Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 175

Mon, 14 Oct 2013

• 1. Re: lilshonosam/safah echas u'dvarim echadim (Micha Berger)
• 2. Lech Lecha (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 3. Re: Lech L'cha (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. Re: Lech L'cha (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Lech L'cha (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: change and tradition in Halacha (Kenneth Miller)
• 7. Re: Lech Lecha (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Lech L'cha (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Lech L'cha (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Lech Lecha (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Lech L'cha (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Lech L'cha (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Lech L'cha (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Lech L'cha (Lisa Liel)
• 15. Re: Lech L'cha (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: identity of Jews (Micha Berger)
• 17. Pasuk in Lech Lecha 17:19 (hankman)

On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 12:04:42AM +0000, shalomy...@comcast.net wrote:

: A question from Parashah Noach: 

: In Ch 10, we are told several times that Toldos Noach are listed 
: ...lilshonsam... 

: But, immediately following in Ch 11 we are told "Va'yhi col ha'aretz 
: safah echas u'dvarim echadim". 

Perhaps the difference inheres in lashon vs safah vs davar?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

All three examples don't require the Torah -- murder, adultery and
theft are among the 7 mitzvos benei Noach! So Hashem's examples had
nothing to do with whether or not they took His offer.

So the question still remains:  Why did He choose US?
Just forty days later, we were involved in idolatry.
We certainly didn't prove worthy.  And the gemara says
that 80% of the Jews died in Egypt. So why Hashem
choose the Jews??  

"How odd of G-d to pick the Jews,
How odd of the Jews, not to refuse"
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Cantor Wolberg asked:

> 1) Why did God choose Avraham to be the father of our people?
> In His interaction with Noah, the Torah praises Noah as a
> righteous man who walked with God. There is absolutely NOTHING
> said about Abraham other than God telling him to "GO." Noah,
> the drunkard, is praised and told to get ready for Armageddon
> and Abraham is given an immediate eviction notice!

Last week (Parshas Noach) Rabbi Jonathan Sacks (Emeritus Chief Rabbi of
Great Britain) had an interesting article titled "Righteousness is not
Leadership". The main point I got from that article was the contrast of how
outgoing Avraham was, and how much of a loner Noach was.

The short answer to your question might be: It's not so much that God chose
Avraham, as that Avraham worked on spreading the Word, so much so that he
*earned* the position that he was given.

You can read the whole article at http://www.rabbisacks.org/noah-5774-righteousness-is-not-leadership/

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
BlackBerry® Q10
See the evolution of the classic BlackBerry® Keyboard. Available now
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On 11/10/2013 10:05 AM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> Two questions have always bothered me:
> 1) Why did God choose Avraham to be the father of our people?
> [...]. There is absolutely NOTHING said about Abraham
> other than God telling him to "GO."

This is why we have medroshim explaining what had gone before, that there
had been many years (whether 35 or 72) of a relationship before Lech Lecha.
And of course according the Seder Olam the Bris Bein Habsarim had already
happened five years earlier, when Avram happened to be in Cenaan for some
reason of his own.


> 2) /Chazal's words [...] First He went to the descendants of Esav
> [...] A parent doesn't ask a child if he or she wants to obey the
> rules. A child is compelled to follow the rules. In addition the
> gemara (Shabbos 88A) says that God held the mountain over the head of
> the Jews and said 'If you accept the Torah, good; if not, here shall
> be your burial/.' /So what sense does it make that God gave the
> other//nation a choice but the Jews, not?>

That's the whole point.  The other nations are not His children.  He had
no wish to give them the Torah, and no intention of doing so.  The only
reason He offered it to them was so that when Moshiach comes and they are
judged for their misdeeds, they will not be able to claim that they were
only bad because they had no Torah.  So he gave them a opportunity to
express their refusal.   Imagine that you've found a buyer for your house,
but someone else has a right of first refusal; even if you know they don't
want it, you have to offer it to them and have them explicitly refuse it,
or else later when the value goes up and they change their mind they can
undo the sale.  Here too, when the nations claim that they were only bad
because they had no Torah, Hashem will replay the tape of them refusing it.
Then, as the gemara says, they will ask for another chance, and He will
give them the mitzvah of Sukkah, and they won't keep it, thus once again
demonstrating the justice of His choice of us over them.  But the choice
itself was made long before Matan Torah.


