Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 118

Thu, 07 Aug 2014

• 1. Re: Error in Magen Avraham 428 (elazar teitz)
• 2. Re: It Ain't No Coincidence (Lisa Liel)
• 3. It Ain't No Coincidence (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Philosophical and theological challenges of sacrifices (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: It Ain't No Coincidence (Lisa Liel)
• 6. Re: Pills on Tish'ah beAv (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: It Ain't No Coincidence (Akiva Blum)
• 8. Eicha /women (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Eicha /women (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 10. Re: Eicha /women (Kenneth Miller)
• 11. Re: Medrash on MRAH being buried in an unmarked grave (Michael Poppers)
• 12. Re: Eicha /women (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 13. Re: Eicha /women (Lisa Liel)
• 14. Re: Eicha /women (Micha Berger)
• 15. Interesting Observation on V'shamru (Cantor Richard Wolberg)
• 16. Insights Into Halacha: Smoking and Halacha: A Historical Perspective (Prof. Levine)

Motti Yarchinai (and if that's a real name, how appropriate to the topic!)
wrote:
> I have found what appears to be a grave error in the Magen Avraham's
> commentary to Shulchan Aruch, ch 428. I have detailed the error in a pdf
> document available at:? tiny.cc/magenavraham428

> If anyone can shed any light on it, I would be interested to hear what they
> have to say.


I suspect that what the MA wrote was something like "??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?'
?' ?"? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?"? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?' ????? ?????? ????
????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? _??? ?????; ????? ????? ??????_ ??? ?? ?? ????? ?'
?"? ???"? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?"?," and the printer skipped the
underlined phrase because of a ???? ??????, skipping from the first
appearance of "??????" to the second.

[To add transliteration for the benefit of the digest:
    Vekhein
    im chal molad Tishrei 3 9 204
    ummenu ulema'alah ein qov'in RH be'oso yom
    elah beyom hei
    vedavqa keshehashanah tihyeh peshutah.
    Aval im tihyeh me'uberes
    _ein_dochin;_
    _uveshanah_she'acharei_me'uberes_
    azai im chal hamolad 2 15 589
    umisham ulehalan qin qov'in bo RH
(Short line lengths help me make my way through long transliteration,
so I put them in. Implied punctuation and vowel errors, mine. -micha]

As for the MA stating that Rosh Hashana is delayed if the molad takes
place after 18:00 JMT, which RMY characterized as an error because it
is true not only after, but also at 18:00, I don't believe it is an
error. The MA was giving practical rules for determining the calendar.
A molad occurring exactly at 18:00 happens once in 2096 years. Its first
occurrence, if I am not mistaken, was Shvat 351; the second, in 2447'; and
the third in 4543. The next is scheduled for 6639, when the dechiya will
no longer necessarily exist. (The calculated calendar ends in Elul 6000).
Hence, the MA did not have to mention a case which is irrelevant to
his purpose.

EMT

On 8/5/2014 10:31 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>
> The other one is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOBgXGL0wVo

This is the one I'm familiar with.


> (The first singer also makes the mistake of pronouncing "Eli" with a 
> tzeireh.
> Is that really a common mistake?  I don't think I'd ever heard it 
> until today.)

Probably because eli sounds like Keili.

Lisa

At 10:15 AM 8/6/2014, R. Micha Berger  wrote:

>Tish'ah beAv is about the very large price we have paid to get from
>here to there. Leave keeping the eye on the prize for other days.

Is it not the very large price we have paid to get from there to here?

Related Comment:  We say back and forth,  but is it not more 
correctly forth and back?  YL
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On Wed, Aug 06, 2014 at 09:34:41AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: The following is from
: http://lookstein.org/lookjed/read.php?1,22368,22374#msg-22374
by R Russell Jay Hendel:

:> Let me make myself crystal clear. Besides i) vehemently disagreeing
:> that Maimonides looked at Sacrifices as a concession to the times
:>                       I suggest an aggressive approach: iii)
:> Korbanoth are the Jewish approach to psychology.

Also, if the Rambam really thought qorbanos were a concession, why would
the Yad spend so much time discussing their reinstatement, now that the
surrounding religions don't have animal sacrifice either?

Narbonni, who is also quoted by the Abarbenel's intro to Vayiqra offers
an understanding that avoids the whole problem. He explains the Moreh as
saying that qorbanos satisfy a basic human need/limitation, and citing
pagan sacrifices as proof that the need exists. Narbonni understands
the Rambam's entire discussion of weening people away from idolatry in
these terms.

