Volume 32: Number 45
Wed, 19 Mar 2014
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Kenneth Miller" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:08:54 GMT
Subject: [Avodah] Rav Elya Lopian: tefillin and radio
I have made several references to Rav Elya Lopian speaking about tefillin and radio. I suppose I should clarify what he said and what he did not say.
By my recollection, I saw this many years ago on page 25 of the English
version of "Lev Eliyahu", and in the original Hebrew version as well, but
unfortunately I cannot find my copy of either of those to verify the page
or the wording. However, I did find a version of it online (and by googling
"lopian tefillin radio", you can find it on still other sites).
http://revach.net/stories/story-corner/Rav
-Eliyahu-Lopian-Ponders-Tefilin-And-Transistor-Radios/3137 gives this
version of the story:
> R' Eliyahu Lopian once met one of his students in the hallway
> holding a transistor radio. He asked the student, "Does the radio
> really work without being plugged in to an electrical socket?" The
> student answered that this was true. R' Lopian then said, "If even
> one little screw was missing, I assume it would probably not
> operate properly anymore." The student answered that this was
> also true.
>
> The student wondered what this conversation was all about, but R'
> Lopian then revealed what he really was thinking about. "If this
> is true, why do we find it hard to believe that we if we position
> a little box on our head (indicating the place of tefillin), it
> channels kedusha from Shamayim without a visual connection? This
> is true only if the four parshiyos of the Torah are written with
> complete perfection and kedusha. If even one letter is defective,
> the connection is lost and the kedusha is blocked. We can
> understand from the radio that this is true! (Lev Eliyahu)
The point I want to clarify is that Rav Lopian did NOT suggest that the
kedusha of tefillin can be somehow observed in our physical world. That
suggestion is mine, and I take responsibility for it. What Rav Lopian did
was to give a mashal to explain how important it is that the tefillin are
written properly, and that if they are *not* written properly, then the
tefillin will not "work".
In the past, we have discussed the situation of a person whose tefillin
have been checked and approved, and then a serious p'sul is discovered
which must have been missed in the earlier inspection. Does he get s'char
for donning such tefillin? I am NOT addressing that question here. And it
is possible that Rav Lopian was not addressing it either. He was describing
how *proper* tefillin "work". It is possible that improper tefillin work in
a different manner.
But I personally, many years ago, saw something else in Rav Lopian's
explanation. He spoke about the kedusha which one can receive by wearing
tefillin, despite there being no visible infusion of kedusha. (After all,
if I own tefillin, why should it matter whether they are on my arm or on my
desk?) And it was indeed Rav Lopian who compared this to hearing voices on
the radio, despite there being no visible connection between the radio and
the broadcasting studio.
That comparison is what led me to a new idea: The sun has been throwing all
sorts of random radiation at us for ages, and we never knew it. Consider
the thousands of broadcasters all over the planet who are broadcasting at
this very moment, and ALL of them are passing through your body as you read
this. Admittedly, the great majority are too weak for most instruments to
pick up, but that actually strengthens my point, because if you *did* have
the proper instruments, then right now you could be listing to an orchestra
in Tokyo, or even eavesdropping on a cellphone conversation in London.
I'll be the first to admit that when tefillin "broadcast" kedusha, it is
probably in an entirely different category than radio. But we can't prove
that. Two hundred years ago, radio was the sort of thing that only angels
were capable of. Who knows what the future will bring?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 2
From: David Riceman <drice...@optimum.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 15:02:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Eitz HaDa'at
On 3/14/14, 12:37 PM, avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org wrote:
> RZL:
> I don't think this is a correct application of the Rambam's thesis. His
> logic (see 1:49 and 2:6) is that since melachim are not physical beings,
> they cannot be physically seen by humans, and therefore any narrative of
> a person seeing a malach must be speaking of what he saw in a prophetic
> vision. However, here the narrative is not saying that Adam saw the
> keruvim, etc. but that Hashem placed them there. No reason to restrict
> the meaning to a mashal.
