Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 140

Mon, 06 Oct 2014

• 1. Who decides if someone eats on YK (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Re: Who decides if someone eats on YK (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Who decides if someone eats on YK (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: Who decides if someone eats on YK (Kenneth Miller)
• 5. Re: Who decides if someone eats on YK (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Selach, Mechal, Kapper (Allan Engel)
• 7. Re: mass media meschilah (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 8. Shofar on Yom Kippur - Muktzah? (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 9. Avinu malkeinu (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Judaism is not a religion (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: Ben sorer u'moreh (David Riceman)
• 12. Re: Shofar on Yom Kippur - Muktzah? (Kenneth Miller)
• 13. Re: Avinu malkeinu (Kenneth Miller)
• 14. Re: mass media meschilah (Eli Turkel)
• 15. Re: Ben sorer u'moreh (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Shofar on Yom Kippur - Muktzah? (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: Avinu malkeinu (Zev Sero)
• 18. Re: Why an apple? (Michael Poppers)

I recall learning that if 9 doctors say you can fast and
one says you must eat, you are to listen to the one irrespective
of the religion of the doctor(s).

In another situation, Ben said the doctor doesn?t have to be dati,
just as long as he is honest and ethical. I would think that if he
or she is not dati, they might say the patient shouldn?t fast (out
of convenience or whatever, since the doctor feels no obligation
to fast anyway.

Richard Wolberg

On Fri, Oct 03, 2014 at 11:03:20AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: I recall learning that if 9 doctors say you can fast and
: one says you must eat, you are to listen to the one irrespective
: of the religion of the doctor(s).

Mishnah Yuma 8:5 says that the decision of whether a sick person
should eat or not goes to the experts, and if there are no experts,
"we feed him on his own word, until he says 'enough'."

The gemara ad loc (83a) explains the mishnah as saying that we
listen to the experts when he says I don't need to eat, or
doesn't / can't voice an opinion. But (R' Yanai says) when he
says he needs to eat, we assume he knows how his body feels
better than the experts.

So, it's EITHER the doctors OR the sick person saying he needs
to eat.

The Y-mi (41a Ridbaz ed.) says this is because if they disagree, it's
safeiq nefashos, and still dokheh.

The Tosefta (Shabbos ch. 15) goes futher WRT chulul Shabbos explicitly
saying that for safeiq nefashos one needn't get permission from beis din.

The gemaa in Kerisus 13a says that a pregnant woman may eat less than a
shiur.

The Magid Mishnah (on Shabbos 2:14, and pasqened in his SA OC 328:4) that
one violates Shabbos for a choleh sheyeish bo saqanah even in ways where
the medical help won't stop the saqanah.

Given the gemara in Kerisus and the MM, R' Chaim Brisker (quoted in Halachic
Man pg 39 and GRYZ haLevi on Shevisas Asor 2:8) rules:

To prevent someone from becoming a choleh sheyeish bo saqanah (like the
pregnant woman in the gemara) feed less than a shiur -- the least needed
to prevent piquach nefesh, but
for someone who already is a choleh sheish bo sakanh, you can feed him
as much as he needs. (As Yuma 8:4 says "until he says 'enough'.")

Ad kan things I learned in part of last week's Shabbos Shuvah derashah.

So I looked up the AhS (OC 618:15). He only allows going beyond the shiur
if the choleh needs it. No mention of a distinction between she'ein bo
saqanah or r"l sheyeish.

Notice that in none of this discussion is there mention of asking a rav,
and the implication from the Tosaefta is that bedavqa that one needn't.

