Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 171

Thu, 25 Dec 2014

• 1. Re: [BHHJ] The Aftermath of Eric Gardner's Chokehold Death ()
• 2. Re: Escorting the Queen (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: resource limitations on mitzvot (Micha Berger)
• 4. no one home (saul newman)
• 5. Re: Escorting the Queen (Kenneth Miller)
• 6. Re: December 31 at night (elazar teitz)
• 7. Re: no one home (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: no one home (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: When Charity Is A Sin (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: no one home (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: December 31 at night (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: no one home (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: no one home (Kenneth Miller)
• 14. Re: no one home (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: no one home (Kenneth Miller)

[I don't think it's really for Avodah to disagree over the situation
as much as to discuss the halkhah in any given situation. However, it's
unfair to let the BHHC give their version of a story under dispute while
moderating away any attempt to disagree, so rather than just including
the seifa of this post, I'm letting this post through intact.

[But I am not encouraging this sort of discussion. Avodah is about Torah,
not American current events.
-micha]

From: Micha Berger via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
>  <http://j.mp/1wnIkzR>.

> The Bais HaVaad Halacha Center
> The Center for the Study and Practice of Monetary Halacha
> THE BAIS HAVAAD HALACHA JOURNAL: Volume 5775 Issue X Parshas  Miketz

> The Aftermath of Eric Gardner's Chokehold Death
> Are Police  Above the Law?
> by Rabbi Micha Cohn

> The death of Eric Gardner,  resulting from a police officer's chokehold,....

Actually it seems that it was not a chokehold, and also, the policeman
held Gardner down for only one minute, not enough time for "I can't
breathe" to result in the man's death.
<http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/12/03/actual-facts-er
ic-garner/>

Garner did not die of asphyxiation, as the autopsy showed. A chokehold
is defined as depriving the person of oxygen by pressing on his windpipe.
That didn't happen. The guy weighed around 400 pounds and apparently died
by being crushed by his own weight. He suffered from chronic bronchial
asthma and diabetes as well as morbid obesity. It truly appears that
the policeman was completely innocent and did not cause the man's death,
even inadvertently. I suppose an argument could be made that a cop should
never attempt to restrain a perp who weighs that much, no matter what
manner of restraint is used. I would not make that case, however.

A much stronger argument could be made that selling individual cigarettes
should not be a criminal offense. It's a stupid, cruel and dictatorial
law, and in this case it led to the death of a man who should never have
been considered a criminal.

Halachically if a person died as a result of something that in the normal
course of events would never cause death, then the person who "caused"
the death would not even have to go to an ir miklat if we still had
arei miklat. That lets the cop off.

A much more fraught question is this: Would it be morally, ethically,
legally, halachically correct to pass laws stating that any person who is
arrested must be arrested by a policeman of the same race and ethnicity
as the perp? Does the halacha have anything to say about this?

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com

We discussed in the past whether Shabbos is a "malkah", with a final hei,
queen (Hebrew), or "malka" with an alef, king (Aramaic).

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 10:47:09PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
:> [7]The Elya Rabba (O.C. 681, 1) "answers up" this rhetorical question
:> of the Taz and Pri Chadash, explaining that until one actually makes
:> Havdalah, even if he already ended Shabbos and started doing Melacha,
:> remnants of the holiness of Shabbos remain.

: Can I infer from this Elya Rabba that if someone has ended Shabbos,
: AND started doing melacha, AND said Havdala Al Hakos, then NO remnants of
: the holiness of Shabbos remain? Are there any poskim who would say that
: in such circumstances, some remnants of the holiness of Shabbos DO remain?

...
: My question is: If all remnants of Shabbos are gone in the above
: circumstances, then in what way are we "escorting the Queen" at the
: Melaveh Malka? In my entire life, I've never been to a Melaveh Malka
: which didn't feel like a celebration that Shabbos is finally over.

We are melaveh a guest *after* they leave the house, and r"l melaveh
a meis *after* petirah. So I'm not sure how compelling this line of
argument is.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 09:16:41AM -0500, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Anyone ever look into why we say you only spend 20% of your wealth
: to complete a positive mitzvah but spend everything to avoid violating
: a negative one? The "source" seems to be "logic" of comparing passive
: vs. active violations, but I'm wondering why, especially since a positive
: mitzvah is doche a negative one.....

I'm posting very empty speculation in the hopes that reawakening the topic
gets someone to write something more meaningful.

"Asei dokheh lav" may be because of the very nature of action vs inaction;
doing is more significant than avoiding. Which doesn't mean that an asei
is more important in an absolute sense.

In particular, when looking at obstacles. While action is more significant
than avoidance, resisting temptation may be more significant than heroic
effort. After all, the Rambam values many little gifts of tzedqah, so
that it becomes a lifestyle, more than a single heroic give.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Eliot

running sore point at home. since baby no 1 was born on leil zot
chanuka, i went home after midnite and lit without a bracha, since
no one home.

