Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 69

Sat, 26 Apr 2014

• 1. Re: vav hahipuch (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: vav hahipuch (Mandel, Seth)
• 5. : obsession with kitniyot (Chana Luntz)
• 6. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 7. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Kenneth Miller)
• 9. A posuk with no dagesh (H Lampel)

LAlso my translation "vayeilekh" ="he was coing" is flawed by a limitation
of English. "Was" inserts a tense into the text itself. For that matter,
I dont know how to write a verb in English without putting /some/ tense
in there. Had I written "so [then] he [was] going", with "so" standing
in for the andiness of "ve-", it would have been a shade more accurate.

But it's still not what RMS said I meant.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

The problem you are pointing out here is one of general education, not 
just kitniyot.  I remember some guy telling me it is better to daven 
alone than in a minyan with a different nusach. Go figure.

Ben

On 4/25/2014 9:19 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> Some of my daughter's friends came over last Shabbat and were hanging 
> out.  We had some nosh for the kids, and one girl asked if we keep 
> kitniyot, because she wanted to be sure she could eat in our house.  
> Seriously?  And there's no sense in pointing out that she's only 
> 14-ish.  That's how she was taught by her parents.  And I know plenty 
> of adults who do the same.  It's pathological. 

On 25/04/2014 3:19 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>
> Simchat Yom Tov is a chiyuv d'Orayta, but attempts to increase it are
> blocked because of an odd minhag that is sometimes treated more
> severely than actual halakhot.

It is an actual halacha.


> There used to be peanut oil, kosher for Pesach. I mean, Rav Moshe
> said that peanuts are absolutely, 100%, not kitniyot in any way,
> shape or form.

So?  Not everyone agrees with him.  We've been through this before: last year
I went through several alleged sources for heter and found that they in fact
forbid.  I don't remember the exact details now, but my recollection is that,
for instance, the Melamed Leho'il explicitly forbids.


> And shemen kitniyot is a whole other extension of an already iffy minhag.

Not true.  It's clear from the Rama that it's forbidden.  The heterim are
available but iffy.


> But you can't find kosher l'pesach peanut oil any more. Am I the only
> one here who sees something seriously wrong? At a time when young
> people are straining at the bit already, we're adding specious
> prohibitions?

We're not adding anything.  *We* (meaning where I'm from) never accepted
this heter in the first place.  And some who did accept it for a while returned
to their previous practise.  It's not as if it started out with a universally
accepted heter.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

I apologize for misrepresenting what Micha meant.
But there is a lot that Gesenius did not get into.  One was that the vav hahippukh converts the verb from perfect/imperfect into a more definitive state.
A vav hahippukh with the imperfect following a pefect form makes it into a perfect form.
A vav hahippukh with a perfect form folllowing an imperatve/jussive/future converts it into an imperative/jussive/future.
In both cases, it is the "and" element, easily ignored, that does the conversion.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union
11 Broadway, New York, NY  10004

Voice (212) 613-8330     Fax (212) 613-0718     e-mail mand...@ou.org
________________________________________
From: Micha Berger [mi...@aishdas.org]
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 4:51 PM
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
Cc: Mandel, Seth; t6...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Avodah] vav hahipuch

LAlso my translation "vayeilekh" ="he was coing" is flawed by a limitation
of English. "Was" inserts a tense into the text itself. For that matter,
I dont know how to write a verb in English without putting /some/ tense
in there. Had I written "so [then] he [was] going", with "so" standing
in for the andiness of "ve-", it would have been a shade more accurate.

But it's still not what RMS said I meant.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

RAM writes:

>In other words, it seems to me that a significant number of people prefer
Minhag Avos for davening even though >it causes a mishmash in the shul, and
yet they eould like to see a unified Minhag Hamakom for what goes into >each
individual's mouth.

>I don't get it. What are their priorities? What is the basis for this
dichotomy?

I think RAM is right, but I do think there are certain reasons for it.

Changing davening minhag is a lot harder than changing what one eats - at
least vis a vis kitniyos where we are dealing with something that people eat
the rest of the year.  Changing davening minhag is much more like trying to
lose an accent, something that people over a certain age really struggle to
do.  And especially if the davening minhag you are being asked to change
comes with a letter change minhag - eg pronouncing your ayins, dropping your
safs (or inserting them) reading all vets as bets etc.

It also, to do it properly, may well come with quite a learning curve.
There are a surprising number of halachic differences to trip you up.  And
clearly trying to follow the nusach of eg Edot HaMizrach, but unwittingly
poskening like the Rema here there and everywhere on major points of
principle because that is what you know may mean you end up with a tephila
that is actually neither this nor that.

Kitniyos is easy because it is very clearly defined, and these are foods
that are eaten by Ashkenazim during the rest of the year.  I think you
might, however, find a different reaction where the suggested change is to
something that does not sit well on the stomach of those being asked to
change - eg hot spicy humim versus cholent (or beans in cholent versus
rice).  Again over a certain age, our taste buds and stomachs seem to become
more rigid regarding what they are able to tolerate - and I doubt that a
unified minhag hamakom regarding what is eaten on shabbas would be any more
acceptable than a nusach change.  Our children, however, who eat in each
other's houses, might well decide that actually they prefer humim to
chollent (or vice versa) and you then sometimes find some surprising choices
in the next generation.  But that is only because they grew up eating
chollent and humim, and those same children are usually the ones who can
comfortably change davening nusach at the drop of a hat (I know a ba'al
koreh who quite happily layns both Edot hamizrach and Ashkenazi, and will
often go from minyan to minyan on a shabbas layning different nusachim in
different places.  But I have also heard him get put off by the oleh's
brachos, and unconsciously switch nusach from that read in the aliyah before
to that of the nusach of the oleh's brachos without him even realising what
has happened, query whether that is good either.  Maybe we should
standardise on the first aliyah being this nusach, the second that one etc
etc, that way preserving all the tunes but having a standard nusach
throughout - think of what a lot of work that would be for a ba'al koreh).

