice calls - making
sounds could still be a problem. Ditto for one's radio or television.

I'll probably think of more examples, but these should suffice. Yes, I do
believe that Shabbos would still be Shabbos. I also think that there would
be a period of adjustment while we get used to it. If it happens, it will
probably take a few generations: My mother is still not used to kasher
l'pesach ice cream, whereas I am still not used to nisht gebrochts pizza.

(Note: I was going to open this post by mentioning how Rav Moshe Feinstein
was opposed to putting our lights on timers for Shabbos. But then I
remembered that his objection was Mar'is Ayin, not that it affects our
Shabbos mood. Still, I can EASILY see people who might have asked, "Do you
believe that shabbas would be shabbas if the lights would go off and back
on by themselves?")

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Weird trick
Bank loophole lets you collect silver from practically any bank
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/51a80683954656831141st01vuc

Rav Ziemba HY"D quotes a mishna in bikkurim that when one goes into the
field and sees new figs, grapes or pomegranets he ties something to the
fruit and says it is for bikkurim. He asks that Bikkurim comes from 7
species why does the Mishna give an example using these 3.

He answers that when the spies returned from EY the parsha says ther
brought these three frruits with thm. Thus, the mitzva of bikkurim is a
tikkun for the sin of the spies. They tried to downplace the importance of
EY while bikkurim elevates the place of EY.

Note - the phrase "meraglim" (and similar phrases) is never used in parshat
shlach only in devarim

-- 
Eli Turkel
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First I again thank Chana and agree with her physics of LED and
semi-conductors which indeed differ from electric flow in a wire circuit.


Chana writes
> But, to my mind, ignored the wider implication - as set out above.
> Unless you are comfortable with a shabbas with the phone on and texts
> coming in and out all the time, you have to be very careful writing
> something that could easily be taken by somebody looking for a heter as
> allowing this.

As far as I am aware no modern posek allows such use of electrical
devices essentially for the reasons that Chana gives. I understand
that RMF also felt that many uses of electricity are allowed but ruled
that since the general population cant distinguish between every device
there it is rabinically outlawed. Of course a major difference in these
shitot would be for a "choleh she-ein bo skahanh" , "tzurche rabim",
"tzaar balle chayim" etc. If the prohibition is DeOraisa then it is
diffilcult to allow except for saving a life. If it rabbinic (which most
poskim hold) then the posek has much more wiggle room.

Indeed following the approach of RMF it is indeed difficult to pasken on
many modern appliances. They are constantly changing. The refrigerator
that RSZA knew is not what is in use today whether for chumra or kula. If
one indeed allows the use of appliance X one would need to reissue the
psak every few years to account for the latest technology. i.e. do we
expect every individual (or individual posek) to know the physics of
LED devices.

BTW in another context RSZA was asked about a heter of his and would it
lead to problems and he answered that one is not allowed to be macmir when
something is mutar. In particular IMHO RSZA would not change a heter
because of people that keep "half shabbos"  (again just my personal opinion
- no proof)



For those interested in how LEDs work see
http://www.howstuffworks.com/led.htm

for example
In the future, some of the most incredible uses of LEDs will actually
come from organic light emitting diodes
<http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/oled.htm>, or *OLEDs*. The organic
materials used to create these semiconductors are flexible, allowing
scientists to create bendable lights and displays. Someday, OLEDs
will pave the way for the next generation of TVs and smart phones --
can you imagine rolling your TV up like a poster and carrying it with
you anywhere?

As these devices (organic) get stranger how foes this impact halacha?