On 11/10/2013 11:15 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> This medrash is odd for two reasons:

> 1- It's bad kiruv to start with the person's hardest challenge. Change
> requires small incremental steps.

But the purpose wasn't kiruv, it was richuk.

Another example: an unsuitable boy is interested in your daughter, so you
inform him of her flaws, so he will realise that she's not for him and will
lose interest.  Whereas to a boy you think is suitable, you try to hide
anything that might make him think twice about the shiduch.

> 2- All three examples don't require the Torah -- murder, adultery and
> theft are among the 7 mitzvos benei Noach! So Hashem's examples had
> nothing to do with whether or not they took His offer.

All the more so.  "How can you support my daughter when you can't even
support yourself?"

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:20:51PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> That's the whole point.  The other nations are not His children...

Beni bekhori Yisrael. - Shemos 4:22

We are His firstborn, not His only child.

Which is why we're later called a "mamlekhes kohanim" -- in the pre-eigel
ideal, the bekhor is the kohein *for the others of the family*!

And I therefore disagree with the rest of your take. HQBH isn't trying
to dissuade non-children in this story, He is trying to show them why
they need to get His Truth via us as a priesthood caste rather than
more directly.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

Responding to the idea that Yom Tov Sheni Shel Galuyos is a source for minhagim, R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> There obviously is a difference between the gemara stating
> "minhag avoteinu b'yadeinu" and between applying that to
> every minhag that existed at some time. Besides "eino rainu
> eino raayah"

My understanding is that the source that minhagim in general are binding
(depending on what counts as a "minhag", of course) is the pasuk in
Mishlei, "Al Titosh Toras Imecha." Unfortunately, there's no Torah Temimah
on Mishlei. But maybe this will spark someone else's memory for further
research.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

On 11/10/2013 11:29 AM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> /All three examples don't require the Torah -- murder, adultery and
> theft are among the 7 mitzvos benei Noach! So Hashem's examples had
> nothing to do with whether or not they took His offer./
>
> So the question still remains:  Why did He choose *_US_*?

The Torah says it's because of the Avos.  Which would seem to mean because
of their deeds and commitment to Him.  But the Navi tells us that the choice
happened at a level at which "Esav was Yaacov's brother" i.e. they were
exactly the same and there was no reason at all why anyone would choose one
over the other, and yet "I loved Yaacov and hated Esav".   Because bechira
is higher than sechel.  There is no way for sechel to understand it.  As
Reb Micha likes to say, man is a rationalising animal.  We choose first and
then find a reason for it.   And we are reflections of Hashem; "from my flesh
I can see G-d".  All our natural traits are analogues to some aspect of Him.
His "bechira" is also higher than His "sechel".  So the ultimate answer is
that we can't explain it, it's just so.


> *"How odd of G-d to pick the Jews,*
> *How odd of the Jews, not to refuse"*

Trilby's original couplet was "How odd of G-d / to choose the Jews".
The reply attributed to Ogden Nash is "It wasn't odd / the Jews chose G-d".


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 11/10/2013 3:06 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:20:51PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> That's the whole point.  The other nations are not His children...

> Beni bekhori Yisrael. - Shemos 4:22
> We are His firstborn, not His only child.

Nowhere are other people referred to as His children.  I think "Bechori"
here must be seen as merely a superlative to "Beni", showing extra love.


> Which is why we're later called a "mamlekhes kohanim" -- in the pre-eigel
> ideal, the bekhor is the kohein *for the others of the family*!

Where did you get that?  The bechorim were the kohanim for the whole people.