The Or Samayach (couldn't find it recently, but he says the same thing
beqitzur in MC Vayiqra 1:2) has a different resolution. Although it's hard
to say this was the Rambam's intent; more like the OS's own development
of the Rambam's idea. He suggests that qorbanos on bamos were to lead
people away from avodah zara, which is why their permissability expires.
However, qorbanos in the Beis haBachirah, the topic in the Yad, are for
a more elevated function.

I wrote about it for MmD, see
<http://www.aishdas.org/mesukim/5764/vayikra.pdf>. We discussed this in
v12 around n111, v15n14 onward, and twice in vol 16 (much of the above
was tzken from v16n131). I also have a blog entry on the machloqes at
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/03/purpose-of-qorbanos.shtml>.

RRJH, cont:
:> Let me give one example (courtesy of Rav Hirsch) Suppose you meet a
:> person who is down with symptoms of depression. I would use the
:> Korbanoth approach. If the person is not poor, I would suggest
:> reminding him of all his past accomplishments (symbolized by the
:> blood of a sin offering being placed on the top of the altar)...

This is where RSRH's Horeb lost me. There is nothing inherent in putting
blood on an altar that speaks to one's past accomplishments. This symbol,
and many of RSRH's symbols, would only have meaning because the creator of
the sign and the recipient share a convention about what it should mean.

If one were to take Horeb to mean that the primary value of zeriqas hadam
is a symbol that we don't see discussed until Horeb, it would imply that
the vast majority, if not all, people who performed qorbanos in bayis
rishon or sheini didn't get much out of it. Nor basar bechalav, nor...

Oh, I do believe there is a symbology and psychology going on, but the
symbology has to be inherent (the way finger pointing up would mean
"up" without needing a translation key). And if it really is to work
psychologically, it would have to reach below conscious levels as well.

Notice how forming that opinion naturally led me from Hirschian taamei
hamitzvos to Mussar. (There are large hashkafic overlaps between TiDE's
Mensch-Israel and Slabodka's Gadlus haAdam.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 8/6/2014 9:35 AM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>
> Related Comment:  We say back and forth,  but is it not more correctly 
> forth and back?  YL

Chicken and eggs.  But in my experience, things often go seriously 
backwards before they can find their way forwards.  Chevlei mashiach is 
an example of that.

Lisa

On Wed, Aug 06, 2014 at 11:19:32AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Yes, I'll agree that such a consuming pain does make it difficult to
: think in general, or to do teshuva in particular. But it has value as
: kaparah as well, and I don't think that should be discounted. (And I
: do suspect that the pleasure-seeking society around us does tend to
: discount it.)

Im inclined to believe that the kaparah aspect of pain is in its power to
shake someone out of the rut they're in, and thus lead to teshuvah. If
not directly, in the marketing sense of numerous impressions of hating
the status quo adding up to motivate change.

That said, I meant that the sho'el's pain would/should be motive for
the poseiq to feel bound to lean toward qulah. Which is different
from how the same person should be relating to his own pain.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

> From: Avodah [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of

> Zev Sero via Avodah

> Sent: Wednesday, 06 August, 2014 6:32 AM

> 

> The other one is here:  <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOBgXGL0wVo>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOBgXGL0wVo

> This one does sound a bit joyous though solemnly so.

> I *guess* this is the German tradition; can anyone confirm or deny that?

 

K'hal Adas Yeshurun Jerusalem:

http://www.kayj.net/nusach-internal/mm/24231.mp3

 

from: http://www.kayj.net/nusach

 

Akiva

 

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It's generally accepted that women have a requirement of hearing Eicha.  On
a loca list the following appeared "All are welcome to hear Eicha at our
home. Women and men will read"
I'm aware of discussion on megillat esther but has anyone seen discussion of women being motzi men on eicha. Of any minyanim where they do this?
KT
Joel RIch

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R? Joel Rich:
It?s generally accepted that women have a requirement of hearing Eicha.? 
<SNIP>
------------------------


lived in. 

Tangentially, I found it ironically amusing when - after the day Kinnos -
the Baal Korei read Eichah and when he stumbled over a word here or there
the people listening corrected him. 

KT,
MYG

R' Joel Rich asked:

> It?s generally accepted that women have a requirement of hearing
> Eicha. ... I?m aware of discussion on megillat esther but has
> anyone seen discussion of women being motzi men on eicha. ...

I'd like to hear what "requirement" and "motzi" mean in this context.

I'm not being sarcastic or snarky. To my knowledge, Eicha is a minhag, not
a Chiyuv D'Rabanan like Esther. But I honestly don't know EXACTLY what that
means. For example, when I'm sitting in shul listening to it being read,
does he need kavana l'hotzi? Do I need kavana latzeis?

