Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 93

Fri, 06 Jun 2014

• 1. Re: Corrected Birchos Ha-Shachar on Shavuos Morning by Rabbi D. Neustadt (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Mitzvah leFarneis (Kenneth Miller)
• 3. Re: "Ba'asher hu shom", or "Kol hamerachem al ho'achzorim"? (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. Earliest light and Netilas Yadayim (David Wacholder)
• 5. Better to Daven without a Minyan? (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: Better to Daven without a Minyan? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: "Ba'asher hu shom", or "Kol hamerachem al ho'achzorim"? (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Re: Better to Daven without a Minyan? (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Better to Daven without a Minyan? (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Earliest light and Netilas Yadayim (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Women going to shul was women wearing Tefillin (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: "Ba'asher hu shom", or "Kol hamerachem al ho'achzorim"? (Lisa Liel)
• 13. "And God said: 'Let there be light, and there was light'" (Genesis 1:3) ()
• 14. seeking recommendations for sefer on hilchot gittin (Yaacov David Shulman)
• 15. Re: Better to Daven without a Minyan? (Lawrence Teitelman)

On Mon, Jun 02, 2014 at 10:10:25AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: From http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5757/bamidbar.html
: 
: BIRCHOS HASHACHAR ON SHAVUOS MORNING

FWIW, the AhS (OC 47:23) that one says birkhos hashachar and richas
hatorah daily, even if one didn't sleep. That the SA (se'if 12) speaks of
getting up for the day as a way of defining "me'eis la'eis" as to when
to say it, in normal circumstances. (So if you wake up in the middle of
the night, and plan on learning a little and then finishing the night's
sleep, you don't need a new berakahah.) He raises the idea that there
is no need to make a berakhah and dismisses it (c.f. MA s"q 11).

Vekhein haminhag hapashut ve'ein lashanos.

Our (at least the minhagicly East European among us) abandonment of this
position ofr a way to avoid the problem throuhg a third party or relying
on Ahavah Rabba appears to be the MB (s"q 28) refraining from choosing
beweeen shitos, kedarko beqodesh.

Lo zakhisi lehavin the Ahava solution, because one is choosing to rely
on a bedi'eved for the sake of avoiding the traditionally accepted pesaq.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 48th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Malchus: What binds different
Fax: (270) 514-1507             people together into one cohesive whole?

R' Micha Berger quoted AhS O"C 90:20 -
> it is because WE GO ON THE ROAD FOR OUR PARNASOS. THIS IS CONSIDERED
> A DEVAR MITZVAH [emph added], for it is a mitzvah to support
> [lefarneis] his wife and children. For there is an obligation to
> support his wife; and his sons and daughters ...

and he summarized:
> So we hold halakhah lemaaseh that one can miss minyan to fit a work
> schedule because supporting one's family is the greater mitzvah.

Does this mean that an unmarried man, or one who has no children to
support, should not take a job which will require him to miss minyan? Note
that the AhS cited treats Mincha and Maariv no differently than Shacharis.

(For the sake of clarity, I suggest that the conversation should begin with
this simpler case, and not yet deal with more complicated cases, such as a
man who is currently single, but sees a need to save up for his future
family.)

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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R' Zev Sero wrote:
> What about "ba'asher hu shom"?

R"n Lisa Liel responded:
> That's for Hashem.  Has nothing to do with us.

And then R' Zev Sero posted:

> On the contrary, it makes more sense to say that if Hashem, to Whom
> there's no real difference between future and past, doesn't judge
> someone for what he has not yet done, then how much more so we, to
> whom the difference is real, mustn't do so, even if we are somehow
> certain that the person will offend.
>
> OTOH we have ben sorer umoreh.  But even he has to have committed
> an actual crime.

I would like to side with RZS here, that "baasher hu sham" certainly does
apply to us. But while see seems to be slightly bothered by the case of ben
sorer umoreh, I'd like to show that it is not an exception at all, but fits
very well.

Let's go to another example: Amaleki babies. What have they done yet?
Certainly nothing. Do we know for sure that they'll become evil later on?
Well, we do have the example of Haman's descendants, who actually became
Jews, but I must admit that I don't know the full history there, and it is
possible that they did some awful things prior to the conversion.

My point is that as much as we'd LIKE to say that we know that these people
(ben sorer umoreh, and Amaleki babies) will certainly grow up to be evil,
we DON'T really know that. Yet we ARE obligated to kill them. Why? NOT
because we know the future, but because of a Gezeras Hakasuv. We are
obligated to kill them, because we are specifically told to do so.

