Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 115

Wed, 30 Jul 2014

• 1. Re: hishtadlus (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: flat earth [applied to Kabala?] (David Wacholder)
• 3. Re: hishtadlus (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. Re: flat earth [applied to Kabala?] (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: flat earth (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: hishtadlus (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: how hashgacha works (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: hishtadlus (Arie Folger)
• 9. Watching Israeli TV When it is Shabbos in EY (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Flat Earth (and Kabala) (David Wacholder)
• 11. Common Kashrus Misconceptions (Prof. Levine)

On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 08:30:14AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: is an army/iron dome  doing anything, or is it all Hashem?
: why did Hashem require an army to conquer Canaan ?
: why could that one get credit , but not today?

RnTK, RAM and RJR attacked one aspect of this question, why G-d created
a world that requires hishtadlus.

Lisa took it in a different direction when she wrote about hakol tzafui
vehareshus nesunah, that somehow bechirah and hashgachah work out,
and we can't really know how.

A less modern approach (ie it assumes less-than-total hashgachah peratis)
to the second issue is given by the Or haChaim, when he explains the
logic behind the brothers deciding to throw Yoseif into a pit rather
than kill him outright. There is value to minimizing the amoung of neis
required. It is possible for a person to earn the HP necessary to be
saved al derekh hateva, but the more unnatural the saving would have to
be, the less likely he is to merit it. And so the brothers thought that
Yoseif being killed by their sword might not prove his guilt, just that
he didn't earn a miracle. However, the brothers felt an innocent Yoseif
would definitely merit being saved from a pit of nsakes and scorpions,
and his death would only be if he were indeed guilty.

Perhaps the role of the Iron Dome is to reduce Israel's need
from being saved from the sword to being saved from the pit.

Or as the old story ends: "I sent you the rowboat, the Coast Guard
cutter and the helicopter, what more did you expect Me to do?"

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Likutei Torah of "Baal HaTanya" on Parshas Tazria uses the "world-picture"
of Rabi Avraham Bar Chiyya as an analog to Heavenly Forces changing the
World Below [sun positioned below and toward Southern Hemisphere heats it
up despite lack of population].    This is fascinating, though admittedly
not proof that he accepted the sun offset to the south as fact. Still he
uses multiple concepts that sound to me like quotes from Rabi Avraham Bar
Chiyya.

He also uses Is'aruta D'l'tata - human choice to come closer to Hashem - as
an analog and sublimation [admittedly the wrong word] of Isha Mazraas
Techila Yoledes Zachar.  Ish.... is compared to the Heavens initiating
spiritual energy.
Certainly his explanation is totally non-biological; he may believe in
multiple worlds which have multiple truths.

He was after Tycho Brahe and certainly was modern in his astronomical
knowledge.

I leave it to others to interpret his approaches.

-- 
David Wacholder
Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
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R' Micha Berger wrote:

> There is value to minimizing the amount of neis required. It is
> possible for a person to earn the HP necessary to be saved al derekh
> hateva, but the more unnatural the saving would have to be, the less
> likely he is to merit it.

I have heard this to be a reason why some people avoid mentioning the name
of the specific disease that a relative has. When the general community is
unaware of the details, a refuah would not be such a glaringly big neis.
But if everyone knows the details, only a major neis will cure him.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
NEVER eat this fish
Also discover 15 foods that DAMAGE your heart health
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53d7ee2880a3f6e28014est01vuc

On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 02:24:44PM -0400, David Wacholder via Avodah wrote:
: Likutei Torah of "Baal HaTanya" on Parshas Tazria uses the "world-picture"
: of Rabi Avraham Bar Chiyya as an analog to Heavenly Forces changing the
: World Below [sun positioned below and toward Southern Hemisphere heats it
: up despite lack of population].    This is fascinating, though admittedly
: not proof that he accepted the sun offset to the south as fact...

The north is called tzafon.

Rabbeinu Bachya (Devarim 3:27) says this is because the sun is always
in the southern half of the sky, thus tzafun from the north. (When in
the northern hemisphere, including EY.) BDB and other secular sources
offer a similar etymology.

But Qabbalah and some of the Aristotilians both heavily invoke the
Copernican model, extending the concentric circles beyond the 7th raqia
and into metaphores (?) for the metaphysical.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

From RGS (Nov 2001) <http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_shape.html>

    Chazal's View of the World

    ... Historically, there were four approaches (this and much of this article was taken from an article by R. Menachem Kasher). 
    
