Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 110

Thu, 17 Jul 2014

• 1. Re: shabbat in Alaska (Kenneth Miller)
• 2. Re: Shabbat in Alaska (Avi Goldstein)
• 3. Re: The case for a flat earth (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 4. Re: midianite survivors (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: midianite survivors ()
• 6. Re: the International Dateline and the shape of the earth (Avi Goldstein)
• 7. Re: Shabbat in Alaska (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Shabbat in Alaska (Kenneth Miller)
• 9. Re: midianite survivors (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: the International Dateline and the shape of the earth (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: midianite survivors (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: The case for a flat earth (Arie Folger)
• 13. Re: the International Dateline and the shape of the earth (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: midianite survivors (Zev Sero)
• 15. Rashi (was: midianite survivors) (Allan Engel)

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> As to the flat 72 minutes, making them zemaniot changes them
> according to the season not much according to the latitude which
> is the serious problem. The idea of changing 72 minutes to angles
> of the sun below the horizon is due to ...

An even more serious problem with the idea of "72 minutes zmanios" is that
it will cause the duration of twilight in spring and autumn to be midway
between that of winter and summer. But those who are familiar with the
calculations know that while twilight is indeed shorter in winter than in
summer, it is even shorter still in spring and autumn.

Example: 8.5 degrees below the horizon in Vilna: This is shortest, at 53
minutes, around March 10. It starts taking longer, and reaches a maximum of
almost 93 minutes around June 21. Then it gets shorter, hitting 53 minutes
again around October 2. It gets longer again, reaching a winter maximum of
65 minutes around December 21, when it starts getting shorter again.

Note that the winter maximum is not much of a maximum, really. It is only
12 minutes longer than the spring and autumn minimums, while being 28
minutes shorter than the summer maximum. This reality might have confused
the authors of the "72 minutes zmanios" shita: The winter twilight is not
much different than the spring and fall twilights, and maybe that's why
they didn't notice that it is counter-intuitively longer.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

Interesting (and somewhat scary!) tidbit: I am told that when Russia owned
Alaska, the territory followed the Russian date, so that Saturday in Russia
and in Alaska fell on the same date. When the United States purchased
Alaska, the date was switched to U.S. dating. Saturday was now Friday.
This means that if there were Jews in Alaska before 1867, they kept Shabbat
on what is today Sunday.

Avi Goldstein
--
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140717/2576f38d/attachment-0001.htm>

On 07/17/2014 04:49 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> In addition I again argue that RT held the earth to be flat...
>                          IMHO (and Prof. Sternberg) this follows from 
> his statement that Rebbe is correct against the sages of the world ...

> Interestingly the latitude of Vilna is 54.6833 deg N. According to the 
> tables in Leo Levi there is no 72 minute dusk from May 22 to July 27 ! 

I have given shiurim on this topic more times than I can remember. That
the sun, according to RT, goes behind a dome at night proves nothing
as to the shape of the earth. The dome is a semi-circular cap on a
spherical world. RT himself never argues a flat (no pun intended,
right?) 72 minutes.

As for the Gra, see http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%2016%20Krakowski.pdf
footnote 8 that it is much more likely that the Gra was of the opinion
that the world was round.

KT,
YGB

On 17/07/2014 6:45 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 01:10:19AM -0400, via Avodah wrote:
> : Rashi says that Tzipporah was referred to an "isha kushis" as a euphemistic
> : way of saying she was beautiful -- so beautiful that her beauty was as
> : undeniable as the blackness of a Kushi.  (Rashi says that Miriam was
> : criticizing Moshe for separating from Tzipporah.) ...
>
> I'm not sure that's peshat, though. Rashi invokes gematria (kushis = yefas
> mar'eh). His source (not for the gematria part) is the Sifri and MQ 16b.

Rashi only ever gives peshat, and those medrashim that are necessary for peshat.
When he does give a medrash, he omits any part of it that's not necessary for
peshat.


> No matter how you slice it, the logic of the narrative is that Tzipporah
> and Kush were on the same side of Egypt. Moshe was in Kush and near
> Tzipporah, and it's unlikely he went through Mitzrayim to get from one
> to the other.

So how did he get to Har Sinai without first encountering the Jewish camp
in Refidim?