So I agree that with RZS that even if a time machine gave us knowledge of
the future that was as clear as Hashem's knowledge of it, we would still be
bound by the Torah, and just as He would not kill someone until after he
deserves it, we may not either.

But on the other hand, as RLL points out, wartime is different, and Halacha
acknowledges that. I have no military experience, but to simply leave an
enemy in the field without some sort of security on him? Even an injured
soldier - either capture him or kill him, but even I understand the danger
of leaving him to his own devices! War is hell, unfortunately, and the
reality is that this injured soldier may never have done a sin in his life.
But he is on the enemy's side, and there's no telling what damage might
accrue to our side if he makes it back to his camp alive. Am I mistaken, or
can our soldier simply kill the enemy on that basis alone?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Do THIS before eating carbs (every time)
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage
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The Shulchan Aruch Harav says the Bracha on  Netilas Yadayim upon waking,
even before Alos Hashachar.  The students of the GR"A follow the Rosh and
say the bracha upon washing in immediate preparation for the Amidah,
perhaps even Shma.  An early riser can minimize the problem by eating bread
after the early Netilas Yadayim.  This minimizes the problem to possible
Bracha lvatala upon saying  the blessing moments before Shacharis.

Alos Hashachar is much more debatable than most believe. Look up the 1930s
biography of the Maharil (@  Hebrewbooks.com). In the 1930's the former
Rabbi of Columbus Ohio Rabbi Greenwald  ?Z"l strongly condemned visitors
who refused to pray with his 6:30 Shacharis Minyan, based on Alos Hashachar
90 minutes before sunrise, preferring to pray Biyechidus closer to sunrise
or as Vatikin.  Rav Henkin replied that at the most 60 minutes, but not 90.
(Why Rav Henkin's grandsons didn't pick this up I do not know.)  Rav Elya
Meir Bloch of Telz, the likely "suspect", replied that as many do Melacha
after a mere 30 minutes post-sunset, that is the approximate earliest
possible time for first light. Hei'ir Pnei Mizrach - the sun in evidence
enough to sparkle in reflection - cannot be 90 minutes pre-sunrise.

What works for a Rosh Yeshivah, who visits a place on rare occasions, may
not work for the town Rav struggling to hold together a Minyan when sunrise
can be as late as 8AM, due to the time zone. Both answers, or all three,
can be construed as true. ?

-- 
David Wacholder

Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
dwachol...@optonline.net
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Someone brought me a copy of Torah To-Go  June 2014 - Shavuot 
5774.  It has a section titled Practical Guide for Shavuos based on 
the halachic rulings of Rabbi Herschel Schachter.

On pages 44 - 45 it says "R. Soloveichik and many other poskim 
maintain that it is better to daven without a minyan before sof zman 
Kriat Shema (the end of the period during which one may recite Kriat 
Shema)  rather than daven with a minyan after the time has elapsed."

According to http://www.myzmanim.com/search.aspx sof zman Krias Shema 
in Brooklyn during the next few days is about 9:10 am according the 
GRA and the Baal  Ha Tanya.   Many minyanim start a 9 am in 
Brooklyn.  They certainly will not get to Shema before this 
zman.   Is one to deduce from this that it is better to daven earlier 
at home than to daven with a minyan starting at 9 am at this time of 
year?  And if this is indeed the case,  then aren't those minyanim 
that start at 9 at this time of year encouraging people to not follow 
the halacha?

I know that it is common at this time of year to announce at Maariv 
the night before that one should say Krias Shema before coming to 
shul the next morning.  Am I to deduce that this suggestion is not 
really proper?

YL
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On Tue, Jun 03, 2014 at 01:47:58PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: Someone brought me a copy of Torah To-Go...
: halachic rulings of Rabbi Herschel Schachter.
: 
: On pages 44 - 45 it says "R. Soloveichik and many other poskim
: maintain that it is better to daven without a minyan before sof zman
: Kriat Shema (the end of the period during which one may recite Kriat
: Shema)  rather than daven with a minyan after the time has elapsed."

However, according to the majority (MA, Peri Megadim, MB, AhS), it's
better to say Shema without berakhos before the minyan gets to it,
and daven with a minyan.