    1) The earth is flat and is resting on some sort of foundation. 
    2) The earth is flat but is floating in the air or nothingness. 
    3) The earth is round but its "bottom" half is immersed in water. 
    4) The earth is round and both sides are inhabitable.
    
    The First View
    
    No rabbi could ever hold the first view, that the earth is flat and
    is supported by something. After all, the Bible says in Job 26:7 ...

    The Second, Third and Fourth Views

    What was the sages' view on this topic? Rav Saadia Gaon is quoted
    by the Ri of Barcelona in his commentary on Sefer Yetzirah (p. 254a)
    as saying that a minority (miktzat) of sages believed that the earth
    is flat. We can see this best in Pesachim 94b. ...

Although we know Rabbeinu Tam doesn't agree with RSG on Rebbe's meaning.

    This very argument between the Jewish sages and the Gentile wise
    men was raised again in Bereshit Rabbah 6:8, only this time between
    R. Yehuda bar Ilai and the sages. One side argued that the sun sets
    going up, implying that the sun at night goes above the sky. The
    other side argued that the sun sets going down, implying that the
    sun at night goes around the earth. (Who said what depends on the
    edition. Compare the Venice and Vilna editions.) R' Yochanan then
    said that there is a proof to either side and R' Shimon bar Yochai is
    quoted as saying that we cannot determine which side is correct. In
    other words, R' Yochanan and R' Shimon bar Yochai were not sure
    whether the earth is round or flat.

    We find the following in the Talmud Yerushalmi, Avoda Zara 3:1: ...

We saw R' Yonah saying Alexander was high enough to see the earth is
like a ball.

    ... The seas, however, are flat according to R' Yonah, similar to the
    water in a bowl that flattens out on top despite the roundness of the
    bowl. This would be the fourth view we mentioned above. Alternatively,
    he may have believed that the ball of the earth is enclosed in a bowl
    of water like the third view. This Yerushalmi is quoted approvingly
    by Tosafot, Avoda Zara 41a sv kakadur. That is why, Tosafot explain,
    there were some pagans who worshipped balls. The ball represented
    the earth, and we know that the earth was a common theme in ancient
    paganism. Bamidbar Rabbah 13:17 says that the world is like a
    ball. Ramban on Numbers 7:12 quotes this midrash and seems to add
    that the world is surrounded by water, like the third view above.

    In Bereshit Rabbah 63:14 we find the following anonymous
    statement. "'Then Yaakov gave to Esav bread and lentil stew.' Just
    like a lentil is made like a wheel, so the world is made like a
    wheel." While the term "wheel" could mean that the earth is flat
    but round like a wheel, the comparison to a lentil tells us that
    the implication is that the world is spherical. Similarly, in Esther
    Rabbah 1:7 R' Pinchas tells us, "The world is made like a crown."

    Chagiga 12a:

        R' Elazar said: Adam was [so tall that he stood] from the earth
        to the sky, as it says (Deuteronomy 4:32) "From the day that G-d
        created Adam on the earth [and to the end of the heaven]." Once
        he sinned, G-d put His hands on him and made him small, as it
        says (Psalms 139:5) "You have hedged me behind and before." Rav
        Yehuda said in the name of Rav: Adam was [so tall that when he
        lay down he was] from one end of the world to the other end,
        as it says (Deuteronomy 4:32) "From the day that G-d created
        Adam on the earth"...

    Rav said that when Adam lay down, he was so tall that he reached
    from one end of the world to the next. This is said by some to imply
    that the world is flat. After all, a round world has no end. However,
    this is most likely a midrashic exaggeration similar to R' Eliezer's
    view that Adam reached up to the sky. As the Yad Ramah on Sanhedrin
    38a explains, R' Eliezer was just trying to aggadically say that
    Adam was very tall. Similarly, Rav was trying to say that Adam was
    very tall and his use of the terms "end of the world" could easily
    have referred to the horizon, i.e. the end of the visible world,
    to the inhabited world, or to some indefinable far away place.

    The Zohar on Vayikra p. 10a says something relevant. While one can
    never be sure whether the Zohar is speaking of the physical world
    or the spiritual world, we will quote it anyway with the reader
    forewarned. The Zohar says, "In the book of Rav Hamnuna Sava it is
    explained that all the world rolls in a circle like a ball... There
    are places in the world that when it is light for those on one side
    of the sphere it is dark for those on the other."

    What we have seen is that there were different opinions among
    the sages about the shape of the earth. While, as Rav Saadia
    Gaon said, only some (miktzat) believed that the world is flat,
    there were attempts to prove the shape from observation of heating
    patterns. Others disputed these proofs and remained uncertain.

