Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 24

Tue, 11 Feb 2014

• 1. Re: Why does Moshe use logical arguments when davening to save Bnei Yisrael? (Lisa Liel)
• 2. Re: Recent Customs (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Why does Moshe use logical arguments when davening to save Bnei Yisrael? (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Doresh el hameisim [was: Why does Moshe use logical arguments] (T613K@aol.com)
• 5. Beruriah and tephillin (Chana Luntz)
• 6. sephardiot wearing tefillin (Eli Turkel)
• 7. yeshivish vs academic (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: Why does Moshe use logical arguments when davening to save Bnei Yisrael? (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: "This is the only Sidra from the beginning of Moshe's birth where his name is omitted" (Joshua Meisner)
• 10. Re: Why does Moshe use logical arguments when davening to save Bnei Yisrael? (Marty Bluke)
• 11. The man in the iron mask (M Cohen)
• 12. Re: Why does Moshe use logical arguments when davening to save Bnei Yisrael? (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Why does Moshe use logical arguments when davening to save Bnei Yisrael? (Lisa Liel)

On 2/10/2014 6:04 AM, Arie Folger wrote:
> RMBluke responded:
>> In any case that is not part of shemone esrei which is the main Tefilla.

> Eh, hmmm, vezokher 'hassdei avot umevi go-el livnei veneihem *lem'an 
> shemo* ...

> It's right at the beginning!

Not really.  We aren't saying, "Please do this l'maan shimcha". We're 
praising Him as One who does things "l'maan shemo".  Very different, IMO.


On 2/10/2014 9:23 AM, Zev Sero wrote:
>      How does that prevent them from getting closer to Hashem? Tzadikim
> ein lahem menucha, they are always moving higher and closer to Hashem.
> (Not that I'm accepting the basic premise that this is how tefillah works,
> but given that premise, I don't see how someone being dead invalidates it.)

> It's not as if this is some strange and unique "agada"; it's pretty basic
> to Jewish practise, going back at least to Kalev, that we do ask the 
> dead to pray for us.

According to the Midrash, which makes that a kind of circular argument.

Lisa

On 10/02/2014 2:23 PM, j...@m5.chicago.il.us wrote:
> A more correct (or, at any rate, a more complete) answer would be that
> Nitzavim was never a separate parasha until the recent custom arose of
> reading Vzoth Habbrakha on the second day of Shmini `Atzereth.

So when was it read, in those years when there is only one free Shabbos
between Rosh Hashana and Sukkos?

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

 
From: Marty Bluke  <marty.bl...@mail.gmail.com>

>>Yes but that just begs the  question, Hashem is all-knowing so he knows 
what
my motivation is without me  having to say it. What is the point of
vocalizing  it?<<





>>>>
 
 
 
This totally reminds me of the perennial man vs woman debate:
 
She:  You never tell me that you love me.
He:  What do you mean?  I told you the night we were  married.
 
She;  But that was seventeen years ago.  How do I know it's still  true?
He: I take out the garbage and fill your car with gas, don't I?  You  
already know how I feel, what more is to be gained by making me say it every  
five minutes?
 
She:  I just want to hear it.
He: You are so annoying.  I love you.  There, are you happy  now?  Now 
leave me alone and stop pestering me.
 
She:  But I want you to say it like you mean it.
 

--Toby Katz
..
=============


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From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Subject: Doresh el hameisim  [was: Why does Moshe use logical arguments when
davening to  save Bnei Yisrael? ]


>>It's not as if this is some strange and unique "agada"; it's  pretty basic
to Jewish practise, going back at least to Kalev, that we do ask  the dead 
to
pray for us.  The Zohar says that when the world needs rain,  we take a 
sefer
torah to the cemetery to inform the dead that we need help,  and they then 
go
to Chevron to inform the Avot, and they all pray for us and  it rains.
("Doresh el hameisim" doesn't mean people who have died, it means  resha'im,
who are "meisim" even while they're breathing.) <<

--  
Zev  Sero                
z...@sero.name          





>>>>
 
I am still in the year of aveilus for my mother, Sheindel bas Moshe Yechiel 
 a'h, whom I miss very much, and I sometimes talk to her.  I say, "Mommy,  
did you hear?  Mazal tov!  Shai is married three months already and  Yidel 
has a new grandson and Heshy has a new granddaughter.  Mommy, Naomi  and 
Shifra need shidduchim, is there any way you can pull some strings up  there?  
Mommy, I sold another copy of your book today and the lady who  bought a copy 
last week came to my Chumash shiur today and told me she loves  your book!  
Mommy, where are you now exactly?"
 
Before my son's wedding three months ago I went to Har Hamenuchos and left  
two wedding invitations there, one on my father's kever and one on my  
mother's.  I assumed they would both come even if I only gave one of  them an 
invitation, but I didn't want to show any favoritism towards one over  the 
other.  
 
