Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 152

Fri, 23 Aug 2013

• 1. Chilul Hasheim, Mitzvos and Aveiros (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Chilul Hasheim, Mitzvos and Aveiros (saul newman)
• 4. Re: Chilul Hasheim, Mitzvos and Aveiros (Micha Berger)
• 5. Why does it matter who blows the shofar? (Joe Slater)
• 6. Re: Even veAven (Kenneth Miller)
• 7. Of Elul, L'David, and Golems (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Chilul Hasheim, Mitzvos and Aveiros (saul newman)
• 9. test tube meat (M Cohen)
• 10. kibud av ve-em (Eli Turkel)
• 11. kiddush on Shabbat&YK (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: kibud av ve-em (Rich, Joel)

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 2:21pm -0700, R Saul Newman replied to something
I wrote on Areivim:
:>                            .... A qiddush hasheim requires someone doing
:> Hashem's Will and thereby attracting people to it. A person can't make
:> a qiddush hasheim by committing an issur.

: and the converse, also true , one can't commit a chillul hashem by doing a
: mitzva...

By fulfilling a chiyuv or avoiding an issur, yes. But is it truly
impossible for someone to commit a chilul hasheim for doing a
non-mandatory or conditionally obligatory mitzvah when the condition
could have been avoided at no spiritual loss?

What about chumeros? Commiting to a chumerah is a positive thing, and
following through, a mitzvah. But are you asserting it's impossible
to cause a chilul hasheim for choosing that chumerah over observers'
impression of Hashem and His Torah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are what we repeatedly do.
mi...@aishdas.org        Thus excellence is not an event,
http://www.aishdas.org   but a habit.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Aristotle

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:17:05AM -0600, R Daniel M. Israel wrote:
: But none of this is loshon of "loves us more."

Leiah is the senu'ah. Either we say that Yaaqov avinu actually hated
her, or that the Tanakh's emotional language is inherently relative,
not absolute.

Chaviv adam followed by chaviv Yisrael for something not true of other
Adam does imply that we are more chavivin. Or to be really accurate,
the corporate entity.

Which leads me to a new notion.... Naniach that Hashem acts toward all
people equally in a manner that humans would interpret as demonstrating
love. However, there is also actions toward the Jewish People as a unit
that people would anthropomorphise as being loving which have no parallel
toward other Peoples.

And thus, we as cells of that national body are subject to more (actions
that look like) love.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
mi...@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> By fulfilling a chiyuv or avoiding an issur, yes. But is it truly
> impossible for someone to commit a chilul hasheim for doing a
> non-mandatory or conditionally obligatory mitzvah when the condition
> could have been avoided at no spiritual loss?
> What about chumeros? ...

No. It has been previously pointed out on one or both of the lists,
that regardless of the revulsion a mitzva causes in either the eyes of
jews/goyim, it can't be a chillul hashem by definition.... But that
such acts cause great revulsion/hate for jews/Hasem/certain sects of
jews is an undeniable fact -- so maybe it's a paradox.

It must be, since the tora promises that others will see you and fear
you as a consequence of your mitzva performance, there must be something
lacking in our avoda....

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 02:46:29PM -0700, saul newman wrote:
: No. It has been previously pointed out on one or both of the lists,
: that regardless of the revulsion a mitzva causes in either the eyes of
: jews/goyim, it can't be a chillul hashem by definition...

This was asserted, not proven from sources. By taking it as a given
we're presuming our conclusion.

...
: It must be, since the tora promises that others will see you and fear
: you as a consequence of your mitzva performance, there must be something
: lacking in our avoda....

(Nearly?) every chumerah in one area is also a qulah in another. And if
the qulah is greater than the chumera, following the stringency is not
doing Hashem's Will. In our case, if one can avoid alienating others
from Torah because one refuses to avoid an opportunity to do something
non-mandatory, the action could be a net minus on Hashem's "scale" --
and a chilul hasheim.

I'm not sure, that's why my previous post had more question marks than
periods.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. 
mi...@aishdas.org        "I want to do it." - is weak. 
http://www.aishdas.org   "I am doing it." - that is the right way.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk

R Z Sero wrote:

> The mitzvah is to hear, rather than to blow.  Lishmoa` kol shofar, not
> liskoa` bashofar.  [...] Since this is so, why is it that one can't be
> yotzei if the blower is not obligated in the mitzvah?
>

We need to hear the cry of a child, but it makes a difference whether it's
our child (or indeed a child at all). Trumpets summon us to war, but it
makes a difference whether it's blown by a watchman or just some random
trumpeter. The same goes for other similar sounds: it's not just the noise,
but the identity of the person making it.