    The International Date Line
    
    A corollary to the roundness of the earth is something mentioned in
    the Zohar. There is always light someplace in the world and darkness
    someplace else. It is always day somewhere. This concept assumes
    the roundness of the world because according to those who believe
    that the world is flat, the sun travels back to the east above the
    sky when it is night for the whole world (because the sun is hidden
    above the sky). The Gemara in Nazir 7a also seems to say that day
    and night occur at the same time, which implies that the earth is
    round. See the glosses of Maharatz Chayes on that passage.
    ...

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 06:54:43PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
:> There is value to minimizing the amount of neis required. It is
:> possible for a person to earn the HP necessary to be saved al derekh
:> hateva, but the more unnatural the saving would have to be, the less
:> likely he is to merit it.

: I have heard this to be a reason why some people avoid mentioning
: the name of the specific disease that a relative has. When the general
: community is unaware of the details, a refuah would not be such a
: glaringly big neis. But if everyone knows the details, only a major neis
: will cure him.

You are making a different -- although no less valid -- distinction than
what I was attributing to the Or haChaim.

The Or haChaim talks about bechirah and Hashem empowering people to
do things that have effects. Perhaps we could say he is speaking in terms
of teva vs neis.

You are speaking of neis nigleh vs neis nistar.

Mind you, in a Desslerian world, hainu hakh -- teva is simply the extreme
of neis nistar. But I don't think that's where the OhC is holding.

Along those lines... I hear R' Freifeld explain why we don't count
people and berakhah is only bedavar hane'elam min ha'ayin in the terms
RAM raises.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 07:18:49AM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: After Rabbi Chayim Brovender was released from the hospital (where
: he recovered from being nearly lynched) he gave a seuda hodaya.
: Several speakers got up and rejoiced in the hashgacha pratis that
: saved him.  When Rav Brovender got up to speak, he said very simply
: that it wasn't hashgacha pratis, he was simply being part of Jewish
: History.

I have heard this thought presented diagnostically...

A means of obtaining a better life is to make oneself as indispensable
as possible to the rabbim. Thus, one's fate depends on their needs,
and hashgachah kelalis, not only hashgachah peratis, would push toward
receiving many productive years.

And similarly when the tzibbur davens for someone and worries about their
fate, the matter becomes one for Hashem's hashgachah for the tzibbur,
in addition to any merited by the individual.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R'nTK responded to RSZN's question:
> This is just a subset of the question, why did Hashem make the world the
> way He did?  Why did he make a world in which people have to work so hard
 to
> obtain their daily bread?  Why didn't He just leave us sitting  peacefully
> in the Garden of Eden, and have all our needs met the way the Bnai
 Yisrael
> had their needs met in the desert -- eat mon, or fresh fruits dropping
 off
> trees, drink water, sit around all day contemplating Hashem and His
wondrous
> ways?

R'nTK was joined by a number of other posters to expanded upon the same
idea.

Me: Am I the only one who understood RSZN's question as being rhetorical
and obliquely referring to a prominent religious figure in Israel claiming
that the protection of Israel does not come from Tzahal, but from G"d
alone, implying an apposition of both, making them mutually exclusive, in a
way that is contradicted by what R'nTK, RAM, RMB and others have posted?

For heaven's sake, he even provided a link:

> From: saul newman via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
>
>
http://jewishworker.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/the-role-of-human-initi
ative-and-
action.html
<http://jewishworker.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/the-role-of-
human-initiative-and-action.html>
>
> is  an army/iron dome  doing anything, or is it all Hashem?
> why did Hashem  require an army to conquer Canaan ?

That link eventually links to the following article:
*http://tinyurl.com/notirondome
<http://tinyurl.com/notirondome>*

So IIMNSHO that we have been responding to the wrong question.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Wie entstand und was bedeutet der bevorstehender Fastentag des 17. Tammus
* Do Not Forget, Do Not Shove it Under the Carpet
* ORD-Seminar in Regensburg
* Nach welchem Prinzip sind die f?nf B?cher Mose organisiert?
* R?ckblick auf Limmud.de
* In the Paris Jewish community, more women than men are recalcitrant
spouses.
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At 02:28 PM 7/29/2014, Zev Sero wrote:

>The workers and reporters at CNN etc. are probably not Jewish.  I would guess
>that the ones at the Israeli station probably are, but maybe not  - 
>does anyone
>actually know?

