Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 164

Tue, 17 Sep 2013

• 1. Hamelech Hakadosh - during the year (Kenneth Miller)
• 2. Re: Eating = Hefsek? (Michael Kopinsky)
• 3. Re: Eating = Hefsek? (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. Re: Eating = Hefsek? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Eating = Hefsek? (Michael Kopinsky)
• 6. Re: Eating = Hefsek? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Eating = Hefsek? (Zev Sero)
• 8. shma kolenu (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: shma kolenu (Zev Sero)
• 10. is it gezel? (saul newman)
• 11. Re: is it gezel? (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: is it gezel? (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Perpendicular schach (Marty Bluke)
• 14. Re: www.crcweb.org/SchachMatFencing2013.pdf (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? (Prof. Levine)
• 16. Re: Perpendicular schach (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Eating = Hefsek? (Akiva Blum)
• 18. Re: Ben Noach legal systems (was: Abortion is not Murder?) (Yonatan Kaganoff)

In the publication "Rosh Hashanah To-Go - 5773", (available at http://www.yutorah.org/tog
o/roshhashana/) Rabbi Benzion Scheinfeld has an article titled "The
Enigma of the Prayer Insertions of Aseret Yemai Teshuvah". On the last
page, in the paragraph "Interestingly enough", he makes the following
comment about the third bracha of the Amidah:

> ... if after Yom Kippur one uses Hamelech in place
> of Hakel, the tefillah is equally invalid.

I have been unable to find a source to either confirm or contradict this.
Does anyone know of a source which speaks of this situation, i.e., if one
says "HaMelech Hakadosh" at a time OTHER than the Aseres Ymei Teshuva?

Akiva Miller

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On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Moshe Y. Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is eating a hefsek? For example, I make a berachah on a piece of cake, and
> then start davening maariv. As I?m davening, I stop every so often and take
> another bite. (Forgetting the kavod hatefillah aspect ? this is a
> hypothetical.) Is the eating a hefsek in my birchos krias Shema?
>
Related question - What about drinking? I've seen chazzanim on RH have a
cup of tea with them at the bima that they sip from every so often. I will
occasionally sip coffee throughout pesukei d'zimrah or birchos krias shma
so that I can be awake for Shmone Esrei.

KT,
Michael
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R' Moshe Y. Gluck asked about someone who eats (a food that he already said
the Bracha Rishona on) during Birchos Krias Shema, whether it is a hefsek
similar to talking.

I've long wondered about a similar scenario: After Kiddush, and after
Netilas Yadayim, we've returned to the table and are waiting for others to
be seated. Can I drink more wine at this point?

Akiva Miller




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On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:25:25AM -0400, Michael Kopinsky wrote:
: On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Moshe Y. Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> Is eating a hefsek? ..

: Related question - What about drinking? I've seen chazzanim on RH have a
: cup of tea with them at the bima that they sip from every so often..

While related, they're very different questions. The Chazan is presumably
drinking in order to enable davening. Since it's directly for the purpose
of davening, it's much easier to argue it's not a hefseiq.

For reasons much of the chrevrah know, I bring tea with me to shul every
Shabbos and Yom Tov. (Actually, I bring tea with me to most places.) I
would be in pain trying to say all those words (even just shomei'ah
le'azni) and unable to daven without it. My LOR said it's fine; but it
might be an ein danin es ha'efshar mishe'i efshar situation to extrapolate
from my case to the typical healthy chazan.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
mi...@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> For reasons much of the chrevrah know, I bring tea with me to shul every
> Shabbos and Yom Tov. (Actually, I bring tea with me to most places.) I
> would be in pain trying to say all those words (even just shomei'ah
> le'azni) and unable to daven without it. My LOR said it's fine; but it
> might be an ein danin es ha'efshar mishe'i efshar situation to extrapolate
> from my case to the typical healthy chazan.
>

When are you allowed to drink? Even in the middle of shemoneh esrei?

KT,
Michael
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On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 11:35:31AM -0400, Michael Kopinsky wrote:
:> For reasons much of the chrevrah know, I bring tea with me to shul every
:> Shabbos and Yom Tov...

: When are you allowed to drink? Even in the middle of shemoneh esrei?

Well, since it's rare that silent Shemoneh Esrei alone is enough to
generate actual pain, I don't drink then. I therefore don't recall the
guidelines in this regard (as they're unused) exactly enough to repeat
them here. It just would feel to strange not to hold out. After all,
I'm not drinking non-stop, 24x7!

But where it really comes up: my LOR did tell me I could choose to
sing Keil Adon and Qedushah along with the chazan even if it makes it
likely I would need to drink before Shema or during Chazaras haShatz
(respectively).