GCT and :-)@@ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I think the real question is what parameters do you give the doctor in
asking whether one should fast on Yom Kippur (and IMHO this applies to frum
doctors as well, since IIUC the decision should be made based on the
patient's poseik rather than the doctor's).  For example - if the doctor
(and I know they often do not think or articulate in terms of probability)
feels there is no "leidat hasafeik", assumedly the patient can't eat
(although maybe if the patient feels worried he may?) but what if the
doctor says there's a 1% increase in his expectation of mortality for the
individual (from a 1% to a 1.01% mortality rate)?Assumedly you go to a
poseik (or you already went and asked for a parameter ) Of course this
assumes poskim and doctors are numerate.
GCT
Joel Rich
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R' Richard Wolberg wrote:

> In another situation, Ben said the doctor doesn?t have to be dati,
> just as long as he is honest and ethical. I would think that if
> he or she is not dati, they might say the patient shouldn?t fast
> (out of convenience or whatever, since the doctor feels no
> obligation to fast anyway.

This is an important point. I would enhance it by pointing out that clear
communication between doctor and patient is crucial, even when working with
a sincere and well-meaning doctor. I think a good rule of thumb would be
that if the doctor says to eat, one should ask, "Why? How terrible would it
be to fast?"

In some cases, the doctor would say, "Fasting could send you back to the
hospital." But in other cases, the doctor merely has general concerns about
the patient's strength, and if the patient would offer to spend the day at
home and/or in bed, that would suffice.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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The MB on this subject is very clear - the problem is that modern day 
doctors scoff at the idea of YK. While it is true that we go by an idol 
worshipping doctor if he says "eat", an atheist doctor is more 
problematic.   Possibly the idol worshiper respects the idea of fasting, 
even if he doesn't fast this particular day.

It would appear that at some point poskim decided that what the doctors 
says has to be judged by an outside party. To take this line of thinking 
to its logical conclusion, it  might better to ask a believing Muslim 
doctor than a non-believing Jewish doctor.

Actually this idea (the situation has changed so we need to rethink some 
of our assumptions) is actually quite modern.

Ben

On 10/3/2014 6:44 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Notice that in none of this discussion is there mention of asking a rav,
> and the implication from the Tosaefta is that bedavqa that one needn't.
>
> GCT and :-)@@ii!
> -Micha
>

Why in the Amida is the order Limchila, Lislicha Ulchapparah, but in the Al
Cheits it's Selach then Mechal (then Kapper)?

(A brief search through the archives turns up a post from RMB in 2001
saying that there is "a machlokes between the Gra and RSRH about whether
"selach lanu, mechal lanu, kaper lanu" is in ascending or descending
order." I can't immediately see if this would explain the difference
between the two orders I reference.)
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R? Eli Turkel: 
In a few shiurim I attended over the past few days the speakers said that
asking for forgiveness of mass media, email, whatsup,  etc is fairly
meaningless. First SA states that one should preferably ask for mechila in
person and not through a messenger. Second the request for a specific deed
and not a general request for unknown activities. One cannot really forgive
someone for an unknown action, mechilla should be honest and not just a
verbal statement.
------------------------------------- 

There are two different issues here: 1) The optimal way to ask mechilah 2) The necessity to be forgiven before Yom Kippur. 

Even though you may not be fulfilling 1) properly by posting something on
your Facebook wall, you are still fulfilling 2) if someone who was wronged
by you forgives you because of your post. So I wouldn't call it
meaningless. 

KT,
MYG

Rabbosai, is the shofar on Yom Kippur muktzah (as a kli she'melachto
l'issur) and we use it after Ne'ilah l'tzorech gufo so it's mutar in tiltul
then? Or, is it not muktzah the entire Yom Kippur because it's muttar to use
after Ne'ilah, so it's muchan for the entire day?

 

KT,
MYG

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Has anyone seen anything on the concept of a "make up" avinu malkeinu on
Friday when Yom Kippur is on Shabbat?  How/why does the fact that we are
not saying it on shabbat override the psak that we don't say trachanun on
Friday due to the partially festive nature of the day.?

Gt
Joel rich
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At 10:23 AM 10/3/2014, R Micha wrote :
>But the choice between "Judaism is not a religion" and "Judaism is very
>different than other religions" is a pedagogic one. Since RSRH tells us
>the exact distinction he means each time, it's not about the "category"
>religion.