Many, but not all, of the anchors at 
http://www.i24news.tv/en/tv/live# are Jewish.  Many, but not all of 
those being interviewed, are Israeli officials.   Watch the station 
for awhile and  you will see that the people shown are a mix of some 
non-Jews (Palestinians)  and many Israeli officials.

See 
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/07/18/i24news-gives-dif
ferent-view-israel-director/ 
for more.
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?
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 02:24:44PM -0400, David Wacholder via Avodah wrote:
> : Likutei Torah of "Baal HaTanya" on Parshas Tazria uses the
> "world-picture"
> : of Rabi Avraham Bar Chiyya as an analog to Heavenly Forces changing the
> : World Below [sun positioned below and toward Southern Hemisphere heats it
> : up despite lack of population].    This is fascinating, though admittedly
> : not proof that he accepted the sun offset to the south as fact...
>
> Adds RMB: The north is called tzafon.

[furthest from Southern Hemisphere, tilted from sun, gets colder and more
> hidden as we go north.]
>
> Rabbeinu Bachya (Devarim 3:27) says this is because the sun is always
> in the southern half of the sky, thus tzafun from the north. (When in
> the northern hemisphere, including EY.) BDB and other secular sources
> offer a similar etymology.
>
> But Qabbalah and some of the Aristotilians both heavily invoke the
> Copernican model, extending the concentric circles beyond the 7th raqia
> and into metaphores (?) for the metaphysical.
>


My knowledge of Sefer Ha'Ibbur is limited to Volume One and snippets from
Volume Two. Still, from summaries it seems that he was closest to Rambam's
"practical" approach to astronomy, not to the "super-charged" Platonic even
Neo-Platonic approach of "philosophers"; nowhere is Sefer ha'Ibur quoted as
using the Seventh Rakia for spirituality. So far, nowhere did I see
"intelligence" attributed to the Moon or Sun. So it may be much less
"Metaphysical" than Rambam, so far.

Wertheimer's collection of "new" Midrashim in two volumes brings Kabala
oriented Midrashim, including Raza D'Breishis Rabba [similar name].  Also
known as Mishna or Brayta of Breishis - as secret - it names long lists of
angels and guards. These are source for Raza ?? and Sefer Raziel Hamal'ach,
a section of Sefer Rabi Yehudah Hachasid.

That is part of what RMB may be referring to. None of that originates in
Sefer Ha'ibur, as far as I know.

Admittedly, this is totally a separate subject.


Floors of Batei Knesset (Dura Europa and others) had in the floor what
could have been considered Avodah Zara pictures, but trying to describe
Hashem as the seventh Rakia.   Those may be - obliquely - referred to as
permissible to pray in at one time. Later generatinos seemed to have
forbidden them.

There may have been some "wobbly" Jews, in Egypt especially. L'havdil, from
Magicians looking to impress simple folk, there are Incantation bowls and
"recipes" for spells and counter-spells, who have quite a more secular
nature. They have six worlds of Avodah Zara's, then in the Seventh Rakia it
becomes purified and only Kosher Names are used.  These may be Sifrei
Kosmim, forbidden incantation books.


====GEOGRAPHY AND ASTRONOMY OF SEFER HA'IBUR
Rav Zrachya Halevi, of Provence and Spain, adds astronomical zing to the
questioning of witnesses for Kidush Hachodesh, as described in Rosh
Hashana. He uses "advanced" astronomy to puzzle out several obscure parts.
 His base text for astronomical knowledge was Sefer Ha'ibur [SI] , by
Avraham Ben Chiyya.  In beautiful Hebrew SI  assembles all the knowledge
needed to understand and almost calculate the  Jewish calendar.

Part I deals with his overview of the earth, and the sun moon revolving
around it. He aims to summarize the general state of knowledge. He presumes
that all heavenly bodies have perfect circular orbits around earth. The
moon has epicycles - also perfect circles - to make some adjustments. Baal
Hamaor speculated that the witnesses in Kidush Hachodesh could actually
observe the epicycles and be questioned on them.

Geography was much simpler. Land is one big continent, with exact borders
East and West, 180 degrees apart. The "Land" was  one big mega-continent
spanning an entire hemisphere - half the globe. Land  is 12 hours wide, and
the mega-sea is 12 hours wide.  Where was a logical place for creation's
astronomical clock to start? [Torah's version of Greenwich Mean Time] -
Where was the Place of Creation, when  the first sun rose on Day 4 in
Nissan or Tishrei?  Baal Hamaor postulated that "Time and creation" begin
from - the East Coast of the Land, the only East Coast mentioned in the
Torah, where land began. Conveniently place EY at the Center of the world
should be six hours west of East Coast, (even works today, from Vladivostok
to EY about 90 degrees] and there should be 6 hours of Land west of EY.