-- 
Eli Turkel

"1) Reason for prohibition
a) Rabbenu Tam (and others) - leads to marriage
b) Hagahos Asheri brings Rashbam - danger of nonkosher food
Rashi in AZ brings both reasons in 2 places

heterim -
a) needs to be food fit for a king
b) allowed if it can be eaten raw
c) a Jew participates in the cooking
SA - Jew puts the food on the flame
Ramah - Jew lights the fire
Eli Turkel"

I never understood how heterim a and b above lessened the risks of
reasons 1 a and b above.
Does anybody have any thoughts?
Best
Martin Brody

Don't forget:
Tomorrow is Shabbos M'vorchim and Rosh Chodesh Tammuz
is next Shabbos and Sunday [June 8th and 9th] (Ya'aleh v'yavo Friday night).
The molad is Saturday night, June 8th at 8:33pm (and 17 chalakim).
[The value of a chelek which is approximately 3.3 seconds, made me think of
the value of pi (?) which is approximately 3.14159]. 

Also, on this date, Sivan 22,1312 BCE, Miriam was quarantined (due to her sin). 


The following is a cute (but serious) story by Chana Slavaticki, from Chabad, "The Jewish Woman."
This story relates to Parshat Shelach which gives an insight regarding perception.

A curious eighteen-month-old was once playing with a nickel, and started to choke on it. 
His four-year-old brother observed how their frantic mother administered the Heimlich maneuver 
in a desperate attempt to pump the nickel out. Their father hurried to dial for an ambulance, 
but to everyone?s great relief, the nickel miraculously came out. The next morning, the four-year-old 
approached his mother with his blue eyes misting, and a serious expression on his face. 
He said, ?Don?t worry, Mommy, I don?t mind giving up candy, or any other treats. I promise not to ask 
for money ever again.?  
His mother was perplexed, and wondered what prompted him to make such a strange statement.
He explained, ?I saw how worried you were about getting back that nickel?that you pressed on the baby?s stomach, 
and Daddy immediately called for an ambulance. So don?t worry, I won?t ever ask you for money again!?

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http://matzav.com/new-rulings-from-rav-moshe-feinstein-ztl
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 From http://tinyurl.com/ke22grf

Esther Rubinstein ( 1881-1924) was born in a small town in the
Mariampol district of Lithuania. 1 She was the daughter of the Gaon R.
Hayyim Yirmiyahu Flensberg ( d. 1914 ), who would later become
famous as the Chief Rabbi of Shaki in Lithuania. He was the author of
many works on Jewish law, philosophy, and aggadah.

   As the only daughter of the Chief Rabbi, she was taught (by him)
Bible, rabbm1c literature, and Jewish philosophy. She mastered Jewish 
literature
and would often startle audiences by reciting passages from the
Talmud by heart. Tutors were hired to teach the precocious young girl
European languages and literature. In 1905, she married Rabbi Isaac
Rubinstein, a graduate of the Volozhin, Slabodka, and Slutzk yeshivot.
When he was appointed "Crown'' rabbi of Vilna in 1910 (after receiving
the approval of R. Hayyim Ozer Grodzenski), Esther and her husband
moved to Vilna, where they became leaders of the Jewish community.
Esther was a Jewish educator, social worker, and activist. She founded
several Jewish schools for girls, one of which - after her death - was
named the Esther Rubinstein School for Girls. She was a religious
Zionist_leader who lectured widely on the central role women must play in
reclaiming the land of Israel. She was an advocate of women's suffrage,
and published widely on the subject. She wrote and lectured in
flawless Hebrew. During \Vorld \Var I, she ran soup kitchens and other
social agencies on behalf of the needy.

<Snip>

Rabbi Yehiel Yaakov Weinberg ( 1884-1966 ), a graduate of the Slabodka
Yeshiva, served as the last Rosh Yeshiva of the Hildesheimer Rabbinical
Seminary.7 His She'elot u-Teshuvot Seridei Esh (Jerusalem, 1961-69, four
volumes) is one of the great classics of twentieth century rabbinic literature.
 From 1906 to 1913 he served as Chief Rabbi of Pilvishki (southwest
of Kovno, and near Shaki). Thus, he was on intimate terms with
members of Esther Rubinstein's family, many of whom resided in
Pilvishki and Shaki.  R. Weinberg's eulogy, presented here in English
translation, originally appeared in Hebrew in the 1926 memorial volume
in honor of Esther Rubinstein.