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

 

From: Micha Berger via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

>>What I'm confused by is why  people find it such an outrageous idea to
think that Midian had control of  two unconnected pieces of territory.
I didn't think it would warrant so much  debate.>>

-- 
Micha  Berger             

 
>>>>>
 
Actually it is quite reasonable to assume that there were two or more  
different tribes of Midianites who lived in different places.
 
I read somewhere -- maybe here on Avodah? -- that when Avraham sent his  
non-Sarah-borne children away to the East, Midian was reluctant to leave  -- 
he was in some respects closest to Avraham spiritually -- hence, his  
descendant Yisro was close in spiritual terms -- and so while the  other sons 
headed east all the way to India, Midian kind of stuck  around in the 
neighborhood of E'Y.
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140717/21aaaede/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <r...@aishdas.org>
wrote:
> See Gilyonei HaShas to Shabbos 75a d.h. Minayin Shemitzvah (at
> http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22172&;st=&pgnum=28) who deals
> with this issue and brings the evidence that it was known to Chazal and
> many Rishonim that the earth is spherical. As the counter-evidence in
> the works cited by RET is largely based on later, erroneous sources and
> contrived extrapolation, I don't feel I need to respond to them.

My friend R' Yosef Gavriel absolutely has his facts wrong. First, he is
reading the Gilyonei HaShas incorrectly. All the GH says is
that the Rambam and the Zohar, both hailing from medieval times, centuries
after the Gemara was redacted, held that the world was a sphere. (The third
source GH cites, Tosafos in Avodah Zarah 41a, only says that the world's
covering is a ball; Tosafos clearly states that the land itself is
"ki'k'arah," like a plate, that is, flat.)
There are numerous proofs that Chazal held the world to be flat. Among
those proofs is the fact (proof by omission) that there is no discussion of
the International Dateline in the Gemara, a connection that apparently is
being missed in the discussion here.
The only Rishon who evidently understands the Gemara to hold that the world
is spherical is the Baal HaMaor. But in his explanation of a very difficult
Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 20b), the Baal HaMaor is probably reading into the
Gemara the somewhat more advanced scientific knowledge prevailing in the
12th century. Rashi's entirely different explanation of this Gemara hints
not at all regarding a round world. Indeed, it assumes a flat earth, and
that is indeed Rashi's opinion elsewhere.
At any rate, it is inconceivable that Chazal would neglect to discuss the
shape of the earth, given the colossal halachic consequences, unless they
simply did not know.
Re the Chazon Ish, his view (based on the Baal HaMaor) is not mind-boggling
only because one could go from the land to the ocean and thereby change
dates. It is mind-boggling because, say, on the northern Australian coast,
containing countless oceanic indentations, one could literally keep walking
west and change dates every few minutes!
Rav Kasher's view of the dateline, radically different from all the others,
seems to work best; in my understanding, the shape of the earth is
irrelevant to his opinion.
Avi Goldstein

-- 
Avi Goldstein
Five Towns Nissan
Cell: 516-526-1925
Fax: 516-371-0498
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140717/d5c4389a/attachment-0001.htm>

On 17/07/2014 1:16 PM, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
> Interesting (and somewhat scary!) tidbit: I am told that when Russia
> owned Alaska, the territory followed the Russian date, so that
> Saturday in Russia and in Alaska fell on the same date. When the
> United States purchased Alaska, the date was switched to U.S. dating.
> Saturday was now Friday.

Yes, this is well-known and should be obvious after a bit of thought.
There was no official dateline back then; colonies just followed their
home country.


> This means that if there were Jews in Alaska before 1867, they kept
> Shabbat on what is today Sunday.

Why would it mean that?

An even more radical example is the Philippines, which until the 1840s
followed America rather than Asia.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

R' Avi Goldstein mentioned how Russia switched sides of the Date line in 1867. That's not an isolated case.

The Pacific island of Samoa had been on the west side of the date line, but
moved to the east side by repeating Monday July 4 1892. Almost 120 years
later, they moved back to the west side by skipping Friday December 30
2011. I don't know if there are any Jews in Samoa, but they do have a
Seventh Day Adventist community, some of whom have been observing Sunday as
their Sabbath ever since that missed Friday.

All of the above is from the Wikipedia article "International Date Line".
(Actually, I also remember reading about it in the newspapers as it
happened.) The Wiki article mentions some other side-switching too.