> And I therefore disagree with the rest of your take. HQBH isn't trying
> to dissuade non-children in this story,

The context of the gemara from which it comes makes it clear what the
intent was.  He was merely depriving them of an excuse.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 03:11:13PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> And I therefore disagree with the rest of your take. HQBH isn't trying
>> to dissuade non-children in this story,
>
> The context of the gemara from which it comes makes it clear what the
> intent was.  He was merely depriving them of an excuse.

The Sifri, Devarim 343:2
<http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/vl/sifri-dvarim/sifri-dvarim01.pdf#page=359>.
I don't see the purported context, actually. Rather, the mashal continues,
Hashem was showing them they couldn't handle the load He needed carried.
Not that He didn't want them to. Therefore Hashem gave the load to us --
as an aid for them!

:-)BBii!
-Micha

jn Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 11:29:18AM -0400, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: So the question still remains:  Why did He choose US?
: Just forty days later, we were involved in idolatry.
: We certainly didn't prove worthy....

Well, if you like my little devar Torah, it's because we were willing
to take on the job of changing and completing creation of ourselves and
the world. Not that we were perfect at it, but we were willing to carry
the burden at all.

As is evidenced by Avram's desire to teach ethical monotheism to
the world, as contasted by Noach's focus on his own sanctity. (The
Chassidishe idiom is that Noach was a tzadiq in furs -- he kept warm by
wearing coats, rather than bothering to chop wood for a fire that would
keep others warm as well.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

On 11/10/2013 3:27 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> >The context of the gemara from which it comes makes it clear what the
>> >intent was.  He was merely depriving them of an excuse.

> The Sifri, Devarim 343:2

AZ 2b

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 03:35:53PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 11/10/2013 3:27 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>> >The context of the gemara from which it comes makes it clear what the
>>> >intent was.  He was merely depriving them of an excuse.
>
>> The Sifri, Devarim 343:2
>
> AZ 2b

Which is quoting the Sifri. And does not focus on depriving them of an
excuse but providing them with one: You find the 7 mitzvos hard enough,
you can't handle more. Just like the mashal of the dog and the donkey
in the Sifri's mashal.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

On 11/10/2013 4:01 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 10/11/2013 11:20 AM, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 11/10/2013 11:15 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>> This medrash is odd for two reasons:

>>> 1- It's bad kiruv to start with the person's hardest challenge. Change
>>> requires small incremental steps.

>> But the purpose wasn't kiruv, it was richuk.

>> Another example: an unsuitable boy is interested in your daughter, so you
>> inform him of her flaws, so he will realise that she's not for him and will
>> lose interest.  Whereas to a boy you think is suitable, you try to hide
>> anything that might make him think twice about the shiduch.

> The best example, I think, is potential converts. We do dissuade
> them, and if they can be dissuaded, we're better off without them
> anyway.

I thought of that, but it's not 100% the same.  There we *do* want converts,
but only ones that really want it. We haven't already decided the applicant
is unsuitable, we're testing his suitability.  And so we deliberately *don't*
exaggerate how bad it can be, we just try to be realistic, so that when he
encounters difficulties he won't feel that we cheated him, but we also emphasise
the good things, because really we do want him if he's suitable.  The halacha
is clear that we should take care *not* to frighten him away.

That's why I used the analogy of a case where you've already decided you
don't want the shiduch, but you're trying to make him see why he doesn't
want it either.


On 11/10/2013 4:25 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 03:35:53PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 11/10/2013 3:27 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>>> The context of the gemara from which it comes makes it clear what the
>>>> intent was.  He was merely depriving them of an excuse.

>>>>>The Sifri, Devarim 343:2

>>>AZ 2b

> Which is quoting the Sifri. And does not focus on depriving them of an
> excuse but providing them with one: You find the 7 mitzvos hard enough,
> you can't handle more. Just like the mashal of the dog and the donkey
> in the Sifri's mashal.