See the above URL for more about this remarkable woman and for Rav 
Weinberg's eulogy.

YL
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After the cheit hameraglim Hashem tells Moshe that he wants to destroy the
Jewish people. Moshe then davens to Hashem and says, if you destroy the
Jewish people the goyim will say that you didn't have enough strength to
bring the Jewish people into the Land of Israel.

Why does Moshe make a logical argument to hashem? Did he think he would
persuade Hashem with his logic?

There is a general question as to why we daven. After all, Hashem is
omniscient and therefore he doesn't need us to tell him what we need and
Hashem is perfect so we aren't going to change his mind. The
Rishonim/Acharonim give various answers such as, Tefilla is for us to
become closer to Hashem and/or to become better/different people or that
Hashem set up the world (for whatever reason) that we need to daven for
things. In any case, none of these explain why a person would make logical
arguments with Hashem. They don't seem to serve any person when davening to
Hashem.
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In the next few years we are going to have a big problem with electronic
devices. Soon it will be very hard to find anything that doesn't have some
kind of electronic sensor on it. If you go to a hotel you can see some of
them, for example:
    Electronic keys
    Motion sensors which shut off the lights and air conditioning if
        there is no movement
    Faucets that go on and off based on motion sensors
    Toilets with sensors
    Automatic doors
    Security cameras
    ...

Household appliances are changing as well. New refrigerators all have a
myriad of sensors that are put into action when you open the door etc.
Modern burglar alarms have sensors on the door and register when the door
opens even if the alarm is off. There are surveillance cameras everywhere
and even metal detectors are becoming commonplace (for example the Kotel).

The point is that electronics and sensors are becoming ubiquitous, they
are going to be everywhere. It will soon reach a point that we will not
be able to do anything without causing some reaction in some sensor.

If we just continue saying that electricity/electronics is assur we will
either not be able to do anything on Shabbos or have to become Amish.

On that note, I have to say I don't understand how so many people go
away for Pesach and other Yomim Tovim to hotels. Every hotel that I have
stayed at in the Western world (except Israel) in the past few years has
had only electronic door locks. How do people get into their rooms on
Yom Tov? What about the air conditioning system sensors? Amira L'Nochri
would seem to apply here do you can't just ask a goy either.

[Email #2. -micha]

Just to followup my previous comment, someone posted on Areivim about the
installation of electronic water meters in Toronto. It is patently clear
that this will happen in every big Western city (New York, LA, Chicago,
etc.) in the next few years. According to many of the Charedi poskim (see
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zE7Naj8WARk/UE8VGqtY
cDI/AAAAAAAAAZw/tR51Yc9TBvw/s1600/water-meter.jpg)
these are absolutely prohibited to use on Shabbos because of electricity
on Shabbos.

What will the Jews in Chutz Laaretz do? Are they going to stop using
running water on Shabbos? Are we going to stop using all technology
(refrigerators, air conditioners etc.) on Shabbos?

http://www.israelikitchen.com/dairy/how-to-culture-kefir-at-home/
someone kindly explain to me how the 4th generation product becomes kosher.
and would it then be cholov yisroel?
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On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 03:53:29PM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
: In the next few years we are going to have a big problem with electronic
: devices. Soon it will be very hard to find anything that doesn't have some
: kind of electronic sensor on it. If you go to a hotel...
: Household appliances are changing as well. New refrigerators...
: Modern burglar alarms have sensors on the door ... There are
: surveillance cameras everywhere and even metal detectors are becoming
: commonplace (for example the Kotel).
: 
:                        .... It will soon reach a point that we will not
: be able to do anything without causing some reaction in some sensor.
: 
: If we just continue saying that electricity/electronics is assur we will
: either not be able to do anything on Shabbos or have to become Amish.