Vekhein nohagim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

I think my previous post in this thread was too wordy and not clear enough, so I offer this:

1) If the focus is on the other person, either to punish him for something
that he hasn't done yet, or to rescue him from becoming the person who will
do it, we must *not* kill him. That's the lesson of "baasher hu sham."

2) But if the focus is on protecting *ourselves*, then all we need is a
reasonable safek pikuach nefesh. This is not the place to define
"reasonable", but we certainly don't need the level of certainty provided
by a time machine.

3) All of the above is trumped by Gezeras Hakasuv, such as Amaleki babies, or Ben Sorer Umoreh, or Psak Beis Din.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

.   Is one to deduce from this that it is better to daven earlier at home
than to daven with a minyan starting at 9 am at this time of year?  And if
this is indeed the case,  then aren't those minyanim that start at 9 at
this time of year encouraging people to not follow the halacha?
> 
> I know that it is common at this time of year to announce at Maariv
> the night before that one should say Krias Shema before coming to shul
> the next morning.	Am I to deduce that this suggestion is not really
> proper?
> 
> YL 
> __________________________

Your deduction is correct According to the psak of r'ybs based iirc on the
linkage of kriat shma and its associated brachot ,same rule for maariv
before tzeit. 
However my impression is that this approach has only been accepted in some brisker circles but not by "the olam"
Kol tuv 
Joel rich  
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On 3/06/2014 1:47 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Someone brought me a copy of Torah To-Go  June 2014 - Shavuot 5774.
> It has a section titled Practical Guide for Shavuos based on the
> halachic rulings of Rabbi Herschel Schachter.
>
> On pages 44 - 45 it says "R. Soloveichik and many other poskim
> maintain that it is better to daven without a minyan before sof/zman
> Kriat Shema /(the end of the period during which one may recite Kriat
> Shema)  rather than daven with a minyan after the time has elapsed."
>
> [...] Many minyanim start a 9 am in Brooklyn.  They certainly will
> not get to Shema before this zman.   Is one to deduce from this that
> it is better to daven earlier at home than to daven with a minyan
> starting at 9 am at this time of year?

According to the poskim you quoted, it would appear so.


> And if this is indeed the case,  then aren't those minyanim that
> start at 9 at this time of year encouraging people to not follow the
> halacha?

Only if they accept that psak.  I assume they don't.


> I know that it is common at this time of year to announce at Maariv
> the night before that one should say Krias Shema before coming to
> shul the next morning.  Am I to deduce that this suggestion is not
> really proper?

Again, you seem to take it for granted they accept the psak you quoted.
The most logical assumption is that they don't, in which case their suggestion
is entirely proper.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 3/06/2014 6:38 AM, David Wacholder via Avodah wrote:
> Rav Elya Meir Bloch of Telz, the likely "suspect", replied that as
> many do Melacha after a mere 30 minutes post-sunset, that is the
> approximate earliest possible time for first light. Hei'ir Pnei
> Mizrach - the sun in evidence enough to sparkle in reflection - cannot
> be 90 minutes pre-sunrise.

This report of his view doesn't make sense.  Tzeis Hakochavim is defined
(in hilchos bedikas chometz) as "when there is still some daylight left".
It has to be closer to sunset than "misheyakir" is to sunrise.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 11:00:34PM +0100, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
: I confess, to change track slightly, I suspect part of the problem is that
: when it comes to women's shul going (or any shul going) we are often not
: prepared to acknowledge the real issue.  Which is about social connection
: versus social isolation...

Along similar lines but to a very different conclusion...

When organizing a minyan for an organization where many of the attendees
not only are used to Egalitatian services, but felt that a mechitzah was
ideologically wrong -- a violation of kavod haberi'os, etc... So this
topic came up before, and I had a chane to think of this possibilitiy...

From a historical perspective, mechitzah was a feminist innovation.
Until then, women weren't in the room at all. (Barring gomel, qaddish,
and a few other exceptions.) This was a way to have them in the room
without technically violating halakhah.

Maybe Anshei Keneses haGdolah were intentionally setting up a Boys'
Club. That the point of minyan and shul includes a bunch of men bonding
as a community in a way that only happens in fraternal settings.

For a couple of centuries, Freemasonry actually succeeded in teaching
middos (Aristotilian "vitures") to its members using the format of
rituals in a men-only club. And as a COUNTER-example, C and R noticed
that soon after ordaining women and making services fully egalitarian,
their men disenagaged. Both the clergy and the regular attendance are
now far more women than men.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 49th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        7 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Malchus: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            goal of perfect unity?