>
Except that the Rambam also holds that place cannot be predicated of
malachim, since they are disembodied. So how could God place them in a
particular location?
David Riceman
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Message: 3
From: David Riceman <drice...@optimum.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:44:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Time for the Deceased
RMB:
<<I would also, tangentially, relate this idea from REED to the concept
of chivut haqever>>
If I may be doubly tangential: I've never heard this expression out
loud, but I had imagined it to be hibut hakever because the ayin hapoal
takes a dagesh in pi'el. What am I missing?
David Riceman
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Message: 4
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:29:14 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Eitz HaDa'at
On 3/17/2014 2:02 PM, David Riceman wrote:
>
> On 3/14/14, 12:37 PM, avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org wrote:
>> RZL:
>> I don't think this is a correct application of the Rambam's thesis. His
>> logic (see 1:49 and 2:6) is that since melachim are not physical beings,
>> they cannot be physically seen by humans, and therefore any narrative of
>> a person seeing a malach must be speaking of what he saw in a prophetic
>> vision. However, here the narrative is not saying that Adam saw the
>> keruvim, etc. but that Hashem placed them there. No reason to restrict
>> the meaning to a mashal.
>>
> Except that the Rambam also holds that place cannot be predicated of
> malachim, since they are disembodied. So how could God place them in
> a particular location?
Different types of "place".
Lisa
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Message: 5
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 13:08:38 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Even More on Daas Torah and the Holocaust
From page 113 of Joe Bobker's article "To Flee
or to Stay" that is available at http://www.hakirah.org/vol%209%20bobker.pdf
The very torture and murder of 6,000,000 Jews, including the
cr?me de la cr?me of Orthodox European society and a staggering
Who?s Who of Torah giants, proved that rabbinic decisions in the
midst of mayhem, murder, and immorality can never be perfect.75
75 In the 1950s, a group of Orthodox Holocaust survivors in Israel and
New York formed ?The Institute for Research of the Problems of Ultra-
Orthodox Jews.? Their aim was to publish a Hebrew-language memorial
(Eleh Ezkerah, ?These I Will Remember?) containing the biographies
of leading rabbis who were murdered in the Holocaust al Kiddush
Hashem. The ambitious program stretched to seven volumes, with a total
of 368 biographies consisting of three pages each, describing the life
and death of a Torah martyr. But after the first edition the editors soon
ran into a problem. Instead of coming across as a testimony of heroic
spiritual resistance, the sheer volume and heart-breaking intricate details
were spiritually numbing and disorienting. The bestiality committed
against the wisest of all Jews was especially confusing and challenging
to the faith of the young. The concern was apparent: flipping through
so many unbearable photos and gruesome facts of saintly Torah pietists
and their families humiliated, tortured, and cruelly murdered, might be
seen as an indictment of a failed da?as Torah. Instead of giving chizuk to
the emotionally bruised survivors and inspiration to future generations,
it had the opposite effect: it spiritually anesthetized readers who were
frightened and stunned by the consequences of the decisions of so
many sages of Israel. No more editions were printed.
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 16:58:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Daas Torah and the Holocaust
On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 01:09:59PM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: The argument that daas Torah is a useless and meaningless concept --
: because not every talmid chacham has ruach hakodesh at every moment, or because
: talmidei chachamim are not granted ruach hakodesh at moments of "gezeirah
: hee milfanai" -- is a spurious argument....
I am not going to compare my skills with theirs, but I have the benefit
of hindsight.
Zionism was also a likely misstep. The majority of our gedolim ended up
banning participation in what turned out to be the greatest supporter
of Torah since Chizqiyahu haMelekh. In terms of sheer number of lomedei
Torah, Medinat Yisrael likely wins across all of history, so far!
Not protesting for Soviet Jews was another likely misstep.
Repeatedly protesting from victims of the American judiciary is another.
I wonder if Pollard or Rubashkin would still be in jail if the judges
weren't pushed to prove to the world that they were above politics.
