Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 138

Wed, 01 Oct 2014

• 1. Re: Supporting Shemittah - deOraisa or deRabbanan ()
• 2. Re: Supporting Shemittah - deOraisa or deRabbanan (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Why an apple? (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Supporting Shemittah - deOraisa or deRabbanan ()
• 5. Re: Why an apple? (Joshua Meisner)
• 6. Why Honey? (Richie)
• 7. Re: Ben sorer u'moreh (Avi Goldstein)
• 8. Re: Why an apple? (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Ben sorer u'moreh (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: shabbos app (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: shabbos app (menucha)
• 12. Re: shabbos app (Kenneth Miller)
• 13. shiurim- YK (saul newman)
• 14. Wristwatch on Shabbos (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 15. Re: Wristwatch on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 16. Kiddush on Whisky (Micha Berger)

 

From: Micha Berger via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

....How do we prioritize  supporting
farmers who don't rely on the heter mechirah?

So, if  shemitah is a hanhagah tovah, then I can't really justify
supporting yenem's  chumerah over other tzedaqos. ...
It shemitah is deOraisa, then I can't fault  him for relying on a different
pesaq than I may have. However, he has a  guarantee from the Borei for
the money, and I don't.

If shemitah is  deRabbanan...

The SM"A (CM 67:2) says that rabbinic shemittah does not  come with the
same havtachah....

....Ironically, the SMA's position  would force me to give the highest 
priority
to supporting shemittah  observers. More so than if it's deOraisa. 

All of which presuming I have a fixed tzedaqah budget that I'm  trying
to figure out how to dispense.... 
 
-- 
Micha  Berger              





>>>>
 
You are way over-thinking this.  Give what you can -- even if it's not  
much --  to the farmers who want to keep shmitta properly according to  their 
poskim, and Hashem will surely bless you.  After 120 years you can  ask Him 
how exactly He made the cheshbon of what to bless you with, with all the  
pilpulim.....
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 08:39:15PM -0400, via Avodah wrote:
: You are way over-thinking this.  Give what you can -- even if it's not  
: much --  to the farmers who want to keep shmitta properly according to  their 
: poskim, and Hashem will surely bless you.  After 120 years you can  ask Him 
: how exactly He made the cheshbon of what to bless you with, with all the  
: pilpulim.....

Except that Avodah is a place for halakhah velo lemaaseh, ie "lomdus"
or "pilpul" (if you insist). This isn't me asking my poseiq what to
do. That said...

I do not think that one should budget tzedaqah with less seriousness
than one budgets other investments.

For example, the Israeli gov't understandably is shifting money to defense
spending. Meaning, 5775 will be a particularly hard year for orphanages,
food kitchens, and many other charities whose gov't assistance will be
cut. It's not just "give to the farmers", it's also deciding what of
the tzedaqah bucket in our budget isn't going to them. And what about
aniyei irekha, who are supposed to be getting priority regardless of
shemitta or the Israeli financial picture?

Yes, in a year with more needs, including shemitta, including social
welfare cuts, perhaps it makes sense to consider how far beyond maaser
one could go.

And though I called tzedaqah an investment, I would object to the
implication that we should be triaging our charity expenditures based
on whether or not we get a berakhah. And who are any of us to say that
someone in pain watching children go OTD would get a bigger berakhah
assisting shemittah observance than if the money went to a home for
children from disfunctional homes, supporting others' children? It's not
even like we could compare "return on investment" even if I thought we
ought to go there altogether.

But really (to recap), I only meant learning for learning's sake.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
mi...@aishdas.org        others come to love him very naturally, and
http://www.aishdas.org   he does not need even a speck of flattery.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

When did we start translating "tapuach" as apple?

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

 

In a message dated 9/28/2014 9:18:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mi...@aishdas.org writes:

And what  about
aniyei irekha, who are supposed to be getting priority regardless  of
shemitta or the Israeli financial picture?

 
>>>>
 
I believe that aniyei Eretz Yisrael -- or maybe it's only aniyei  
Yerushalayim? -- are considered "aniyei ircha."
 
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> When did we start translating "tapuach" as apple?

When did we start defining "apple" as apple?

Joshua

I heard a beautiful reason many years ago why honey is used. Do you know
how honey is produced? The busy bee must go from flower to flower and work
very hard. If you want a sweet year, you have to work for it. It ain't
automatic.
G'mar chatima tova (and don't forget to exert the effort). LOL
R Wolberg

Sent from my iPhone

Zev Sero wrote:

Can you cite another example of a tanna or amora making up a story out of
whole cloth, claiming to have seen something merely to make the point that
it could happen in principle?

