Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 73

Tue, 29 Apr 2014

• 1. Re: help with 2 sugyot (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Kenneth Miller)
• 3. Re: help with 2 sugyot (Saul Guberman)
• 4. Re: Shlissel Challah (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: help with 2 sugyot (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Israelis should keep two days of Yom Tov in Chutz L'Aretz (Allan Engel)
• 9. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Eitan Levy)
• 10. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Akiva Blum)
• 11. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Marty Bluke)
• 12. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Prof. Levine)
• 13. help with 2 sugyot (Eli Turkel)

> <<That is exactly what the story is telling us.  Naval could have arranged
> this himself.  This is a standard business procedure in this locale.  If
> you protect/enhance property, even if not engaged to do so, you are
> entitled to be compensated. No, I do not understand when/how that works and
> when/how it does not work.   >>
>

Sounds exactly like a modern mafia shakedown. We give you protection
whether you like it or not and you pay for it



-- 
Eli Turkel
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R' Yitzchok Levine said of his wife:
> My wife countered with "What is matzah made from?" If flour is
> chometz that how can you bake matza from it? Her friend was silent.

R' Zev Sero responded:
> Matzah is not made from ordinary flour.  It's made from flour that
> has been guarded to make sure that it did not become wet. Ordinary
> flour is made from grain that definitely *has* been wet.  Whether
> this makes it chometz is a more complicated question (see below),
> but your wife's response is not correct.

R' Zev, aren't you referring specifically about Matza Shemura? My
understanding is that there is also a thing called Matza Peshuta, which CAN
be made from ordinary flour (in theory). It is not valid for Mitzvas
Achilas Matza because of this lack of shemira, yet is still kasher l'pesach
provided that there's no actual chashash of chometz.

Rabbi Eider explains (this is a paraphrase, I don't have it available right
now) the pasuk "Ushmartem es hamatzos": What is the pasuk telling us? That
we have to make sure that the matza isn't chametz? We already know that
from the issur of chametz! It must be that for the mitzva of achilas matza,
it is insufficient that we *know* it to be non-chometz; we must actively
*protect* it from becoming chometz.

Mrs. Levine was exactly correct. See the MB 453:24 that I cited earlier: In
theory, we ARE able to make Matza Peshuta from store-bought flour, which
has obviously not been "guarded". But that's only in theory, because in
practice, in our times and places, the commercial flour is washed to a
degree that makes it safek chometz or presumably chometz.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

Don't we learn the same thing from the story of David & Naval.  Naval had
his own people to guard/herd/ranch his flocks.  David and his followers
(the meforshim describes them as worse) guard his flock without  being
hired and then confront Naval for payment that he is due. They were ready
to kill Naval over this.

Saul


On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In a shiur I recently gave I received a great negative response (to put it
> mildly) from the audience - mainly American olim. I mention this because
> the halacha seems to go against the grain of American thought.
>
> 1 "Yored Le-toch Sadeh Chavero She-lo Be-reshut"
> There are 2 situations
> (a) someone plants something in my garden that I dont want or dyes my
> white shirt blue while I wear white shirts - the gardener or dyer is
> entitled to his expenses which according to some including his labor at
> some minimum level
>
> Why should he be entitled to anything? He comes into my property
> illegall;y, does an activity that
> increases the value in a way that I dont want and then has the cutzpah to
> ask for expenses.
> Throw the guy in jail.
>
> (b) I am fully happy with what he did - he is entitled to complete payment
> for his work -
> Why? I have my own gardener or dyer who always does my work for job. Wjy
> should a stranger be able to "steal" the work from him? Sounds like any
> gardener who doesnt have enough jobs should just go into yards and cut mow
> the lawn or remove the snow without permission and then demand full
> compensation.
>
> 2. Ze Ne-heneh ve-ze lo chaser
> I am away from home for the summer and obviously just leave it empty while
> I am gone (ie I dont rent it)
> Someone picks the lock and moves in for those months without causing any
> damage and makes sure all bills are paid.  I am not entitled to any rent
> and it seems not ethical to throw him out.
> The commentaries on SA even ask why the owner cant be forced to let in
> someone - kofim al midat sdom - and answer that since a person has a right
> to demand rent then even when he doesnt rent it out he cant be forced to
> rent it.
>
> Again throw the intruder in jail
>
> American feeling is that my home is my fiefdom and I can do whatever is
> necessary to stop people from entering even though I dont live on the
> premises. Even havent guns to shoot or trapdoors against possible
> intruders. In a similar case R. Zilberstein (and seemingly Rav Chaim
> Kanevsky) paskened that this is indeed allowed according to halacha. After
> several attacks on their position they admitted that at the least one needs
> to put up a sign stating that intruders are liable to be shot without
> notice (originally Rav Zilberstein felt that the prohibition to steal is
> enough of a sign). Again many others disagreed strongly including Rav
> Bleich in Tradition.
>
> Any explanations of the 2 sugyot are appreciated.
>
> --
> Eli Turkel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>
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What I got from this lecture was that if someone were to add a "yehi 
ratzon" to the shlissel challah, that would solve any issue (right? I 
mean, what would be the different between that yehi ratzon and the long 
that many recite on Rosh HaShana?).