I also think that given the commonality of Chazanim sipping water to
make it through Yamim Noraim, one would have to ask why rabbanim hadn't
made a big deal about it before now -- at least, none that I heard of.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

On 16/09/2013 12:56 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I also think that given the commonality of Chazanim sipping water to
> make it through Yamim Noraim, one would have to ask why rabbanim hadn't
> made a big deal about it before now -- at least, none that I heard of.

Is it really that common?  This is the first I've heard of it.  Not that
that proves anything, of course.  I've davened in several places, but hardly
a representative sample -- nobody can do that in a lifetime, even if they
never repeat themselves.  But I'm astonished that it would be common.
If a chazan can't make it through Rosh Hashana musaf without water, how
does he make it through Yom Kippur?

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

> Since in shma kolenu it is in plural it should not be said by the
> entire congrgation out loud. Instead we say that one phrase quietly
> so it is similar to being in singular

So why not say it in the singular?  We change it to the plural davka so
that it refers to all of us collectively; so why not say it aloud? >>>

I am just quoting
see ketze hamateh in mateh ephraim on Hebrewbooks.org
Note not all versions have ketzeh hamateh I used the second on the list

It is in siman 582 seif katan 40 in ketzeh hamateh

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 16/09/2013 1:19 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>>> Since in shma kolenu it is in plural it should not be said by the
>>> entire congrgation out loud. Instead we say that one phrase quietly
>>> so it is similar to being in singular

>> So why not say it in the singular?  We change it to the plural davka so
>> that it refers to all of us collectively; so why not say it aloud? >>>

> I am just quoting
> see ketze hamateh in mateh ephraim on Hebrewbooks.org
> Note not all versions have ketzeh hamateh I used the second on the list
> It is in siman 582 seif katan 40 in ketzeh hamateh

Thank you, but I don't understand what he's saying.

1. He starts out by misquoting the Shulchan Aruch.  He quotes the SA that
if a pasuk is written in the singular, it's permitted *in public* to change
it to the plural in a way of tefillah.  The key word in that quote, "in
public", does not appear there, and on the contrary, the whole point of the
SA there is that it's permitted for an *individual* to change a singular
pasuk to plural, so long as he does it derech tefillah and doesn't change
an entire mizmor.

2. Having said that it's permitted in public, he then says that changing
this pasuk "would be permitted", nevertheless each one says it quietly, so
we're not really a tzibur but just a set of individuals.  How does that
make it better, it would seem, given his premise, that it would make it
worse.  So what exactly is he saying.

3. Then he says we are worried lechatchila about changing it, since it's
only a minhag and not an explicit takanah of Chazal.  But then how is it
different from the other pesukim in that paragraph, that are also changed
from singular to plural, and are said aloud?  Is he saying that those
pesukim are a takanas Chazal but Yihyu leratzon is only a minhag?!


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

http://onegshabbat.blogspot.co.il/2013/09/blog-post_15.html

to remove  an unauthorized  ad?   and what about the described issur of
where this ad is placed?
does the rental money become then treife gelt?
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On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 03:10:09PM -0700, saul newman wrote:
: does the rental money become then treife gelt?

Every year I mention the problem of buying an esrog from someone who
offers a better price if you pay in cash. Last year I was able to shift
from "li nir'eh it's a problem". RHSchachter reports that according top
RJBSoloveitchik, helping the seller evade taxes in this way is lifnei iver
(deOraisa, not "just" the derabbanan of mesayeia) and THE ESROG IS PASUL.

Here, it would depend on how far from taxation you hold dina demalkhusa
extends. No?

Which means that taking down the ad is problematic, as you are in
a weird situation (discussed here in the past) where you would be
preventing something that even if your poseiq holds is an aveirah,
it's not open-and-shut that every poseiq would.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Eliot

On 16/09/2013 6:10 PM, saul newman wrote:
> http://onegshabbat.blogspot.co.il/2013/09/blog-post_15.html
>
> to remove  an unauthorized  ad?

If it's litter, then you're doing the public a service by cleaning up.
And of course the bus station cleaning staff have every right to remove
it, since that's their job.


>  and what about the described issur of
> where this ad is placed?

The described issur is nonsense.  There's no "bal tashchis" issue.
But uglifying a window that everyone has to look at is at least a
public disservice.

Also, I very much doubt the operator of the bus station allows ads to
be stuck to the window, and the absence of other ads implies that it
enforces this policy (there can't be just one person who thinks it's
an appropriate place to advertise).


> does the rental money become then treife gelt?

Of course not.  Why would it be?  Why would the manner of advertising,
however problematic, affect the kashrus of any resulting transaction
between a willing tenant and a willing letter?