I don't know what it means "doresh el hameisim"  -- I don't know what  
halachos apply, or what normative hashkafa is.  I don't know for sure that  my 
mother hears me when I talk to her.  I can't believe that it is assur  for me 
to talk to her though.  
 
But today a friend asked me which perakim of Tehillim to say at a kever and 
 I looked it up for her in the book *Mourning in Halacha* by R' Chaim 
Binyamin  Goldberg.   (For the record he says 33, 16, 17, 72, 91,104, and 130  
and spell out the person's name in 119.)  On pg 395 I found this:
 
--quote--
 
When one prays at the graves of one's parents, forefathers, and relatives,  
or at other graves, one should not direct their prayers to the deceased, 
nor  request anything from them.  One should pray only to the Holy One, 
Blessed  is He.  One should not direct one's efforts towards the deceased, so that 
 one will not be in the category of those who seek favors from the dead 
(doresh  el hameisim).   When one prays at the graves of tzaddikim, one should  
request of Hashem, Blessed is He, that He have mercy upon oneself through 
the  merit of the righteous ones who dwell in the dust.
 
--end quote--
 
There is a footnote giving as the source Ba'er Heitev  581:::17.   But the 
footnote then goes on:
 
 
--quote--
 
However, Gesher Hachaim writes:  "But many permit addressing the  deceased 
and saying to him: 'Be our representative and pray for us to Hashem,  
Blessed is He.'  Since one asks the deceased to pray to Hashem, Blessed is  He, 
this is not considered directing one's efforts towards the deceased  himself.  
It is like asking a living tzaddik to pray for one."   And see Responsa 
Maharam Shick (Orach Chaim 293).
 
--end quote--
 
To be honest until now I thought that doresh el hameisim really meant  
trying to find out the future or magically change the future by  consulting the 
dead in some way -- like reading the Rebbe's letters as your  daily 
horoscope.  But now I find that I have no clarity on the issue at  all.

--Toby  Katz
..
=============


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As a tangent I note that RMB wrote:

>because the Ari said the same thing about Beruriah choosing to wear
>tefillin -- and we know she had two sons (who die on > Shabbos while still
>boys r"l).

It is interesting that the Ari brings this (do you have a cite?), but it
would seem there is a much more straightforward reason why Beruriah would
have worn tephillin, her husband was Rabbi Meir, and Rabbi Meir (and Rabbi
Yehuda) held that tephillin is a positive mitzvah *not* dependent upon time
(ie all you guys should, according to them, be wearing your tephillin on
shabbas and yom tov as well) and that therefore women are obligated in this
mitzvah (Eruvin 96b).  So Beruriah would have worn tephillin because her
husband held that there was a chiyuv for her to do so.

We do not poskin like this, but rather that tephillin is a positive mitzvah
that is dependent upon time, and hence women are patur (Shulchan Aruch 28:3)

Note by the way that the same Rabbi Yehuda is quoted in Menachos 43a as
putting tzitzis on the members of his household (ie the women) because he
held that tzitzis also are a positive mitzvah not dependent upon time
(Rabbi Shimon disagreed there, which again is how we hold).

ie it is noteworthy that those tannaim who restricted or prevented women
from performing mitzvos aseh shehazman grama (Rabbi Meir, Rabbi Yehuda)
also had a much more limited definition of what such mitzvos were,
excluding tephillin and tallis, while those who permitted them to generally
perform mitzvos aseh shehazman grama had a more expansive definition.

Regards

Chana
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<<This of course also raises the question about the extent to which
Ashkenazim actually follow the Rema. On the Sephardi side, Rav Ovadiah,
a big proponent of following the Shulchan Aruch (Maran), claimed that
there were only three exceptions where the minhag is against Maran which
may be followed, but Sephardi poskim less of the Maran is the mara d'asra
school argue for a number more.>>

First there are loads of cases where the nosei keim (MA, Taz, Schach etc).
disagree with the Ramah. I would venture that in most such cases the final
halacha is machloket.

BTW can Chana tell us the 3 cases that are exceptions according to ROY.
Though I suspect there are more. In any cases there are cases where ROY
uses the Ramah at least as one additional factor in a kulah. One famous
case is bishul akum. When one goes to a restaurant where the owner/cook is
a nonJew but with a hasgacha almost always the masgiach lights the fire as
is the halacha according to the Ramah. This means that many sephardim
violate the halacha. ROY finds a heter based in part on the Ramah against
the Mechaber (note other sefardi poskim are machmir)

-- 
Eli Turkel
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> The gemara is on Baba Metzia 62a in a famous story of 2 people lost in
> the deset with enough water for only one to reach new water. Ben
> Peturah says they should split the water while Rav Akiva says the
> owner of the canteen gets all the water

I don't know why people don't notice Rashi's critical comment:
"Ve'im yishteh ha'echad, magia' liyshuv" - and he will find water.
Isn't that obvious? What is Rashi adding?  >>

According to CI I would explain that Rashi is emphasizing that long term
living (chaye olam) overcomes
short term living (chaye shaa). However, if in any case the one with the
water will only live for a few days
(chaye shaa vs chaye shaa) the indeed Rav Akiva agrees with Ben Peturah
that they share the water

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 10/02/2014 3:54 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>
>> It's not as if this is some strange and unique "agada"; it's pretty basic
>> to Jewish practise, going back at least to Kalev, that we do ask the dead to pray for us.
>
> According to the Midrash, which makes that a kind of circular argument.