Ben

On 4/28/2014 9:15 AM, Isaac Balbin wrote:
> http://www.yutora
> h.com/lectures/lecture.cfm/772117/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Segulas,_Sup
> erstition,_and_the_Ayin_Hara
>
>

On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 11:59:29PM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: Pesach is not about deprivation, but about eating /different/ food than you 
: eat the whole year...

I think this perception is uniquely modern.

Before crispy matzvos, before matzah bakeries, before qitniyos, how did
Pesach diet differ from the rest of the year? How rapidly your flad
Middle Eastern style bread was baked. How carefully you watched the wheat.

(For that matter, shemirah mishe'as qetzirah wasn't a common shitah until
the acharonim. Rashi's matzah shemurah was mishe'as techinah, and even then,
the MA argues (OC 453:4) that this was because in his area most mills
were water mills, and the threat of the flour getting wet was real.)

MideOraisa, it's baking that changed far more than diet. Ushemartem es
hamatzos.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 13th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Gevurah: To what extent is judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   necessary for a good relationship?

On 28/04/2014 4:59 PM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> R' Yitzchok Levine said of his wife:
>> My wife countered with "What is matzah made from?" If flour is
>> chometz that how can you bake matza from it? Her friend was silent.
>
> R' Zev Sero responded:
>> Matzah is not made from ordinary flour.  It's made from flour that
>> has been guarded to make sure that it did not become wet. Ordinary
>> flour is made from grain that definitely *has* been wet.  Whether
>> this makes it chometz is a more complicated question (see below),
>> but your wife's response is not correct.
>
> R' Zev, aren't you referring specifically about Matza Shemura? My
> understanding is that there is also a thing called Matza Peshuta,
> which CAN be made from ordinary flour (in theory). It is not valid
> for Mitzvas Achilas Matza because of this lack of shemira, yet is
> still kasher l'pesach provided that there's no actual chashash of
> chometz.

What we call "shmura" is shmura mish'as ketzira.  What we call "non-
shmura" is shmura mish'as techina.  Kemach min hashuk was acceptable
in Chazal's day, but not for the last 1000 years or more.


> Mrs. Levine was exactly correct. See the MB 453:24 that I cited earlier:
> In theory, we ARE able to make Matza Peshuta from store-bought flour,
> which has obviously not been "guarded". But that's only in theory, because
> in practice, in our times and places, the commercial flour is washed to
> a degree that makes it safek chometz or presumably chometz.

And that is exactly why she was *not* correct.  Matzah is not made from
ordinary flour.   Maybe in Chazal's day it was, but it isn't now.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 28/04/2014 4:47 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>
>> That is exactly what the story is telling us. Naval could have
>> arranged this himself. This is a standard business procedure in
>> this locale. If you protect/enhance property, even if not engaged
>> to do so, you are entitled to be compensated. No, I do not
>> understand when/how that works and when/how it does not work. >>
>
> Sounds exactly like a modern mafia shakedown. We give you protection
> whether you like it or not and you pay for it

Not at all.  The point of a mafia shakedown is that the only people you need
protection from is them.  You are paying them not to attack you.  David, of
course, posed no danger to Naval.  And Naval knew very well that the Plishtim
did.  David was *actually* protecting him from them; without David they would
have attacked him, and he would have been helpless.  He knew this, and his
claim otherwise was a pretense.   That's why he had to pay.  If he hadn't
really needed protection, e.g. if he had his own arrangement with the Plishtim,
ten he would not owe David anything.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

RSZA may well have been against Minyanim of Yomtov Sheni in Israel, but in
Kol Torah Yeshiva (where he was one of the Roshei Yeshiva) they always had
such Minyanim.