On 6/3/2014 5:57 AM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> 1) If the focus is on the other person, either to punish him for
> something that he hasn't done yet, or to rescue him from becoming the
> person who will do it, we must *not* kill him. That's the lesson of
> "baasher hu sham."

> 2) But if the focus is on protecting *ourselves*, then all we need
> is a reasonable safek pikuach nefesh. This is not the place to define
> "reasonable", but we certainly don't need the level of certainty provided
> by a time machine.

> 3) All of the above is trumped by Gezeras Hakasuv, such as Amaleki babies,
> or Ben Sorer Umoreh, or Psak Beis Din.

I would add to #3 any halakhic imperative. Not just gezerat hakatuv. 

Such as Tov she-ba-Goyim.

Shavuot is a great time to glean Torah truths.
The following are some areas that I reviewed 
but with a fresh insight.  In the mishna of
Bameh Madlikin Rami Bar Chama projects an
equation between ner Shabbat and ner mikdash.
Shabbat refers to time (zman) and mikdash, to 
space (makom). Makom and zman have often 
been referred to as the 2 fundamental constituents
of reality. Heschel, in the prologue to his work on
Shabbat describes technical civilization as ?expressive
of man?s desire to gain in space at the expense of time?.
The contemporary mind is preoccupied with objects of 
makom while simultaneously negelecting zman. Material
goods, money, cars, etc. represent a concern for objects
in space. Ideas, concepts, truths values, etc. (all of which 
exist in time alone) are secondary and given little attention
by man, generally speaking. Why this neglect of time for 
the sake of space? The reason is simple and yet profound:
Space is comforting because it can be conquered, possessed,
and it can be had. Time is frightening because it cannot be 
controlled. In the face of makom, man is powerful. In the face
of zman, man is weak and vulnerable. Time is really the source
of man?s dread. One has but to think of eternity and he will 
become uneasy with an awareness of his own brevity.

So it is that the burning flame, symbolic of kedushat zman, 
becomes the primary symbol of kedushat Shabbat. As well, this
very same symbol is introduced into the sanctuary to remind us
that kedushat makom is dependent upon and subordinate to 
kedushat zman.

A cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

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Would anyone know of any seforim that clarify Shulchan Aruch, Even Ha-Ezer,
hilchos gittin?
Thank you.

Yaacov David Shulman
Translator; Editor; Ghostwriter
Specializing in Torah and literary texts
shulman-writer.com
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The suggestion is proper: if they are davening at a minyan that begins at 9:00 a.m., it is appropriate to say shema beforehand.

Of course, in Brooklyn the other option isn't only davening earlier without a minyan but to daven in one of the many minyanim that start earlier.

As for what to do when faced with the question of davening by oneself
earlier or with a minyan ?but after zeman Kerias Shema, this is a machlokes
ha-poskim. Rav Schachters paskens like the GRA that saying shema with its
brachos earlier is preferable. However, I don't know if it is mention there
but Rav Schachter would often cite the practice of Rav Chaim Soloveitchik
to then wait silently after brichos kerias shema to daven amida with the
tzibbur.?


________________________________
 From: Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu>
To: avo...@aishdas.org 
Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 1:47 PM
Subject: Better to Daven without a Minyan?
 


Someone brought me a copy of Torah To-Go? June 2014 - Shavuot
5774.? It has a section titled Practical Guide for Shavuos based on
the halachic rulings of Rabbi Herschel Schachter. 

On pages 44 - 45 it says "R. Soloveichik and many other poskim
maintain that it is better to daven without a minyan before sofzman
Kriat Shema (the end of the period during which one may recite Kriat
Shema)? rather than daven with a minyan after the time has
elapsed."

According to http://www.myzmanim.com/search.aspx sof zman Krias Shema in Brooklyn
during the next few days is about 9:10 am according the GRA and the
Baal? Ha Tanya.?? Many minyanim start a 9 am in
Brooklyn.? They certainly will not get to Shema before this
zman.?? Is one to deduce from this that it is better to daven
earlier at home than to daven with a minyan starting at 9 am at this time
of year?? And if this is indeed the case,? then aren't those
minyanim that start at 9 at this time of year encouraging people to not
follow the halacha?

I know that it is common at this time of year to announce at Maariv the
night before that one should say Krias Shema before coming to shul the
next morning.? Am I to deduce that this suggestion is not really
proper?

YL
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