For starters, there is the series of Rabbah bar bar Chanah stories in
Hamocher es Hasefinah that are clearly not literal, yet are told to
illustrate  a point. And lest one argue that the stories are literal, one
of them has RBBC taken to the place where the earth and  the sky meet!
While this story does demonstrate that RBBC thought the  earth to be flat,
there is  no place where the earth and sky meet, and  so the story by
definition must not be literal.
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On 28/09/2014 10:27 PM, Joshua Meisner wrote:
> When did we start defining "apple" as apple?

That's a decent question too.   I find a claim online that as late as the
17th century it was still a generic term for all fruits except berries
(but including nuts), but I wonder, if so what did they call actual apples?

The same source claims that this is the source of the associatoin of the Etz Hadaas
with apples, but I find Wikipedia's explanation more plausible, that it was caused
by the double meaning of the word "malum" in Latin.  If it came from English's funny
use of "apple", we'd expect to see it only in England rather than throughout Europe.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 28/09/2014 11:37 PM, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
> Zev Sero wrote:
>
> Can you cite another example of a tanna or amora making up a story out of
> whole cloth, claiming to have seen something merely to make the point that
> it could happen in principle?
>
> For starters, there is the series of Rabbah bar bar Chanah stories in
> Hamocher es Hasefinah that are clearly not literal, yet are told to
> illustrate a point. And lest one argue that the stories are literal,
> one of them has RBBC taken to the place where the earth and the sky
> meet! While this story does demonstrate that RBBC thought the earth
> to be flat, there is no place where the earth and sky meet, and so
> the story by definition must not be literal.

False comparison.  You can't reason from agadeta to halacha.  RBBC was not
making any kind of point.  His tall tales fall clearly in the Bavli tradition
of Arabian-Nights-style storytelling, just as R Nachman Breslaver's stories
fall in the tradition of European of fairy tales.  Neither RBBC nor RN were
making points; they were using a conventional literary style to convey deep
secrets that could not be discussed openly.  (For one interpretation of the
RBBC stories, see the Maharal's _Be'er Hagulah_, somewhere around the 6th
Be'er.)

(One may speculate that the stories of Sinbad the Sailor derive from RBBC,
but I think it equally likely that it was the other way around, that Sinbad
stories were already being told, and RBBC used that medium to convey his
messages, expecting his audience to be familiar with it, just as R Nachman
expected his audience to be familiar with the fairy tale genre.)

None of this can be compared to R Yonasan's statements which he inserted
into a halachic discussion with the clear intention of winning the argument
by means of incontrovertible proof.  R Shimon offers only logic; R Yonasan
trumps it with what he claims to be a fact.  If it was not a fact, then it
would be dishonest to introduce it in such a fashion, and utterly disingenuous
to claim that "well, it's not really true, but I'm so sure of my position that
it's as *if* it were true."   That is enough to get someone kicked out of
academia today, let alone the Beis Medrash in those days, and I think it's
unacceptable to accuse him of it.



-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 09:16:48PM +0300, Eli Turkel VIA AREIVIM wrote:
: see
: http://www.shabbosapp.com/
: 
: claims to allow the use of a cell phone on shabbat through an app that
: overcomes various problems
: (they dont discuss uvdah de-chol)
: They write that rabbinic endorsements are to come but I dont believe that
: any rabbi would endorse such an app (assuming this is a serious venture)

It's kickstarter, so given the implausibility of any O rabbis' endorsements,
I would question its seriousness.

That said, I replied here on Avodah in case anyone else wants to play:
What's wrog with this ad?

The rules are alot like Boggle. Do not read below until the timer runs
out, and then lets compare lists. Notice not all my issues are reasons
I don't think it would work, a couple (2, 5) are reasons why I think
the step is unnecessary.

1- Udva dechol -- R' Eli Turkel's opening issue

2- Similarly, if you use RSZA's argument that the primary issur is that
   observant Jewry universially accepted this avoidance, and therefore it's
   as binding a gezeira as if Sanhedrin passed it.

Now, on to their bullet items:

3- "Battery"... since battery usage is entirely unobservable, I doubt
   there is an issue to circumvent. (OTOH, I see technical problems
   implementing this claim, aval ein kan hamaqom lehaarikh.)

4- Writing, delayed typing option:
   Gerama doesn't mean mutar. So, perhaps if it were needed by doctor...

5- Writing, wipe data option:
   Kesiva is based on tzuras ha'os. There is no advantage to wiping data.
   OTOH, temporary writing is assur anyway. (SA OC 340:4)
   You would also have to address tzovei'ah and mechiqah.

6- Screen. I'm not sure LED backlighting poses a specific issue for
   them to need to circumvent it. OTOH, it's probably how they keep
   battery drain close to constant.