On 28 April 2014 21:45, Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:

>  The MB, RSZA were opposed to having 2nd day minyanim here.
>
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1. The idea of multiple minhagim in one place was essentially an innovation
of the rabbanei gerushei sepharad who came to live alongside other
communities after leaving Spain. This became accepted practice over the
centuries where entire kehillot were concerned. I find it somewhat
disingenuous then when Sephardi rabbis say we should all (in E"Y) keep the
minhagim of the Sephardim. The farthest Rav Ovadia went was to say that an
Ashkenazi in E"Y could change minhagim if he wished, with hatarat nedarim,
etc.
2. The claim that 'Sephardi' is the minhag hamakom is highly debatable on
both historical and current demographic grounds.
3. There is a difference between maintaining the minhag in the most
stringent way possible, and maintaining it in a reasonable, well-balanced
way, just as in other areas of halacha.
--
Best Wishes
,
-Eitan Levy
IL: 050-9807602
?INTL: +972-50-980-7602?


On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@mail.gmail.com>wrote:

> > There seems to be several groups pushing to kill the minhag:
>
> > 1) People who claim (a la Machon Shilo) that there is a Minhag Eretz
> > Yisrael and qitniyot goes against it. These people have their own nusach
> > for Tefila.
> > 2) People who marry sefardiot (dafka) and make some sort of compromise
> > regarding the custom
> > 3) BTs who decide that it isn't incumbent upon them to accept the custom.
> > 4) FFBs who contend that the whole thing is a mistake.
> > 5) Those (of various backgrounds) who can't stand not being able to eat
> > what others can eat (I am not sure if this is really different from #4).
>
> Another group that wishes to limit (not kill) the minhag simply feel
> that we are dealing with chumrah on top of chumrah on something that is
> only a minhag that we really dont know the origin of and was opposed by
> promement rabbis from the beginning.
>
> Thus for example Rav Melamed in his set of halachot allows lechitin
> based on the fact that one needs to combine several chumrot in order to
> prohibit it. He certainly doesnt kill the entire minhag for ashkenzaim.
>
>
> [Email #2]
>
> > AFAIK it started with Grushei Sfarad, who flooded the Mediterranean,
> > including EY, and insisted on keeping their Sefaradi communities and
> minhagim
> > instead of assimilating into the local communities.  That's how EY
> suddenly
> > became Sefaradi.
>
> Before that EY was pretty desolate with no real community. The community
> in Akko of Baale haTosafot basically disappeared. When Ramban came
> to Jerusalem there was basically no one there. There was also a tiny
> community ion Hevron. I am not sure there was anything in Tzfat before
> the gerushei sfarad came there.
>
> --
> Eli Turkel
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
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From: On Behalf Of Ben Waxman
Sent: Monday, 28 April, 2014 11:16 PM
> http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Pasta.html

> The pasta is placed in a drying tank in which heat, moisture, and drying
> time are strictly regulated...

The article lists 7 stages:
Mixing & Kneeding, Flavoring & coloring, Rolling, Pasteurization, Cutting,
Drying, Packaging.

Note the description for pasteurization, which takes place before the
drying:

"The roll of dough moves through a steamer, which heats the dough to 220deg F
(104deg C) in order to kill any existing bacteria."

Would this not prevent chimutz from this stage on?

Now, of course, it could have sat without work in between one of the
earlier stages for 18 minutes, but there doesn't appear to be any reason
why they should davka do so. In which case, pasta would be no more than
sofek chometz.

Akiva 

R' Zev Sero wrote:
> So how can anyone call it a
> ha'arama?  To do so is a lie, and a defamatory one at that.

I guess then that the whole list of Acharonim and contemporary poskim
that R' Micha Berger quoted including the Beis Yosef, Bechor Shor, the
Beis Efraim, RYBS, RHS, etc. who do assume that mechiras chametz is a
haarama and therefore discuss whether it is permitted to sell chometz
gamur are all liars and defamers.

R' Zevin in Moadim B'Halacha has a very nice piece where he explains
the evolution of Mechiras Chametz (see there for a discussion of the
Haarama aspect as well). He says that there were 4 different periods in
the evolution of Mechiras Chametz:

1. A real sale where the Goy takes the chametz from the Jew, pays him
in full for it and the Jew has no intention to buy it back after Pesach

2. A real sale where the Goy takes the chametz from the Jew, pays him
in full for it, however there was an unwritten agreement that the Goy
would sell the chametz back after Pesach.