In the gemara the context is their being judged, and trying to give excuses,
and being rebuffed.  And the end is that when their claims are refuted and
the verdict against them is vindicated, Hashem laughs with joy.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to

On 10/11/2013 11:20 AM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 11/10/2013 11:15 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> This medrash is odd for two reasons:

>> 1- It's bad kiruv to start with the person's hardest challenge. Change
>> requires small incremental steps.

> But the purpose wasn't kiruv, it was richuk.

> Another example: an unsuitable boy is interested in your daughter, so you
> inform him of her flaws, so he will realise that she's not for him and will
> lose interest.  Whereas to a boy you think is suitable, you try to hide
> anything that might make him think twice about the shiduch.

The best example, I think, is potential converts.  We do dissuade them, 
and if they can be dissuaded, we're better off without them anyway.

On 10/11/2013 10:29 AM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> *"How odd of G-d to pick the Jews,*
> *How odd of the Jews, not to refuse"*

"It's not so odd;
The Jews chose God."

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 04:04:55PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>>>> The Sifri, Devarim 343:2

>>> AZ 2b

>> Which is quoting the Sifri. And does not focus on depriving them of an
>> excuse but providing them with one: You find the 7 mitzvos hard enough,
>> you can't handle more. Just like the mashal of the dog and the donkey
>> in the Sifri's mashal.

> In the gemara the context is their being judged, and trying to give excuses,
> and being rebuffed.  And the end is that when their claims are refuted and
> the verdict against them is vindicated, Hashem laughs with joy.

But that's not the only way to understand the gemara, not even the
cleanest. They just had their excuses dismissed. Now they argue that
Hashem didn't give them a chance and the gemara jumps back to maamad Har
Sinai and says, yes you did get a choice. I could have sent you Bil'am,
and you said "no".

Aside from being more straightforward in the gemara itself than your
reading in a motive that the gemara doesn't state, it places the gemara's
usage on the same page as the source it's taking the story from.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef

On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 05:06:36PM +0000, Kenneth Miller wrote:
: These answers are not contradictory in any way. He is of course still
: Jewish, and still has all the obligations pertaining thereunto...

RARakeffetR frequently tells the story of the time he had an epiphany
in the middle of shiur. In his role as activist for Soviet Jewry had a
case of a woman whose husband died without their having children. He had
a surviving brother back behind the Iron Curtain, who not only couldn't
reach Israel, he headed a kolkhoz -- a diehard believing Soviet.

The epiphany: There is a shituah dechuyah that Yisrael af al pi shechata
Yisrael hu is only a cheshash WRT qiddushin for which the gemara wants to
be machmir, and me'iqar hadin "harei hu ke'akum lokhol davar" (quoting
the Radbaz, shu"t 1:351). The Radbaz continues that even the qiddushin
is therefore derabbanan.

This allowed RARR to suggest to ROY to combine this shitah with other
senifim lehaqeil, and ROY did write a teshuvah to that effect.

But in any case, we hold that he is still Jewish. I'm just pointing out
that RAM's "of course" is overstating things.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Why does this promise by HaShem to Avrohom not make bechira for Yitzchok an
impossibility? It would be hard to imagine the fulfillment of the bris with
Yitzchok if he were cholila to turn out badly, as say Esau did. Rashi on
the spot points out that he was born a ?kadosh mibeten.? Could you imagine
? the three avos, Avrohom, Esau (ie., the OTD Yitzchok) and Yaakov? I
bounced this off a couple of people, some  wanted to use the Rambam?s
assertion that somehow HaShem?s knowledge of how one turns out is not a
stira to bechira as this knowledge is not machria and force particular
choices. However, I believe that the Rambam meant, that is only when this
knowledge remains only with HaShem alone, but not once it is revealed to
man and certainly not as here where it is an emphatic promise. Others
wanted to say that this was like a contract, with HaShem ready to keep His
end of the deal if Yitzchok kept his end of the contract (ie., being worthy
to be a party to the bris) but the lang
 uage in this pasuk shows no conditional language or requirement for Yitzchok to fulfill for the bris to be upheld.

Kol tuv

Chaim Manaster
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