Please cite the places in his writings where "RSRH tells us the exact 
distinction he means each time" and what these distinctions are. YL

The following is from RSRH's Tishrei VI in volume II of the Collected 
writings and I think that again RSRH makes it clear the Judaism is 
not a religion.  (The entire essay may be read at 
http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/tishrei_VI.pdf)

It is on this clear historic basis, on realities confirmed by the
concrete experience of an entire nation, that Judaism stands, in both
theory and practice. In Judaism emotion must not be allowed to run
away with the mind. Rather, the emotions must be guided by realities
which were clearly apprehended by the senses, grasped by the lucid
intellect and considered by logical thought so that they serve as guides
for every aspect of our lives. Our reflections on these realities must
produce a firm, solemn resolve on our part to fashion our lives on
earth in accordance with the words of God which were addressed to
the thinking mind. Clear reasoning and vigorous willpower: these are
the forces on which Judaism counts; in Judaism, the heart and the
emotions only serve to mediate between intellect and action.

Not "belief' but "knowledge," not "sentiment" but "determination
and accomplishment;" these are the energies through which the
"Jewish religion" becomes manifest. And for that very reason Judaism
is not a "religion." It has no part with any of the facets that other
"religions" emphasize as the "essence of religion." He who would drag
Judaism down to the level of "belief' divorced from knowledge, who
would place also at the head of the "Jewish faith" all the nebulous
subjectivism which indulges in "devout impulses" and have these
notions constitute the basic requirements of the Jewish "religion,"
cannot be one of the "priests of the Lord." He is in reality one of the
priestlings of paganism who exploit vague sentiment and sensibilities
for the worship of their own delusions, whose harvest, therefore, has
mostly been grief and mourning, misery and distress.
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RZS:

<<1. We are not talking about agedeta here. Agadeta (obvious agadeta) 
works by different rules. In our case we are talking about a statement 
of fact given *as irrefutable proof* to win an argument.>>

It's very rare for Hazal to label something as "fact" or "aggadta". In 
our case the proper label is precisely what's in dispute.  In this 
particular case Rabbeinu Bahya (Ki Seitzei 21:21 near the end) is unsure 
which this is, so why are you so sure?

David Riceman

R' Moshe Yehuda Gluck asked:

> is the shofar on Yom Kippur muktzah (as a kli she?melachto
> l?issur) and we use it after Ne?ilah l?tzorech gufo so it?s
> mutar in tiltul then?

I have always presumed that by the time Neilah is over, it is late enough
that we don't need to worry about Hilchos Muktzeh. Are you making a
distinction between the time that the shofar is blown, vs. a few seconds
earlier when it is picked up?

I'd also focus on your words, "we use it after Ne?ilah l?tzorech gufo". I
will concede that it is mutar to handle a kli shemelachto l'issur for a
purpose which is l'tzorech gufo. However, that presumes that you will be
using this object (which is *normally* used in a manner which is a melacha)
in a manner which is NOT a melacha. For example, one may pick up a hammer
in order to crack a nut, but one may NOT pick up a hammer in order to
hammer a nail. So too, the heter of "l'tzorech gufo" cannot be used to
allow the actual *blowing* of the shofar.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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R' Joel Rich asked:

> Has anyone seen anything on the concept of a "make up" avinu
> malkeinu on Friday when Yom Kippur is on Shabbat?  How/why does
> the fact that we are not saying it on shabbat override the psak
> that we don't say trachanun on Friday due to the partially
> festive nature of the day.?

The operative word here is "partially". Compromises can be made, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I would point out that this make-up Avinu Malkenu appears at Shacharis, not
at mincha. Remember that the general rule is to omit Tachanun and A"M at
mincha prior to a festive day, but to say them at Shacharis. The idea that
we would skip them on Erev RH and Erev YK even at Shacharis is unusual, and
I'd suggest that it can allow for exeptions such as the current case.

This case reminds me of a psak in the Igros Moshe (OC 4:74:5) about putting
cold ketchup onto hot meat on Shabbos. Ostensibly, a solid piece of meat
has the halachos of a kli rishon even when it is in your plate, and a cold
liquid such as ketchup would be subject to being cooked by it. But Rav
Moshe paskens that to be mutar, because the truth is that each of those
halachos is a chumra, and you can't pile chumras together like that.