Akiva Miller

PS: It wasn't just the newspapers that mentioned it at the time. We ourselves here on Avodah discussed it in Jan 2012. Go to Google and type
Samoa site:aishdas.org

.
____________________________________________________________
Odd Carb-Hormone Trick
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53c8250df176b250d537bst02vuc

On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 03:22:11PM -0400, Avi Goldstein wrote:
: True, but it is much more likely to explain the Yisro/Bilaam/Iyov Midrash
: as non-literal than it is to create a second Midian.

The theory was floated because it helps resolve the contradictory data
we have about Midian, regardless of any one medrash.

In fact, this conversation started because after seeing lists like your
earlier post of such problems, I thought it was a popular notion that
there were two Midyans and threw it as a given into the question of how
Midyan had survivors after the war. It certainly wasn't my own chiddush,
in any case.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
mi...@aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson

On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 03:00:28PM -0400, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
: There are numerous proofs that Chazal held the world to be flat. Among
: those proofs is the fact (proof by omission) that there is no discussion of
: the International Dateline in the Gemara, a connection that apparently is
: being missed in the discussion here.

It was indeed discussed here. Given the size the Greeks thought the world
was and their not knowing about the Americas, no one would be trying to
circumnavigate the globe. They simly didn't know about Japan (or if the
line is 90deg from Y-m, New Zealand and Indochina) to raise the question.

So there is really no proof from silence here. It wasn't a reasonable
question for them to explore.

: The only Rishon who evidently understands the Gemara to hold that the world
: is spherical is the Baal HaMaor. But in his explanation of a very difficult
: Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 20b), the Baal HaMaor is probably reading into the
: Gemara the somewhat more advanced scientific knowledge prevailing in the
: 12th century...

Pashut peshat, without Rabbeinu Tam for the moment, is that nir'eh
divreihem midivreinu is like nir'eh li, and Rebbe is saying that the
Ptolemaic universe makes more sense than the Persian model. Rabbeinu Tam's
idea that "nir'eh" means looks like but is still wrong is really a dochaq.

We are talking about idea that predate Anshei Keneses haGdolah, and didn't
require 12th cent science. Regardless of any details beyond that the BhM
may ascribe to them.

And for that matter, RYGB's assertion that the Persian Model (also
that of chakhmei Yisrael, at least until this point, in which the
sun goes over a semispherical sky at night) also presumes a round earth
also seems to hold. The debate would apparently be more about whether
is was a spheroid or a hemisphere.

Quoting RGS <http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet4.html>:
    However, when R' Yehuda tried to determine the length of time between
    day and night, he assumed the astronomy of the sages of Israel. The
    process of sunset we described above, in which the sun gradually
    disappears and then the light as well, was seen by R' Yehuda as
    the travel of the sun through the firmament. The sun, and then the
    light, gradually disappear as the sun travels from below to above
    the firmament. This process, the time between sunset and sufficient
    darkness for stars to be seen, takes the time equivalent of four mil,
    R' Yehuda tells us in Pesachim 94a. Clearly, R' Yehuda was basing his
    calculations according to an understanding that Rebbe attested is
    incorrect. Yet, R' Yehuda's calculations are the basis for modern
    halacha! If Rebbe was willing to reject a false understanding,
    how can we follow this same incorrect view as normative halacha?

    The answer, as given by the Minchat Cohen (1:10), is very simple. R'
    Yehuda observed certain natural phenomena that we can all see on a
    daily basis. He saw the sun set, the indirect sunlight dissipate, and
    darkness ascend until the stars became visible. While he interpreted
    these phenomena based on his pre-Ptolemaic astronomy, his observations
    are still valid. Stars come out at the same time regardless of one's
    astronomical views. We do not follow R' Yehuda's astronomy; after all,
    Rebbe rejected it. However, we do follow R' Yehuda's observations. In
    fact, a similar understanding of R' Yehuda's approach was offered
    by the Tosefot Rid on Shabbat 34b in the early 13th century. He
    follows the same understanding of R' Yehuda as given above - which
    is the view of Rabbeinu Tam - but explains the times as reflecting
    different stages of the sun's setting.

It is also very worth seeing <http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_shape.html>.

But on our original topic, I think it's important to note that given
that they had both theory and obseration, this wasn't that the numbers
emerge from the theory. Rather, would only subscribe to models of the
universe that fit the observed zemanim.

: Re the Chazon Ish, his view...

R Eliezer / Dr Leon Ehrenpreis z"l had an interesting explanation based
on the machloqesin between R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua about beri'ah.