I really can't think of a single communal issue on which the gedolim
did nearly as well in dispensing advice as the expects in the specific
field in question.
Just the list begins with the inter-war period simply because people didn't
seek daas Torah until then. But it's not that WWII was the only time
one can question whether there was any increased reliability to asking the
gedolim. Whether you attribute ruach haqodesh to their advice-giving
or the specialness of a mind shaped by Torah, the evidence isn't there
for the value of either.
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 01:43:04PM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
:> Did they know that at the time?
: I'm not sure who "they" refers to but if it refers to the rabbanim, rebbeim
: and other Torah leaders of the time, your question is, Did they know they
: were living in a time of hester panim?
: What kind of question is that? Of course they knew that they were living
: in a horrible, terrifying black fog!
Then shouldn't this have been reflected in what they're telling the
people? I haven't heard anyone refer to such disclaimers, but lo ra'inu
eino ra'ayah.
Returning to RnTK's Sunday post, moving on to the next topic:
: The Jews in Shushan blamed Mordechai for Haman's decree -- "You stubborn
: chareidi, couldn't you give Haman a little kovod, did you have to get us all
: in trouble?" Even after all the events of Purim, it was only "most" of
: the Jews, and not all of them, who respected the godol hador. But we know
: whose names are remembered and whose names have long been forgotten by Klal
: Yisrael.
Mordechai was a professional with a secular education and an expertise
in languages. I would say he was MO... ;-P Teasing aside, until the 50s,
if not later, "chareidi" means Orthodox, not a subset community. So I'm
fine with calling Mordechai "chareidi". But we should realize that the MO
/ Chareidi communal grouping is about as old as da'as Torah. There was
a time when a Zionist and an anti-Zionist could run Volozhin together,
when some students in Slabodka pursued secular knowledge and others
considered it assur, etc... The hashkafic issues were raised back in
the 19th cent, but they weren't issues used to divide ourselves into an
unzerer and a yenem.
...
[RnTK paraphrasing her brother:]
: Questions like, "Which job will be the most lucrative?" or "In which
: country will I be most likely to survive anti-Semitic gezeiros?" are not the
: relevant questions. The relevant question for a Jew is, "What does the Ribono
: Shel Olam want from me?" "How can I best serve my Borei?"
So then it wasn't part of the hesteir panim, it was simply not the
right question. This is a different approach which is inconsistent
with what you wrote above.
If more people defined daas Torah as R' Bulman (I didn't look up which,
I do not own any Schottenstein gemaros), there would be less (although
still some) debating on the subject on Avodah. What you're describing
is having a moreh derekh. I'm all for.
But there too, we probably don't see eye-to-eye. I am more comfortable
with RHS's approach, where all the moreh derekh can do is point out the
issues. RHS said "halachic issues", I'm less Brisk and would add aggadic
ones (or Hilkhos Dei'os, if you insist). Thse are questions where the
unknown are too numerous for harder advice than that to be more
helpful than guiding the person in their own decision-making.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 17:01:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] chassidaztion of halacha
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 07:41:21PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: The rabbi (Rav Shteinman) ruled that although the Torah does not prohibit
: it, it was inappropriate, as a child's gender should remain the way God
: created it...
: Rav Shteinman introduces a new element that women have less mitzvot than
: men (note "lo tilbash" goes both ways). To me this sounds more as a
: chassidic drash and part of the chassidization ... of the litvishe world.
Is it different in kind than some of the MB's chumeros? E.g. wearing
one's tzitzis out?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 17:10:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rav Elya Lopian: tefillin and radio
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 07:08:54PM +0000, Kenneth Miller wrote:
: In the past, we have discussed the situation of a person whose tefillin
: have been checked and approved, and then a serious p'sul is discovered
: which must have been missed in the earlier inspection. Does he get s'char
: for donning such tefillin? I am NOT addressing that question here. And
: it is possible that Rav Lopian was not addressing it either. He was
: describing how *proper* tefillin "work". It is possible that improper
: tefillin work in a different manner.