3. A formal sale of the chometz where the chometz would remain in the
Jews house/store and the Goy would only pay a fraction of the price
before Pesach with the rest as a loan. This was instituted by the early
Acharonim (Bach and others) because Jews were starting to deal in Chometz
(whiskey) and they could not move all the chometz or find a Goy to pay
the full price for the Chometz. Note, this was a private sale where the
Rav arranged it for a specific merchant. It was at this point that the
discussion about haarama started.

4. A general sale by the Rav for the whole community's Chametz at once.
This started about 200 years ago where the whole community sold their
chomez to the Rav or appointed him a shliach to sell their chometz. Many
Rabbanim opposed this when it was originally instituted (calling it a
haarama) but it was eventually accepted and is the normative minhag today.

[Email #2]

R' Zev Sero asked what Acharonim don't permit the sale of chometz gamur
and why?

There are a number of reasons:
1. The Behag and other Rishonim have the girsa in the Tosefta that
permits selling your chometz to a Goy ending with the words "Ubilvad
shelo yaarim" The Ritva explains this to mean that it is prohibited to
institutionalize a sale to the goy.

2. When the sale became a formality, the Goy didn't actually take
possession of the Chometz and didn't pay most of the money up front,
the Bechor Shor brought up the issue of it being a haarama on a d'oraysa
and therefore prohibited based on the following:

The Gemara in Shabbos 139b has the following story. There is an issur
d'rabbanan to go on a boat on Shabbos. One of the chachamim wanted to
get across the river on Shabbos but he didn't want to violate the issur.
Therefore he did the following. He got on the boat well before it left
and pretended to fall asleep. Then when the boat got to the other side
he pretended to wake up and got off. Someone asked his Rebbe how is that
permitted? The Rebbe answered that a haarama is permitted for a talmid
chacham to get around an issur d'rabbanan.

The Bechor Shor claimed that selling your chametz is a haarama and
therefore should only be permitted for chametz d'rabbanan as the Gemara
in Shabbos seems to say and he sparked a whole discussion in Acharonim
(Chasam Sofer, Mekor Chaim, Sdei Chemed and others) on this topic. In
our time, RYBS held like this and therefore would not sell chametz gamur.

3. Nowadays we do a communal sale where the Rav formally (e.g. Goy
doesn't take possession, no full payment, agreement to buy it back)
sells everyone's chametz. This type of sale raises a whole host of other
issues (on top of the first 2 issues above). R' Zevin in Moadim Halacha in
his essay on Mechrias Chametz (I highly recommend this essay for anyone
reading this thread where he goes through the historical evolution of
the mechira as well as all of the halachic issues) outlines some of the
additional objections (each one is worth a full discussion in and of
itself) to this type of sale (Ayen Sham).

[Email #3]

R' Yitzchak Levine wrote:
> As I pointed out just a few minutes ago, modern commercial flour is not
> processed today as it was in the time of MB.  Again see
> http://kosherpoint.com/pesach/480

You keep referring back to this article, yet you consistently ignore the
first opinion quoted there that flour is chometz gamur. This opinion is
quoted in the name of a number of contemporary poskim who know how flour is
made today and still consider it chametz gamur.

Additionally, the second opinion on that page quoting R' Yitzchok Gutterman
from the OU (who you hold to be the gold standard of Kashrus supervision)
holds that flour is safek chametz.

[Email #4]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> And the Star-K says that it is not real chometz.

However, you have always stated on this forum that in your estimation the
OU is the pre-eminent Kashrus organization in the world.

At 03:47 AM 4/29/2014, Marty Bluke wrote:
>You keep referring back to this article, yet you 
>consistently ignore the first opinion quoted 
>there that flour is chometz gamur. This opinion 
>is quoted in the name of a number of 
>contemporary poskim who know how flour is made 
>today and still consider it chametz gamur.
>
>Additionally, the second opinion on that page 
>quoting R' Yitzchok Gutterman from the OU (who 
>you hold to be the gold standard of Kashrus 
>supervision) holds that flour is safek chametz.

And the Star-K says that it is not real chometz.

<<That is exactly what the story is telling us.  Naval could have arranged
this himself.  This is a standard business procedure in this locale.  If
you protect/enhance property, even if not engaged to do so, you are
entitled to be compensated. No, I do not understand when/how that works and
when/how it does not work.>>

As an aside a nice discussion of the roles of David and Naval in the story
can be found at
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/shmuel/47shmuel.htm
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/shmuel/48shmuel.htm
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/shmuel/49shmuel.htm

-- 
Eli Turkel
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