>Akiva Miller

Shavuah Tov

Chana

R'n LL:
On a side note, my sister in law's birthday is during Pesach most of the
time.  She isn't remotely observant, so her husband took her out to a
restaurant for a birthday dinner of lobster, her favorite. When it came, she
asked the waiter if he could take it back and bring it without the side of
greenbeans, because it was Passover.  I know she's no indication, since she
knows next to nothing, but the lunacy of it all just gets to me.
----------------------------- 

To me this says that she's still connected, somewhat, to yiddishkeit and
Pesach, and it's the minhag of Kitniyos that is making that connection. Had
there not been that minhag in her family, she would have even less of a
connection to Yiddishkeit.

KT,
MYG

On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 04:21:48PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: >There used to be peanut oil, kosher for Pesach. I mean, Rav Moshe
: >said that peanuts are absolutely, 100%, not kitniyot in any way,
: >shape or form.
: 
: So?  Not everyone agrees with him...

I think this framing is flawed. Rather, qitniyos is minhag, and thus
regional. RMF reported the minhag in the area around Luban, it needn't
be the same minhag as reported by the Rama.

There are numerous historically attested to versions of qitniyos.
Some include mei qitniyos, and of them not all include shemen qitniyos.
Some include anything where the same logic would spply -- although not
potatos she'ein hatzibur yekholim laamod ba. Others kept the list to
specific items. Since they are all minhagim of different communities,
I don't see how one can be asserted as more right, nor more "iffy",
than another.


Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

Rabbi Meir Rabi wrote:

> it is worthwhile to keep in mind that Kitniyos are permitted when
> three conditions are met
> A - it comprises less than half of the final product
> B - it is not readily identifiable, like a rice grain in an
>     otherwise clear soup
> C - it is not added deliberately for consumption by an Ashkenasi
>
> thus all coke and all foods using corn syrup or lecithin [chocloate]
> manufactured for the non-Jewish population or even specifically
> manufactured for Pesach for the Sefaradim, may be eaten LeChatChiLa
> by Ashkenasim so Halva is excluded, and a mixed salad including rice
> grains

These conclusions, at first glance, seem very similar to what we've said
about lists of "approved" foods for year-round kashrus. But I think there
are significant differences.

On the one hand, bittul *does* work prior to Pesach, even for real chometz.
And for certain items -- notably milk -- this is de rigueur and even
recommended, for places and times when it is difficult to get with a
hechsher for Pesach. But on the other hand, I think it is safe to say that
we avoid chometz to a markedly greater degree than other kashrus issues. It
is for this reason -- NOT for kitniyos reasons -- that I would avoid Coke
or chocolate which lacked a Pesach hechsher.

I'll concede that the Coke's corn syrup is kitniyos, and the chocolate's
lecithin is kitniyos, but what do I know about the other ingredients?
Perhaps they contain some actual chometz or are derived from actual
chometz? How can I know? I did admit above that bitul does work before
Pesach even for actual chometz, but there's a big difference between a
staple like milk and a nosh like chocolate.

But the times are changing. Both the OU and Star-K -- not to mention so
many Israeli hechsherim -- will certify products for Pesach with a
"Kitniyos" label. Let's take an example of such a product: This year,
Ferrero brand "Nutella" Hazelnut spread was certified as "OU-Kitniyot".
(Again: not merely approved, but *certified*.)

I don't know if this was a special run and they changed the ingredients,
but for the sake of argument, let's say that they used the regular
ingredients, which according to their website (http://www.nutellausa.com
/ingredients.htm) are: "sugar, palm oil, hazelnuts, cocoa, skim milk,
reduced minerals whey (milk), lecithin as emulsifier (soy), vanillin: an
artificial flavor." At least the first five of those -- and possibly more
(I don't know if there is supposed to be a comma after "minerals") -- have
no real chometz or kitniyos problems that I know of.

Can an Ashkenazi eat this on Pesach? It certainly seems to meet all of
RMR's criteria. And I would argue that it is even better than pre-purchased
milk, because it is *certified* to have no chometz at all.

By the way, another product, also certified as "OU-Kitniyot" is "Kitni"
brand peanut butter. Kitni (a division of Manischewitz) is making several
kitniyos products, but most of the others are mainly rice or corn, and
would fail RMR's rules. I'm focusing on the peanut butter because I accept
Rav Moshe Feinstein's psak that peanuts (note: even actual peanuts, not
just peanut oil) is NOT kitniyos unless one has a specific minhag that they
are. This particular product has only two ingredients: peanuts and sugar,
so I would not even need to worry that it contains some soy oil. If it
*did* contain some soy oil, it would still pass RMR's criteria, but it
doesn't contain any, so maybe I'll buy some next year!

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/535c67381737367375d14st03vuc

This Shabbos I somehow noticed something apparently unique in the posuk 
in Kedoshim about honest weights(Vayikra 19:36). Not one letter of that 
posuk has a dagesh in it. I'm wondering if there is any other such 
posuk.(An if there is a point to this (;-))

Zvi Lampel



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