Joe Slater
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R' Micha Berger wrote:

> I would think the question of whether even va'aven applies
> to time would depend on whether we classify time measurers
> (clocks / watches) as of the same kind as weight measurers
> (scales) and volume measurers (measuring cups, etc...)
> In terms of not wanting to even own something someone else
> could use to cheat in business, a dishonest watch could be
> used for clocking in late or clocking out early.

This is possible, but unlikely, since the same timepiece would usually be
used for both the starting and ending. I think that a better example might
be deception about whether the time is being measured in long hours or
short hours. This could easily happen if there's confusion about shaos
zmanios vs. regular hours.

Maaseh she'hayah: I had been learning in my kollel for a short while (days
or weeks, I don't remember) when I found out that my monthly stipend was
paid on Rosh Chodesh. I was pleasantly surprised, given that the Jewish
months are slightly shorter than the civil months. But if I had heard this
not from my employer, but instead from my landlord, I would not have been
so pleased.

> And the pasuq itself only includes volume (eifah) and weight
> (even).
> So what about length? A dishonest ruler would allow someone
> to cheat when doing business in cloth, thread, rope...

If I'm reading it correctly, Choshen Mishpat 231:18 says not to measure
land at certain times, because the weather may cause the measuring rope to
stretch or contract. This seems to answer that question quite explicitly.
But I do concede that volume, weight and length are all tangible, while
time is not, and might not be included in this halacha.

Another intangible unit might be currency. I know that there are many
teshuvos about loans in Israel, and whether or not they are paid back in
local currency, or whether the loan is linked to the dollar. The question
there is mainly about prohibited interest, but -- among those who allow the
loan to be tied to another currency -- I wonder if anyone speaks about the
importance of clarifying exactly which conversion rate is to be used.
Leaving this point vague would be very similar to vague units of time that
I mentioned above.

I noticed an interesting Torah Temimah (Devarim 21:185) on this pasuk,
which speak about these halachos in very modern "consumer protection"
terms. He explains that in the marketplace, the mashgichim do need to check
the weights and measures, but they do NOT check the prices. This is because
the consumer is at the mercy of the shopkeepers scales, but he is quite
capable of doing his own price comparisons. As long as there's full
disclosure about the prices, no one is fooling the customer in the way that
illegal scales would fool him. According to this, I'd think that units of
time and units of currency are totally exempt from these halachos, as long
as there is full disclosure about *which* units are being used.

Full disclosure, that's the key. If I come to work at 9 AM and leave at 5
PM, but the timeclock records it at 9:10 and 5:10, that's okay if the
payroll department cares only about the time worked. But it is *not* okay
if I'll get reprimanded for being late.

I'm still up in the air about what time to put on an invitation, and
whether there might be something wrong (at least on a personal,
spirit-of-the-law level) with setting one's wristwatch to another time.

Akiva Miller
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See http://new.ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4886

No. It has been previously pointed out on one or both of the lists,
: that regardless of the revulsion a mitzva causes in either the eyes of
: jews/goyim, it can't be a chillul hashem by definition...

This was asserted, not proven from sources. By taking it as a given
we're presuming our conclusion.


--------  you make  it  sound like it's an unreasonable assertion.  but how
could it be anyother way?
forget chumras---      if someone is grossed out by  let's say hilchot
niddah  or mishkav zachar----   straight biblical commandments ---  or
 mechiat amalek/7 amim--again stragiht biblical commandment--->  what could
you say, that there is a hava amina that the tora itself is a chilul
hashem??             it must be  that  chillul hashem is not in the eyes of
scoffers/atheists  etc    it has to be  in some lesser  group....


On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 02:46:29PM -0700, saul newman wrote:
> : No. It has been previously pointed out on one or both of the lists,
> : that regardless of the revulsion a mitzva causes in either the eyes of
> : jews/goyim, it can't be a chillul hashem by definition...
>
> This was asserted, not proven from sources. By taking it as a given
> we're presuming our conclusion.
>
> ...
> : It must be, since the tora promises that others will see you and fear
> : you as a consequence of your mitzva performance, there must be something
> : lacking in our avoda....
>
> (Nearly?) every chumerah in one area is also a qulah in another. And if
> the qulah is greater than the chumera, following the stringency is not
> doing Hashem's Will. In our case, if one can avoid alienating others
> from Torah because one refuses to avoid an opportunity to do something
> non-mandatory, the action could be a net minus on Hashem's "scale" --
> and a chilul hasheim.
>
> I'm not sure, that's why my previous post had more question marks than
> periods.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive.
> mi...@aishdas.org        "I want to do it." - is weak.
> http://www.aishdas.org   "I am doing it." - that is the right way.
> Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk
>
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Although originally I thought it pashut that it would be considered
fleishic, see

http://www.cor.ca/view/464:2/cor_statement_on_kosher_status_of_testtube_meat
.html