1] is minhag haolam not to bentch if no one else is there and it's that
late?

2] RMF says you would bentch with a bracha. is that a daat yachid?

3] does chabad have a different minhag?

I asked:
> My question is: If all remnants of Shabbos are gone in the
> above circumstances, then in what way are we "escorting the
> Queen" at the Melaveh Malka? In my entire life, I've never
> been to a Melaveh Malka which didn't feel like a celebration
> that Shabbos is finally over.

R' Micha Berger answered:
> We are melaveh a guest *after* they leave the house, and r"l
> melaveh a meis *after* petirah. So I'm not sure how compelling
> this line of argument is.

Thanks for trying, but I think my question still stands. Your illustrations may even underscore my point.

When my guest is leaving, and I escort him out, it is true that he has
already left my home. But I did not stay behind. The whole point - the
whole definition of "levaya", if I'm not mistaken - is that I go with him,
together, for the first portion of his trip.

My outgoing guest and I spend this time either silently thinking about how
we'll miss each other, or discussing things of mutual interest. This is
very much like a shaloshudis that continues past tzeis. But a Melaveh Malka
with music and fresh food is like escorting my guest to the road while
discussing a topic the he is uncomfortable with.

Is there anyone who would imagine that the mitzvah of escorting my guest could still be done when he has left town and I'm still at home?

And even more so regarding a meis! We certainly have not yet taken leave of
his physical remains, and I understand that his neshama is also still with
us, at least until kevurah, and I think even through shivah. We literally
escort him, accompanying his body as we bring to to its resting place.

And we spend this time speaking positive things about his life, and how
we'll miss him. We remark how difficult it is to speak of him in the past
tense. Is this how we talk at a Melaveh Malka? Or do we bake fresh pizza?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
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RJoel Rich writes:

>R' Moshe has a tshuva allowing in a case of need for a wedding to take
place erev a "minor" fast day because IIRC it is a machloket in a drabbanan
if the day starts the night before for this purpose.  I haven't seen anyone
mention this as an issue for the upcoming 12/31 into asarah btevet night
for those folks who normally mark the beginning of a new fiscal year with a
friendly gathering. Has anyone seen or heard anything on the topic?<

    The question was when the aveilus of the Three Weeks begins: whether
with the date of 17 Tammuz, or with its fast.  It has no relevance to any
other fast.

EMT
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On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 07:33:51AM -0800, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: running sore point at home. since baby no 1 was born on leil zot
: chanuka

Happy birthday!

:          i went home after midnite and lit without a bracha, since
: no one home.

The AhS 672:7 says that the berakhah is made only if someone else is
there to see it -- even a "tinoq o tinoqes qetzas ba'alei da'as", even
someone who lit for themselves already. Sleeping people don't count.

This appears to be the MB's shitah as well (672:11; H/T RSN for
emailing me a reference).

The MA quotes the Rasha"l as limiting the berakhah to before chatzos,
but the AhS rejects this limitation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org        Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 07:33:51AM -0800, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: running sore point at home. since baby no 1 was born on leil zot
: chanuka

Happy birthday!

:          i went home after midnite and lit without a bracha, since
: no one home.

The AhS 672:7 says that the berakhah is made only if someone else is
there to see it -- even a "tinoq o tinoqes qetzas ba'alei da'as", even
someone who lit for themselves already. Sleeping people don't count.

This appears to be the MB's shitah as well (672:11; H/T RSN for
emailing me a reference).

The MA quotes the Rasha"l as limiting the berakhah to before chatzos,
but the AhS rejects this limitation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org        Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 11:04:39AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote on Areivim:
:>                                                   How tragic that so
:> many still don?t understand that even charity may very well be a sin
:> if it is rooted in hate instead of a true desire to aid those
:> deserving of help.

: Shlomo Hamelech said it: "Vechesed le'umim chatos".

Ironically, the quote is playing on the word tzedaqah and its root in
tzedeq, so we should faster quote the beginning of the pasuq (Mishlei
14:24), "Tzedaqah seromem goy.". But looking at the text Zev actually
quotes:

What would Shelomo haMelekh have said to Sempo Sugihara or Raoul
Wallenberg zikhonam livrakha?

The Medrash (Buber) on Mishlei 14:34 offers two peshatim:
    - Our chata'im are a chesed to the umos ha'olam, since it gives them
      diminion over us.
    - Their chesed is mekhaperes, like a qorban chatas.

Rashi takes the reisha out of discussion saying the goy is yisrael. But
about the seifa, Rashi says Shelomo was discussing a specific cast of
Robin Hood like activity. He doesn't generalize and say that all chesed
le'umim is taking from one and giving to the other. ("Shehayu", not
"she-" or "sheheim".)