The Sanhedrin will deal with it. Complete with the power to modify some
of the dinim derabanan to balance oneg Shabbos and uvda dechol for the
new reality.

If the Sanhedrin isn't reconstituted 115 years after the restoration of
Jewish autonomy in EY, maybe we need to be forced to live like the
Amish.

...
: Just to followup my previous comment, someone posted on Areivim about the
: installation of electronic water meters in Toronto. It is patently clear
: that this will happen in every big Western city (New York, LA, Chicago,
: etc.) in the next few years. According to many of the Charedi poskim (see
: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zE7Naj8WARk/UE8V
: GqtYcDI/AAAAAAAAAZw/tR51Yc9TBvw/s1600/water-meter.jpg)
: these are absolutely prohibited to use on Shabbos because of electricity
: on Shabbos.
: 
: What will the Jews in Chutz Laaretz do?...

I don't think those Israeli chareidi poseqim are sufficiently aligned
with the American versions of chareidi, never mind MO, to assume their
pesaq would be the one we follow.

The Star-K negotiated a solution with the proper authorities in Baltimore
to allow an option that does not defy halakhah as they see it. According
to http://baltimorejewishlife.com/news/print.php?ARTICLE_ID=8190 , their
requirements are:

    + Meters may not feature an electronic display that is always visible
      and changes as a result of water usage. Concealing such a display
      with an obstructing material does not satisfy this requirement.

    + Electronic displays that remain blank until activated with a switch
      are compliant.

    + Full time readable displays are limited to dials or numbers on a
      wheel that are mechanically powered by a water turbine.

    + Information may be stored internally in electronic format provided
      that water usage does not activate any electrically powered
      indicators.

(Warning: That web page was made before talks were complete, so it
doesn't say the Star-K succeeded. It was just a good page for their
halakhic perspective on what makes a meter mutar.)

#3 is interesting. Because it discusses two nearly identical outcomes --
"dials or numbers on a wheel that are mechanically powered by a water
turbine", vs ones that aren't "mechanically powered by a water turbine".
What would R Asher Weiss say? How is one a more "significant action"
than the other? Not in outcome.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life is a stage and we are the actors,
mi...@aishdas.org        but only some of us have the script.
http://www.aishdas.org               - Rav Menachem Nissel
Fax: (270) 514-1507

See my responses inline to R' Micha Bergers comments:

"The Sanhedrin will deal with it. Complete with the power to modify some
of the dinim derabanan to balance oneg Shabbos and uvda dechol for the
new reality."

Halevai that that should happen however, unfortunately, I think that we
need to plan for the worst that there will be no Sanhedrin.

"I don't think those Israeli chareidi poseqim are sufficiently aligned with
the American versions of chareidi, never mind MO, to assume their pesaq
would be the one we follow. "

I agree with your point that they aren't aligned but the fact is that the
American Charedi poskim are almost completely subservient to the Israeli
poskim nowadays (just take a look at the statements coming from the
American Moetzes about just about any issue).

"The Star-K negotiated a solution with the proper authorities in Baltimore
to allow an option that does not defy halakhah as they see it."

That is quite surprising but great, but I fear that Baltimore is a unique
situation which will not be duplicated in most other places certainly not
in smaller Jewish communities or in communities where there is little unity.

"#3 is interesting. Because it discusses two nearly identical outcomes --
"dials or numbers on a wheel that are mechanically powered by a water
turbine", vs ones that aren't "mechanically powered by a water turbine".
What would R Asher Weiss say? How is one a more "significant action"
than the other? Not in outcome."

To the best of my knowledge that is how all mechanical water meters work
today, the flow of the water turns the dials or numbers. I have not heard
of any poskim who have any problems with mechanical water meters.
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Does anyone know is there is a teshuva on using an induction stove on
Yom tov?

Thanks,
Liron


-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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