If beri'ah was in the spring, and Adam was made fully grown, then the
sun would have een made at noon over the even shesiah. But if beri'ah
was in the fall, and the egg came before the chicken, then it would
have been dawn.

If one assumes that the entire world got sunlight for the first time on
day 4, this would justify a machloqes about whether the date line is 90deg
(possibly plus the rest of the landmass of Asia) or 180deg east of Y-m.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 03:01:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: So how did he get to Har Sinai without first encountering the Jewish camp
: in Refidim?

Why would he avoid it? He was trying to avoid Par'oh, not Goshen. But
naniach that it would still be strange to e headed in that direction
altogether...

It is one thing for Moshe to intentionally cross the country he is
on the lam from, it's another for Moshe to chase a lamb there. <grin>
Kidding aside (<rimshot>), this would explain why chazal go through
such lengths to say the trip was unintentional, or even supernatural.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

I wonder, is it so clear that Chazal and Rishonim were astronomical and
geological discussing facts, or could they have been relating to
experience, spirituality, and what others thought?

In the gemara in Pesachim, where the conclusion seems to favor chakhmei
'umot ha'olam's position, there is clearly an attempt to explain phenomena.
RMB suggested that perhaps, instead of explaining what is, it was meant to
explain what appears, as they may have been less interested in a for them
yet unprovable what is. (By the way, I submitted this question to a
historian of science and am eagerly awaiting his comments)

However, regarding the gemara in 'Avoda Zara, is the gemara there really
interested in what the world looks like, or what those who create one
representation or another think? I mean, I consider it pretty obvious that
the ruling that a person holding a globe is an idol is a reference to the
mythology of Atlas supporting the world. It is totally irrelevant whether
the world is round or flat for this ruling, which is really about the
intent of those making and owning an Atlas statue.

By extension, is Rabbenu Tam really interested in facts, or in thought
behind rulings?

KT,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Wie entstand und was bedeutet der bevorstehender Fastentag des 17. Tammus
* Do Not Forget, Do Not Shove it Under the Carpet
* ORD-Seminar in Regensburg
* Nach welchem Prinzip sind die f?nf B?cher Mose organisiert?
* R?ckblick auf Limmud.de
* In the Paris Jewish community, more women than men are recalcitrant
spouses.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140717/a53e2948/attachment-0001.htm>

On 17/07/2014 3:00 PM, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
>
> There are numerous proofs that Chazal held the world to be flat. Among
> those proofs is the fact (proof by omission) that there is no discussion of
> the International Dateline in the Gemara, a connection that apparently is
> being missed in the discussion here.

This is no proof at all.  Nobody gave any thought to a dateline in those days,
even those who knew the earth was round, because there was no point.  Who cared
exactly where in the ocean the date "officially" changed?  If someone were
somehow to miraculously cross the ocean and circumnavigate the globe, when he
got to the other side he'd obviously have to change dates.  On the way?  Who
cares?  If you're going to posit something so science-fictional as a ship
capable of crossing the ocean, you may as well go all the way and posit a flying
ship that can make the crossing in less than a day, so one needn't ever be at
sea on Shabbos!

Actually, even for several centuries *after* America and Hawaii were discovered,
there *still* wasn't any thought given to establishing an official dateline,
until the late 19th century.  See "Around the World in Eighty Days"; if there
had been an official dateline when it was written, it couldn't have had the
ending it does.  That's certainly not proof that they thought the earth was flat!

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 17/07/2014 4:56 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 03:01:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> : So how did he get to Har Sinai without first encountering the Jewish camp
> : in Refidim?
>
> Why would he avoid it? He was trying to avoid Par'oh, not Goshen.

Yisro wasn't trying to avoid anyone.


> But naniach that it would still be strange to e headed in that direction
> altogether...

It's the direction the Jews were in!   He was heading from his home to
Refidim, and Har Sinai was on the way.  That wouldn't make sense if he was
coming from Africa, and travelled through Egypt; he'd be following in the
Jews' path, not coming towards them.




-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

This is quite an incredible claim, and one that even his grandson the
Rashbam openly disputes.


On 17 July 2014 20:01, Zev Sero via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>
> Rashi only ever gives peshat, and those medrashim that are necessary for
> peshat.
> When he does give a medrash, he omits any part of it that's not necessary
> for
> peshat.
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20140717/8f57eab6/attachment.htm>

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)