"The Midrash" is not one person.  These are at least two separate agados,
which means it reflects normal Jewish thought.  Even if we were to suppose
for some reason that the story isn't literally true, it's told because it's
the sort of thing that Kalev *would* do, because it's what Jews do.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Martin Brody <martinlbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A common error.
> Try  finding it in Nitzavim.
>

Or Eikev, Re'eih, Shoftim, or Ki Seitzei.  Moshe's name appears seldom in
Sefer Devarim, given that the bulk of it is written in the first person.
The first to make the observation about Moshe's missing name likely saw no
need to explicitly exclude Sefer Devarim.  (Another chiluk that may or may
not be interesting:  Within the first four books, 38 of 43 parshiyos begin
with the letter vav; in Sefer Devarim, only 4 of 11 do).  Hence, the
excursus regarding Nitzavim-Vayeilech, while interesting, has no impact on
this drosh.

If one is uncomfortable basing a drosh on the relatively recent division of
the sedros, he may prefer to note that the entire section extending from
the mishkan to machatzis hashekel is encapsulated in one unit of "Vaydabeir
Hashem el Moshe leimor", which runs on significantly longer than any other
equivalent unit.  One could argue that the building of the mishkan, bigdei
kehunah, and chanukas ha-mishkan are sufficiently related so as to justify
inclusion in one unit, regardless of the length, but given that the
execution of the three topics are separated (first by the introduction to
Pekudei, then by the entire topic of korbonos), there is certainly
something to note in the absence of any sort of similar break-up of the
text in question.

Joshua Meisner
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R' Zev Sero wrote:
"So? How does that prevent them from getting closer to Hashem? Tzadikimein
lahem menucha, they are always moving higher and closer to Hashem."

Really? I always understood that while living you can move up or down but
not after death. That is why what we do when alive is so important because
it decides what will happen to us after death. After death, we cannot
fix/change  what we did or did not do while living. After death the neshama
is alone without a body without a yetzer hara, what can it do to move
higher/closer? There are no mitzvos that it can do.

"It's not as if this is some strange and unique "agada"; it's pretty basic
to Jewish practise, going back at least to Kalev, that we do ask the dead to
pray for us.  The Zohar says that when the world needs rain, we take a sefer
torah to the cemetery to inform the dead that we need help, and they then go
to Chevron to inform the Avot, and they all pray for us and it rains.
("Doresh el hameisim" doesn't mean people who have died, it means resha'im,
who are "meisim" even while they're breathing.)"


I am not saying it is strange, I just want to understand what is the
purpose and how it works given our assumptions about how tefilla in
general works.
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When did Moshe wear the mask (masveh)?

For the rest of his life (40yrs in desert)?
Sleeping, eating?
Speaking to his wife/family?
All the time (except removed when speaking to Hashem or the Jews)?

On 11/02/2014 5:45 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:
> R' Zev Sero wrote:
>> So? How does that prevent them from getting closer to Hashem?
>> Tzadikim ein lahem menucha, they are always moving higher and closer
>> to Hashem.

> Really? I always understood that while living you can move up or down
> but not after death.

Then you heard wrong.  As I quoted, tzadikim ein lohem menucha, lo bo'olom
hazeh, velo bo'olom habo.  Have you never heard of a neshama having an aliyah,
especially on a yortzeit?


> That is why what we do when alive is so important because it decides what
> will happen to us after death.

What we do here is so important because mitzvos exist only in this world.
Bameisim chofshi.  They can learn Torah but they can't do mitzvos.  And
one moment of doing mitzvos is better than all the pleasure one can have in
the Next World (one moment of which is better than all the pleasures of
this world).

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 2/11/2014 12:10 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 11/02/2014 5:45 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:
>> R' Zev Sero wrote:
>>> So? How does that prevent them from getting closer to Hashem?
>>> Tzadikim ein lahem menucha, they are always moving higher and closer
>>> to Hashem.

>> Really? I always understood that while living you can move up or down
>> but not after death.

> Then you heard wrong.

Well, no. He heard differently than you. As did I. Any movement a meit
has after death is due to things we do here. The meit has no power to
effect change for himself. Marty had asked about the Avot davening to get
closer to Hashem, and that's not the case. Perhaps they can daven to help
us, but after death, they are dependent on us to get closer to Hashem.

Lisa


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