Ralbag noted that their chesed is deserving of ahavas H' yisbarakh,
but it's their asceticism ("mah she'inu nafsham") which is chisaron,
not an increase in avodas H'.

Malbim defines a goy as a group that hasve no common gov't or religion,
an am is a group under one gov't, and an umah has one das. The tzedeq
of a goy, despite the lack of unifying principle, uplifts it. Whereas
the le'um's unifying non-Yahadus distorts their concept of chesed.
The Malbim is along similar lines as Zev, but only when speaking of
das-based definitions of chesed.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The greatest discovery of all time is that
mi...@aishdas.org        a person can change their future
http://www.aishdas.org   by merely changing their attitude.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Oprah Winfrey

On 12/24/2014 10:33 AM, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> running sore point at home. since baby no 1 was born on leil zot
> chanuka, i went home after midnite and lit without a bracha, since
> no one home.

What do you mean, nobody was home?  You were home!  Should single people
never light with a brocho?!    Maybe it's different if you have a family
and they're not there to see the lights, becuase they're all asleep;
but where you're the only one, then the only possible pirsumei nisa is
to yourself.

Also, nowadays there are people in the streets at all hours.  The days
when the firewood sellers would pack up and go home half an hour after
dark, and the streets were then empty until dawn, are long gone. So if
you light in a window you will publish the miracle to whomever passes by.

>R' Moshe has a tshuva allowing in a case of need for a wedding to take
>place erev a "minor" fast day because IIRC it is a machloket in a
>drabbanan if the day starts the night before for this purpose.  I
>haven't seen anyone mention this as an issue for the upcoming 12/31
>into asarah btevet night for those folks who normally mark the
>beginning of a new fiscal year with a friendly gathering. Has anyone
>seen or heard anything on the topic?<

    The question was when the aveilus of the Three Weeks begins: whether with the date of 17 Tammuz, or with its fast.  It has no relevance to any other fast.

EMT
===========================================
TY. What is the status of doing ?enjoyable? things on other fast days (e.g.
having a foodless concert)?  My understanding was that the point of those
days (in addition to commemorating destruction) was introspection. If so,
why wouldn?t the same issue of night before apply?
KT
Joel Rich
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On 12/24/2014 02:38 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> The AhS 672:7 says that the berakhah is made only if someone else is
> there to see it -- even a "tinoq o tinoqes qetzas ba'alei da'as", even
> someone who lit for themselves already. Sleeping people don't count.

So what is a person living alone to do?

R' Zev Sero asked:
> So what is a person living alone to do?

If he has a window facing the street, and it is low enough, then he has no
problem. Not everyone has such a home. But it is one of the considerations
to take into account when looking for a home, similar to the distance to
shul, or a location for one's sukkah.

If one has done his best, and still finds himself in this situation, then he does what the halacha tells him to do: Light the menorah without the bracha.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 02:17:26AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Zev Sero asked:
:> So what is a person living alone to do?

: If he has a window facing the street, and it is low enough, then
: he has no problem...

If he is home before shettikhleh haregel min hashuq.

We were talking about lighting before chatzos, in the typical historical
setting where that would be well after shetikhleh, So the AhS ignores
the issue of pirsumei nisa to people there justifying a berakhah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org        than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org   then what need do you have for tomorrow?
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

I wrote:
: If he has a window facing the street, and it is low enough, then
: he has no problem...

R' Micha Berger responded:

> If he is home before shettikhleh haregel min hashuq.
>
> We were talking about lighting before chatzos, in the typical
> historical setting where that would be well after shetikhleh,
> So the AhS ignores the issue of pirsumei nisa to people there
> justifying a berakhah.

I'm not sure if RMB is disagreeing with me or not, so I will expand my words and explain them better.

Earlier, RMB had made reference to MB 672:11, and I concede that the words
there are that he can light all night long with the bracha, "provided that
the members of the household are awake."

RMB also referred to AhS 672:7, which I concede states that "as long as members of the household are awake, he should light with a bracha."

HOWEVER it seems to me that these two poskim are both basing this psak on
two assumptions: (1) That the menorah will be lit indoors where no outsider
can see it, and (2) That even if it would be lit outdoors it would still go
unseen because no one passes by that late at night.

If one looks at the Mishneh Brurah and at the Aruch Hashulchan, it seems
clear TO ME that if one gets home late at night, and he either lives alone
or the whole family is asleep, BUT he can light by a window where there is
a reasonable expectation that it will be seen by passers-by, then he may
indeed light with a bracha, because he is in a situation where "tichleh
regel min hashuk" lasts for much longer than a half-hour.

(Note: There may be a difference between the MB and AhS about whether the
latest time to say the bracha is Chatzos or Alos. I am not addressing that
question in this post.)

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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