7- Charging.... See "gerama" in #3, above. Also, as I don't know
   how the boneh argument to plugging things in works to know if delayed
   action on the actual charging makes plugging the thing into the outlet
   any less boneh. The issur isn't the charging, but the attachment to
   the ground, so it there any materiality to the delay? It's like saying
   that it's okay to open an umbrella if you don't hold it over your
   head for the first 15 min.

Thoughts? Objections to any of my "boggle words"?

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

They're going after the wrong market.  This would be a great Machon 
Tzomet type thing, much of what they are using is Gramma, and they 
should be marketing this to those who are using phones for pikuach nefesh. 

Sounds to me like they think grama time-delays can make melachos mutar,
but my understanding is that it merely brings them to a d'rabanan
level. Of course, that is a gross oversimplification, but I would point
out on Rav Heineman's Sabbath Mode ovens (which not everyone allows)
there is no visual change on any of the controls, and even that is
allowed only for yom tov, not Shabbos.

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> 7- Charging.... See "gerama" in #3, above. Also, as I don't know how
> the boneh argument to plugging things in works to know if delayed action
> on the actual charging makes plugging the thing into the outlet any less
> boneh. The issur isn't the charging, but the attachment to the ground,
> so ...

I would add that charging would also pose a tikun maneh problem. I can't
see it being any less assur than winding one's non-electric wristwatch.
Granted, there are heterim for that if the wristwatch is still running,
and that parallels the case of the phone which is still running, but
still, it is yet another problematic point.

Akiva Miller

http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/kipur/gutle.pdf

on limiting or not , the -variety- of  food  one eats on YK.....
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R' Akiva Miller, in a different thread:
I would add that charging would also pose a tikun maneh problem. I can't see
it being any less assur than winding one's non-electric wristwatch.
Granted, there are heterim for that if the wristwatch is still running, and
that parallels the case of the phone which is still running, but still, it
is yet another problematic point.
----------------------- 

Why is winding a wristwatch tikkun maneh? There's no tikkun (i.e., change of
state/improvement) taking place. You're just changing the position of the
various components in the watch. If it is tikkun maneh, then why wouldn't
something else mechanical, like unlocking a lock, not be tikkun maneh, too?

KT,
MYG

On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 02:47:48AM -0400, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah wrote:
: Why is winding a wristwatch tikkun maneh? There's no tikkun (i.e., change of
: state/improvement) taking place. You're just changing the position of the
: various components in the watch. If it is tikkun maneh, then why wouldn't
: something else mechanical, like unlocking a lock, not be tikkun maneh, too?

Winding a watch and winding a mechanical baby swing are mechanically
very very similar.

But AFAIK, typical pesaq is that the first is assur, and the latter -- mutar.

The difference? Watches are supposed to run down. A non-running watch is
useless. Swings, OTOH, don't need to run continually. Similarly, you want
a lock that is sometimes open and sometimes closed. An closed lock isn't
"broken" in the same sense a non-running watch is, so opening it isn't
tiqun.

See Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhisa 28:19. If the watch is still running,
there is a machloqes about winding it. The MB 338:15 prohibits, and the
SSK only allows for a tzarikh gadol. (I don't know if that means you can,
if you don't want to miss minchah?)

SSK 28:28 permits wearing a self-winding watch (for the younger among us:
a watch that stays wound by utilizing your normal arm motions) as long
as it's not run down.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

Today's AhS Yomi <http://www.aishdas.org/luach> (which has zemanim, daf yomi,
Y-mi yomi, too, all in a normal calendar month-grid format!)
included OC 272:14.

RYME asks in se'if 13 how it became the norm, even among gedolim, to
make Qiddush on sheikhar even where wine is vailble. In this se'ir he
lists the answers he doesn't think are sufficient:

Bach: To include the meal's other drinks in the se'urah

Taz: Win is too expensive

Magain Avraham: sheikar is chamar meginah
or the variant on the MA's theme adding that it's also more chaviv.

In se'if 14 the AhS gives his preffered answer. Real wine, pressed from
grapes, wasn't available in Eastern Europe. Not just "too expensive",
but priced entirely beyond reach when available at all. Se'ifim 6-7
discussed yayin tzemuqim. It seems their raisins were so dry, you weren't
necessarily getting even liquid originally from the raisin, but rather
the water they're soaking in gets changed. Se'if 7 (and 204:15) finds a
"limud zekhus" based on ta'am ke'iqar, if you hold like R' Tam and the
Ra'avad that "ta'am ke'iqar -- deOraisa" (against the Rif and Rambam).
Or perhaps because in their culture it has a sheim yayin.

Here he invokes this idea and sys that compared to such "yayin", one
can make qiddush on sheikhar even if the "yayin" is available.

Which I think would mean that he holds in the situations we typically
find ourselves today, where there is yayin (actual grape wine) available
in the city, the AhS would require making qiddush on wine. (Or challah,
but that's a whole 'nother topic.)

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
mi...@aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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