Similarly, one might say that in a normal year, Erev YK is so festive that
we skip Avinu Malkenu. But in a year such as this, when we're going to have
to skip it all Shabbos long, there's room to allow saying it on Erev
Shabbos at Shacharis.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/54314639bb8674639520cst02vuc

On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Moshe Yehuda Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There are two different issues here: 1) The optimal way to ask mechilah 2)
> The necessity to be forgiven before Yom Kippur.

> Even though you may not be fulfilling 1) properly by posting something on
> your Facebook wall, you are still fulfilling 2) if someone who was wronged
> by you forgives you because of your post. So I wouldn't call it meaningless.

My rabbi gave the same answer as MYG. Hoiwever, it is not obvious that
(2) is fulfilled. i.e. can someone give forgiveness in a general way
without knowing what he is forgiving.

As an example A sees an announcenent on a facebook account asking for
mechila from everyone in his group. So A sends back an email that he
is mochel.
In then turns out that the owner of the facebook account had spread
a nasty rumor about A perhaps including a false accustaion of secual
harrasment. Is there really a mechila in this case?

Shana Tova
Eli

On 5/10/2014 11:36 AM, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
>
>
> It's very rare for Hazal to label something as "fact" or "aggadta".
> In our case the proper label is precisely what's in dispute. In this
> particular case Rabbeinu Bahya (Ki Seitzei 21:21 near the end) is
> unsure which this is, so why are you so sure?

I'm looking at the RB and I'm not seeing what you are.  Where do you see
that he is unsure whether this is agadeta?   On the contrary, he seems to
be treating it as straight testimony, which has to be explained, either by
saying RY disagrees with the Braisa (and his story proves him right), or by
saying that RY was mistaken, and what he saw was not really a BSuM.  But
there's no suggestion that he knew he hadn't really seen a BSuM, but merely
had a strong belief that one must have existed somewhere.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 5/10/2014 9:36 AM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I have always presumed that by the time Neilah is over, it is late
> enough that we don't need to worry about Hilchos Muktzeh. Are you
> making a distinction between the time that the shofar is blown, vs. a
> few seconds earlier when it is picked up?

Shabbos/Yomtov continues in full force until one says "baruch hamavdil"
or "ata chonantanu".


> I'd also focus on your words, "we use it after Ne?ilah l?tzorech
> gufo". I will concede that it is mutar to handle a kli shemelachto
> l'issur for a purpose which is l'tzorech gufo. However, that presumes
> that you will be using this object (which is *normally* used in a
> manner which is a melacha) in a manner which is NOT a melacha.

The tekiah after Neilah is permitted, so in this case "letzorech gufo"
means its normal use.  Similarly if there were a case when hammering a
nail was permitted on Shabbos, one would be allowed to carry a hammer
letzorech gufo to do this permitted hammering.


> So too, the heter of "l'tzorech gufo" cannot be used to allow the
> actual *blowing* of the shofar.

Of course not.  That would be putting the cart before the horse.
First one must have a heter to blow, then one may handle the shofar
in order to do so.  The heter is that it's a minhag to blow.  Blowing
shofar on Shabbos is only forbidden in the first place because of uvdin
dechol, so it doesn't take much to permit it.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 4/10/2014 9:11 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Has anyone seen anything on the concept of a "make up" avinu malkeinu
> on Friday when Yom Kippur is on Shabbat?  How/why does the fact that
> we are not saying it on shabbat override the psak that we don't say
> trachanun on Friday due to the partially festive nature of the day.?

The Rama (OC 604:2) says this was the minhag in Cracow in his day.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

In Avodah V32n138, RJM asked:
> When did we start defining "apple" as apple? <
Which "apple" is being referenced within the sources mentioned in this
article?

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380551/jewis
h/The-Apple-Revealed.htm

Thanks in advance.
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