This is the basic science behind the Baal Hamaor quoted by the Chazon Ish.
 Chazon Ish takes the Baal Hamaor "as is" and does not want to adapt it to
later discoveries.

I stress this because to us there is a great question - how can we
designate - in East/West a center of the world? Start wheresoever you want!
Baal Hamaor had a very simple solution, based on Sefer Ha'Ibbur. There is
one Land, so take either the East Coast of that Land, or the Midpoint of
that Land.  This presumes that the Creation began on the Land.

Note that IMHO there can be serious problems - as RZH integrated the
Nineteen Year Cycle, our Ideal Average Calendar, and its presumptions, with
the Eidus on Kidush Hachodesh, which dealt most directly with observable
positioning of the moon at sunset at specific time.  Actually these are two
extremes.  As Chazon Ish puts it - the Nineteen Year Cycle governs "long
term" over years. The Beth Din was proclaiming a limited immediate decision
on the day of rosh Chodesh, and whether to add another month. These both
are mostly independent.

Instead of our "earth tilted" positioning, the sun is considered "aligned
straight". The moon is considered to have a tilted orbit.

As RMB alluded to (in an earlier discussion of Flat Earth) as "Persian"
ideas, how did they account for the equator being warmer?

Sefer Ha'Ibur had a brilliant answer. The sun is offset geographically,
some degrees south from the "plane" of the equator, making it closer to the
Southern Hemisphere. Also the circular orbit of the sun is not "centered"
on earth, instead it is offset, so the Southern Hemisphere faces the heat
of the sun when earth is closest to the sun (or vice versa).  Together -
the Southern Hemisphere faces merciless heat, as one travels south from the
equator.   People who live in the South end up "toasted" by direct sun and
become darker.  It gives new meaning to the name "Cham" for peoples of the
Southern hemisphere.

Mostly it is in the First Volume of Sefer Ha'ibur. I see that in the Second
Volume, Shaar Shvii, 67-70 in my computer, he discusses Molad Zakein and
East Coast. It would seem that he used the moon-rise on his "East Coast" to
start the day, it was six Time Zone six hours until Bavel and EY, somehow
leading to 24 hours that the Molad was not seen.  It also "may" explain
several esoteric remarks, riddles, discussed in Rosh Hashana 20 and left
unsolved.

Some contemporaries of Chazon Ish strongly disagreed with his conclusions
about Japan's date line. I have not yet even seen their ideas, though Rav
Henkin's conclusion was that Japan keeps Shabbos "the next day" along with
China.

RAAVAD ATTACKS BAAL HAMAOR
We have today the full text of Kasuv Sham, printed magnificently in the
back of newly printed Gmaras. Raavad clearly mocked the entire astronomical
presumption [pun intended] of Baal Hamaor.  He claimed that the "old way"
of learning the Sugya was better.

What relevance? Contemporary scientists attribute "Mesorah" or "Kabala" as
sources for the Baal hamaor in this issue. (See article in back of the
paperback pamphlet about the International Date Line, in English; in the
back a scientist explains the Baal Hamaor. ) Are these "new"  sources the
admitted ones - Sefer Ha'ibbur, and by extension general "Astronomy" ?

Or do these scientists attribute a "Sod Ha'Ibur" type of hidden Jewish
tradition? If so - I have an off-road question for them:

Raabad was father of Rav Yitzchak Sagi Nahor, founder of a school of
Kabala. Ramban obeyed Raavad's stricture not to publish any key secrets of
Kabbala, which requires Tradition to understand. Raabad the hidden Mekubal
was also publicly the Gadol Hador and headed the largest Yeshivah in
Provence. I inquire - Why was not Raabad told the Kabala/Mesora (if it is a
Jewish secret Beth Din tradition)?

Sefer Kasuv Sham of the Raavad as well as Milchamos Hashem of Ramban were
both written because the Baal hamaor was "too novel and radical".  RZH gave
much less weight to prior "consensus" of scholarship. Ramban especially
scolded him repeatedly on that score.

Centuries later, from our own lowly generation's standpoint, can we
consider Baal Hamaor more authoritative than Raabad and Ramban?

====


-- 
David Wacholder
Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
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You may want to listen to the talk by Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz at 
http://tinyurl.com/n2w6dn7  IMO he makes a number of very important points.

YL



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