 

.. This new discovery raises a few interesting halachik issues. Since the
original meat cells are extracted from an animal, the animal would have to
be a kosher one, and killed in accordance with Jewish law (shechita). In
addition, extracting cells from a live animal could be problematic because
of the prohibition of "basar min a chai" taking a piece of meat from an
animal that is still living. 

 

Finally, it could be argued that, similar to kosher beef gelatin, the "test
tube meat" could be considered pareve. Of course these are only preliminary
considerations and when the time comes, COR's rabbis will study the issue in
depth and develop an official position. In the meantime, maybe the
scientists should start working on test tube herring - wouldn't that be
something?

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I was recently learning hilchot kibud av ve-em in our weekly halacha shiur.
It seems theo me that at least it my circles it is virtually impossible for
any modern teenager to keep these halachot
some examples

ROY (Yabea Ober)
One cannot ask ones mother or father to cook food for them or to bring in
food or drink even after asking mechila

R Kareliz (Chut Shani)
1, If the parents are going to a store the child cannot ask them to buy
things for them unless there is no way for the child to buy it themselves.
The child can hint as long as the father is not a talmod chacham
2. One cannot ask ones parents to turn off the lights in the room or to
bring a book (again it is allowed by hinting as long as the father is not a
TC)
3. One cannot ask ones parents to pass the salt - only hint by asking "Is
there salt at the end of the table?"

A separate question: There is a halcha of kavod for the edlest sibling
(machloket if for all the older siblings). This seems to be very dangerous
for 2 teenagers relatively close in age.
I could just see my eldest telling her brother a year younger that he has
to give her kavod.
They fought enough as it is.
There is a discussion if kavod of the older brother is because of the
parents or independent.
I was once told that if it because of the parents they can override that
kavod for fighting siblings. If it is independent they are stuck

Any ideas for a modern family with teenagers?
We have discussed many times on this list teenagers going OTD. These
halachot might be an extra wedge for kids already having problems. It seems
the situation is even worse when the father is a TC. In many cases mechila
doesnt seem to help.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I found a 5 page teshuva of Rav Stern on the possible requirement of
someone on infusion to make Kiddush. In the process he also deals with the
question of kiddush on YK that falls on shabbat.

He takes for granted that the Torah obligation can be fulfilled with words
and so the only question is on the rabbinic level.
Hence, he answers that the rabbinic requirement to make kiddush friday
night was never enacted when it fell on YK. However, he brings a RID who
says that someone who is not eating a meal doesnt make kiddush and
therefore one doesnt make kiddush on shabbat-YK.
The Pri Chadash states that someone who has no wine or bread is not
required to make kiddush as he has already fulfilled his torah obligation
in davening.

Howver, birche yosef brings from R. Molcho that someone who is stranded in
the desert on shabbat without food has to say kiddush even though he has
davened maariv. Sefer Habatim explains that someone who will not eat friday
night makes kiddush on wine even though he wont have kiddush at a meal
(makom seudah)
Meiri already brings a mchloket on that. R Stern concludes that even
according to those opinions one doesnt need a meal but one does need wine.

skipping the rest of the discussion he concludes that one on infusion is
exempt from kiddush but if possible should hear from others.

BTW he brings a common minhag to make birkhat hamazon on the cup of wine at
seudah shlishit even though they dont drink the wine. He says that if they
drink from the cup after havdala there is a basis. However, if they pour
the wine back into the bottle he doesnt understand what one accomplishes.
He does bring that R. Wosner justifies the minhag but he disagrees.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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. In many cases mechila doesnt seem to help.
Eli Turkel
========================================
So what of a case where an older grandfather tells his child who is
juggling the responsibilities of working, learning, raising children etc.
to please ask him to do any minor errands, research etc. so that the child
can focus on what both the grandfather and father believe to be the higher
priorities? Is the offering sufficient to overcome those sources you
quoted? Does the grandparent have to articulate this offer ? If so, how
often?
KVCT
Joel Rich
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