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

I have never understood the idea of putting the schach on wooden sticks
which rest on something that is mekabel tumah (e.g. metal) for the
following reason. The wood that is used to hold up the schach is in and of
itself kosher schach (otherwise it can't be used as a maamid)  therefore,
why should we consider the wood a maamid of the schach , rather it should
just be considered schach itself which is resting on the metal. R' Tzvi
Pesach Frank among others points this out and I have not seen a good answer
for this claim.
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From the Gush VBM:


The Poskim, however, raise two issues concerning the use of mats for sekhakh:
 
1-    Mats comprised of bamboo reeds or wood strips held together must not
be woven together with a material which is mekabel tum'a or materials that
are not gidulo min ha-aretz, as these materials may not be used as sekhakh.
One should preferably tie the reeds together with wooden fibers, flask, or
other natural materials that were not processed. Some (R. Ovadya Yosef,
Yechavveh Da'at 1:64; see Piskei Teshuvot 629:6).even permit using
processed fibers produced from gidulei karka, as they are only invalid for
sekhakh mi-derabbanan (Rambam, Hilkhot Sukka 5:6). See R. Yehuda Paris,
"Keshirat Sekhakh La-Netzach al yedei Chutei Barzel," Techumin 15, who
argues for the permissibility of tying down sekhakh with copper wire. 
2-    R. Binyanim Zilber (1917-2008), in his Responsa Az Nidberu (2:66)
cites the view of R. Yosef Shalom Elyashiv (b.1910), who prohibits using
these mats. He believes that since the mats of reeds or strips are so
closely and strongly fastened together, using these mats violates the
Rabbinic prohibition of using boards over four tefachim wide, known as
gezeirat tikra, as described above. He finds precedent for this in the view
of the Rashba cited above (and by the Beit Yosef 629), who reports that
some prohibit using narrow boards which are nailed together and are wider
than four tefachim. R. Eliezer Yehuda Waldenberg (1916-2006) concurs in his
Tzitz Eliezer (10:29). 
 
Most Poskim (R. Binyamin Zilber (ibid.); R. Ovadya Yosef, Chazon Ovadya p.
28); R. Shmuel Wosner (b.1913), Shevet Ha-Levi 6:74; R. Shlomo Zalman
Auerbach, Halikhot Shlomo p. 128) disagree, and permit using mats produced
and sold specifically to be used as sekhakh. Some argue that these mats are
thin and flexible, and therefore do not resemble the planks mentioned by
the Rashba. Others note that these mats are generally made from bamboo
reeds and not wooden planks, and therefore should not be included in the
enactment of gezeirat tikra. 
-------------------------------------------



GT
Joel Rich
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 From http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5269

Different minhagim come to the forefront this time of year, and 
growing up spending many a Yom Tov among Jews of all stripes, in 
various kosher hotels, makes this author uniquely suited to address 
this annual Sukkos "battle". Not the proper order of nanuim with the 
Lulav and Esrog, nor the correct order of the Ushpizin. Rather, I'm 
referring to sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an 
obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted?

See the above URL for more.  YL
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On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 08:30:22AM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
: I have never understood the idea of putting the schach on wooden sticks
: which rest on something that is mekabel tumah (e.g. metal) for the
: following reason. The wood that is used to hold up the schach is in and of
: itself kosher schach (otherwise it can't be used as a maamid)...

Until you put it on a maamid that is meqabel tum'ah. Then it becomes
invalid for sekhakh, but still valid as a maamid.

Your sevara is that of the CI's chumerah (in OC 143:3) that nothing in
the chain of support from the ground to the sekhakh should be a davar
shemeqabel tum'ah. But iqar hadin (unless, perhaps you're living in Benei
Beraq or otherwise in a community of the CI's talmidim) is like the SA
(OC 629:8).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org
[mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Moshe Y. Gluck
Sent: Monday, 16 September, 2013 10:44 AM



 

Is eating a hefsek? For example, I make a berachah on a piece of cake, and
then start davening maariv. As I'm davening, I stop every so often and take
another bite. (Forgetting the kavod hatefillah aspect - this is a
hypothetical.) Is the eating a hefsek in my birchos krias Shema?

 

 

See MB OH 209 s"k 8, that eating is not a hefsek between a bracha and
achila., though lechatchila could be different.

 

Akiva

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Aside from the question of how to read the Gemara in Sanhedrin and later
Rishonim there is the moral question.

I find it extremely disturbing that according to Judaism, a non-Jewish
legal system would be wrong unless it conformed exactly to the mandates of
Jewish law. If such would, it would be virtually impossible that any
non-Messianic non-Jewish legal system could be viewed as anything but
immoral/wrong.
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