The nimshal for my position is that they work in the same manner. I
suggested that mitzvos work by shaping the soul of those who do them.
The nimshal for radio waves would be the psycho-spiritual state of the
wearer. A pesul in the tefillin that the person didn't know about and
has no culpibility for not knowing is like a break in the radio's case --
it needn't have any impact on the function of the radio at all.
: I'll be the first to admit that when tefillin "broadcast" kedusha,
: it is probably in an entirely different category than radio. But we
: can't prove that. Two hundred years ago, radio was the sort of thing
: that only angels were capable of. Who knows what the future will bring?
More on the line between physics and metaphysics, aretz and shamayim,
olam hazeh and olam haba (*), field theory and qedushah or taharah
later. Please stand by.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do.
mi...@aishdas.org Thus excellence is not an event,
http://www.aishdas.org but a habit.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Aristotle
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 17:18:10 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Eitz HaDa'at
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 07:29:14PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> Except that the Rambam also holds that place cannot be predicated of
>> malachim, since they are disembodied. So how could God place them in
>> a particular location?
> Different types of "place".
If you mean the verb "place", I would agree.
In reply to RDR's question, the location of a mal'akh according to
the Rambam could be the part of the world where it is charged to act.
They were set to guard the road to the eitz chaim from the west. The only
thing that needs to be idiomatic (which is far less than allegoric)
would be the one word, "vayashkein" in 3:24, "vayahskein miqedem leGan
Eden es hakeruvim".
Well, and the lahat hacherev hamishapekhes, but that isn't related to
RDR's question. I'm not even sure how to translate that. Flame of sword
which is spinning? It's not a sword of flame, the flame is of the sword...
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs,
mi...@aishdas.org they are guidelines.
http://www.aishdas.org - Robert H. Schuller
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 17:33:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Esther in a hurry
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 01:48:39PM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: R' Fohrman also notes that Esther only cries and weeps and falls at the
: king's feet and dramatically begs him to save her people AFTER Haman has been
: hanged and his house given to Mordechai!
To share much of his answer...
RDF suggested (with a LOT of indications in the text as a support)
that Esther's strategy was to discredit Haman as her paramour. Even
if it puts her own life at risk to save the Jews, "veka'asher avadti,
avadti". Thus the two parties of just the three of them. Then Haman died
with the law still intact, and she had no strategy left.
: It seems that Achashverosh was in no hurry to rescind Haman's decree (and
: actually never rescinded it). Who knows how long it took Esther to
: persuade Achashverosh to let Mordechai send the second letter, allowing the Jews
: to defend themselves?
In RDF's analysis, Achashveirosh's primary concern was to hold the
empire together despite its size. The the opening pasuq, to tell us
as much. And the big parties in pereq alef, impressing people with and
letting them enjoy the grandeur of the empire. He then brings up Vashti
as a symbol of Mother Persia, or at least tries to. Notice how Vashti
is replaced by a commoner, just anyone who wins the contest. Because
the new queen is supposed to be a symbol, a typical Persian Empirial
woman. And who wins? The girl who won't talk about her past, her origins,
her particular ethnicity.
This explains why Achsheveirosh wouldn't rescind a sealed law. He was
more concerned with preserving the authority of the chain of command
than the survivors of the exile from Judea.
Besides, as RDF also shows, there is no indication Achachveirosh thought
in moral terms altogether. A machivellian emperor; all about the function
of statecraft. No surprises there.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507 to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 11
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 16:44:31 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Eitz HaDa'at
On 3/18/2014 4:18 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 07:29:14PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>>> Except that the Rambam also holds that place cannot be predicated of
>>> malachim, since they are disembodied. So how could God place them in
>>> a particular location?
>> Different types of "place".
> If you mean the verb "place", I would agree.
But of course, I don't. I mean the noun. You're assuming that
coordinates in what physicists refer to as "space time" are the only
valid definition of space. I don't understand how you can make such an
assumption.