Until proven otherwise, I just presume that the minhag is simply to read
and/or hear it, and I really don't know if it goes any deeper than that.
But I'd like to hear more, from those who really know.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Virginia Drivers:
(Aug 2014): New "Rule" Leaves Virginia Drivers Furious!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53e2e1ab277661aa4867st01vuc

In Avodah V32n117, R'Micha added:
> [See the shiur at
<
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0
006_0_05863.html
 >
-micha] <
Thanks, R'Micha, for the intent; in practice, I think a more-useful URL for
seeing the shiur would be http://youtu.be/rmEIGBL40JQ .  Thanks.

All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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On 8/6/2014 9:06 PM, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah wrote:
> Tangentially, I found it ironically amusing when - after the day 
> Kinnos - the Baal Korei read Eichah and when he stumbled over a word 
> here or there the people listening corrected him.

R'n LL:
I'm not getting the irony.  I was appalled by the number of words our
readers got wrong.  You'd think a decent respect for the kahal would lead
people to go over the thing ahead of time.
----------------------------


As someone mentioned, Eichah is not a chiyuv like kriyas hatorah or Megillas
Esther. And that's at night. Reading it during the day - when this happened
- is totally "extra credit" and there's certainly no aspect of being motzi
the kahal, making corrections not only not necessary, but insulting to the
baal korei who is volunteering his services for this extra activity.

KT,
MYG

P.S. As far as your point, in general, yes, a Baal Korei is supposed to
prepare. Keep in mind that sometimes he doesn't know that he will be leining
- I didn't know that I would be leining Tisha B'Av night until 7:35 pm... No
one corrected me, though, so I don't know how I did!  :-)

On 8/6/2014 9:06 PM, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah wrote:
> Tangentially, I found it ironically amusing when - after the day Kinnos -
> the Baal Korei read Eichah and when he stumbled over a word here or there
> the people listening corrected him.

I'm not getting the irony.  I was appalled by the number of words our 
readers got wrong.  You'd think a decent respect for the kahal would 
lead people to go over the thing ahead of time.

Lisa

On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 12:52:44AM -0400, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah wrote:
: P.S. As far as your point, in general, yes, a Baal Korei is supposed to
: prepare....

WRT qerias haTorah, he is *obligated* to prepare by reading it through
three times, even if he knows it cold from last year. OC 139:1.

The AhS quotes a medrash from Ki Sisa, the beginning of #40 which the Tur
cites. pesuqim to prove it. This isn't only about knowing the reading,
it's actually an inyan in-and-of itself with pesuqim requiring it. And
then the medrash tells a maaseh where R' Aqiva asks R' Yochanan ben
Turta to lein, RYbT declines because "lo avarti al hasedra" (is this
what we call "maavir sedra"?) and the Chakhamim praise him for it.

In 139:2 the AhS continues asking how the Tur and AhS then end up
requiring "pa'amayim o shalosh" when the medrash requires four time. He
finds a source in the medrash, Bereishis #24. But the fact is the Tur
refers to the maaseh deR' Aqiva, the other medrash.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

The Vilna Gaon in his Kol Eliyohu makes a profound observation concerning
V'shamru. In V'shamru (Shmos 31:16-17) the first olam is written with a
vov (second letter) and the second olam is is spelled without the letter
vov. In the talmud (Shabbos 69b) there is a controversy which the Vilna
Gaon explains regarding the different spellings of olam.

Rav Huna says that if a person is wandering in a desert or does not know
when Shabbos is, then he should count six days and observe the seventh
as Shabbos. Chiya bar Rav says that he should consecrate one day as
Shabbos and then count six days. Rav Huna states that in this quandry we
should follow the pattern of creation consisting of six days of work and
the seventh as Shabbos. While Chiya adhered to the life of Adam who was
created on Friday and the very next day after his creation was Shabbos,
following which were six days of the week. The halacha is that we count
six days and then Shabbos. The secone olam is therefore written without
a vov to signify that when Shabbos is hidden, we follow the prescription
of the Torah in: "...for six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth,
and on the seventh day he ceased to work and rested." So first we have
the days of creation and THEN the Sabbath.

This week's Parasha contains the well known exhortation to watch
our health, 'Venishmartem Me'od L'Nafshoseichem'. Nowadays, this
verse is often invoked when referring to the socially acceptable, yet
self-destructive behavior commonly known as smoking. This article sets
out to explore the question of how smoking is viewed through the lens of
halacha, with poskim through the ages debating whether smoking [and even
on Yom Tov!] is permitted, prohibited, or actually fulfilling a Mitzvah.

To find out more, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Smoking
and Halacha: A Historical Perspective"
<http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5717>.

I welcome your questions or comments by email. For all of the Mareh
Mekomos / sources, just ask.

kol tuv and Good Shabbos,
Y. Spitz
Yerushalayim
ysp...@ohr.edu




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