Lisa
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Message: 12
From: Batya Dayan <batyad...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 00:48:58 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Torah and Quantum Mechanics
hello my name is batya dayan
, i also read that article in the kolmus and was fascinated by its
brilliance .i however lost the precious newsletter containing the essay in
question. how would i be able to get another copy? thank you in advance
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Message: 13
From: Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 07:34:51 -0700
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Esther rin a hurry
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> I assume that Mordechai
> and Esther put at least some effort into lobbying Achashverosh to change
> the
> law and rescind Haman's letters; he was an absolute monarch, after all, so
> if he decided to do so who could prevent him? When he said "ein
> lehashiv" he
> didn't mean "I don't have the power to do this, it would be
> unconstitutional".
>
It seems clear from Daniel 6:15-16 that the king did _not_ have the power
to rescind his own laws, strange and even comical as this seems.
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Message: 14
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:45:30 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Congregation B'nai Yeshurun Hosts First-Ever
http://jewishlinkb
c.com/index.php?Itemid=562&;catid=150%3Anews&id=2867%3Acongrega
tion-bnai-yeshurun-hosts-first-ever-internet-minyan&option=com_content
&view=article
Does r'hs say the homebound get credit for tfila btzibbur and/or kriat hatorah? Can they be yozeih shomea koneh or by answering amen?
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 15
From: "Kenneth Miller" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:25:10 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Time for the Deceased (was: Why does Moshe use,
R' Micha Berger wrote:
> When we speak of doing things as an aliyah for a neshamah, we are
> tying events in the linear flow of time as experienced by post-eitz
> living people to events in the existence of someone who isn't
> connected to the physical time that we are experiencing as that flow.
> That there is something paralleling the time-as-it-really-is in the
> physical world in the soul's experience that is so much like our time
> that events can be lined up on the same clock and calendar.
As I've written, I'm not convinced that the deceased don't experience time. But that's okay, because I think I can make a case for our actions anyway.
For example, we are limited by time, and therefore there's a limit to how
much we can accomplish in any particular period of time. It is possible
that if the deceased don't experience time, then immediately (or soon)
after death, they go straight to whatever reward they've accrued, including
ALL of the actions that were -- or will be -- done in their memory. "Were
or will be" is a tricky phrase in this context, because it is relevant only
to us physical beings who are limited by time. If the deceased are outside
of this, then I don't see why they can't get it all at once -- whatever "at
once" might mean from their perspective.
But it can still be accurate to say that "they get an aliyah on their
yahrzeit", in the sense that the yahrzeit is an appropriate occasion for US
to do things in their memory. It is very similar to saying that Hashem is
more forgiving on Yom Kippur -- no, He's not! He is outside of time, right?
Rather, Yom Kippur is an appropriate time for US to act AS IF He is more
forgiving.
If this makes any sense, then we do not need that which RMB referred to as
"something paralleling the time-as-it-really-is", because the deceased can
experience everything all at once. There's no need for another system by
which our discrete points in time can be mapped to their other system.
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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Impairs brain function, damages your heart, joints, & skin
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Message: 16
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 20:38:15 +0200
Subject: [Avodah] Esther
<<But Avichayil was his uncle, and therefore Esther was his first cousin.
And Avichayil is unlikely to have been more than 25 years younger than
his nephew, and thus his daughter is unlikely to have been more than 70
years younger than her first cousin. Not impossible, but unlikely.>>
Esther according to the Midrash was 40-80
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/271/Q3/
She was also a blond (yerakroket)
http://daf-yomi.com/DYItemDetails.aspx?itemId=13377
http://tora.us.fm/tnk1/messages/dmut_dmut_1303_0.html
As usual the questions is how lietarlly to accept midrashim as pshat
Of course according to the archaeological and Greek records Achashverosh is
identified with
Xerxes I (ruled 486-465 BCE). So when Esther was crowned it was at least
110 years after the destruction of the Temple making Mordechai at least 120
from the time of Yechonya.
--
Eli Turkel
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