Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 23

Mon, 09 Feb 2015

• 1. Torah Only, Only Torah, Wrong Question (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 2. Re: Torah Only (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: How Did Rashi Make a Living? (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: How binding is Minhag? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Birchas Shalom, minhag and textualism (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: FW: Beit Yosef's Algorithm (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Daat Torah? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: breaking protocol (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: These and Those ()
• 10. Re: Birchas Shalom, minhag and textualism (Eli Turkel)
• 11. why is rashi on chumash so popular (saul newman)
• 12. Rabbenu Tam (Eli Turkel)
• 13. Re: Birchas Shalom, minhag and textualism (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Rabbenu Tam (Zev Sero)
• 15. Safeik as Metzi'us (Micha Berger)

When and why did our sages learn to juggle?

When my son, aged about 8, asked this question whilst we were learning
Mishnah Sukah, I took him around to a number of Rabbanim and Talmidei
Chachamim, in the first instance to introduce him to them and an approach
to the way one learns; secondly in order to see what they would say.

What a window into their Hashkafa and how those Hashkafos varied.

In this discussion we should also remember RaMBaM DeOs who speaks of
looking after the machine that serves the purpose of being able to serve
HKBH.

We are asking the wrong question, we ought to be asking how much of our
time and energy do we fritter away on foolish self deceiving nonsense, GOOD
TIMES as Rabbi Avigdor Miller mocked them. You want to be a Kollel man? be
a Kollel man on Sunday, take a lunch and go sit and learn, was Reb
Avigdor's response.

Compare two groups of our people huddled in conversation in or around the
Beis HaMedrash, but one is far more animated than the other. What are the
odds that the less animated is discussing Torah and the more animated
something else?

Our question must be, what do we do to charge ourselves with enthusiasm for
Torah and only Torah?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150209/f58f8099/attachment-0001.htm>

On 02/08/2015 01:12 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>
> Is it not of value to know what authentic Torah leaning is? This has
> nothing to do with "the One True Derech." R. Katz brings many sources
> from rishonim and achronim to back up his thesis that the goal of
> Torah learning is to lead to perfection of character. It won't be
> Torah only if it is not Torah, will it? Isn't knowing what torah
> learning is supposed to be about of great value?

Even if everyone were to agree with this author (it's far from certain
that everyone does, and certainly nobody is obliged to do so), how is
something's goal relevant to its definition?  If the goal of work is to
make money, does that mean anything that produces money is work?  If
the goal of exercise is to improve ones appearance, does that mean anything
that improves ones appearance is exercise?   One would suppose that a
mathematician would think more logically than this.

On 02/08/2015 02:13 PM, via Avodah wrote:
> From: Zev Sero via Avodah avo...@lists.aishdas.org <mailto:avo...@lists.aishdas.org>


>> There is no indication that Rashi ever studied anything but Torah.<<

> He could have picked up French by osmosis from the streets but more
> likely he studied French to some degree.

What makes you think so?  As far as I know we have no idea how good his
French was.  For all we know it may have been atrocious by the standards
of the day.  (Just as, for all we know, Homer's Greek may been atrocious;
how would we know otherwise?)

On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 03:46:43PM +0200, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:
:>>Tangent: Actually I noticed that it's really only those minhagim of
:> the Perushim that coincide with those of Chabad and/or Sephara -- the
:> other two large communities of the yishuv hayashan.
: 
:      That is not quite accurate.  One notable example is the shir shel yom
: for the various chagim umo'adim, where minhag haGra eliminates the day of
: the week shir entirely and says a shir specific for the occasion..

And that's minhag EY? It wasn't in KBY mumble-mumble years ago.

In my experienece it's an example of what I described: a minhag of the
Perushim that did NOT become minhag EY because neither nusach Ari nor
Sepharadim do it too.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Was: how binding is minhag

On Sun, Feb 08, 2015 at 02:46:26PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: RYBS (presumably following more the Gra than sfardim) was very insistent on
: always
: saying sim shalom rather than shalom rav since shalom rav is not mentioned
: in the gemara.

We discussed this 3 years ago.

Lisa wrote:
: I was told that one of them was Nusach Eretz Yisrael and the other was
: Nusach Bavel, and that the mix was a compromise, much like the two
: versions of Hashkiveinu.

> RRW suggested in past iterations that Ashk inherited a range of versions,
> and compromised to try to keep as many as possible. This is why we use
> "Oseh haShalom" for the chasimah during 10 Yemei Teshuvah, and both Sim
> Shalom and Shalom Rav daily.

> According to R' Yechezkel Luger's The Weekday Amidah in the Cairo Genizah,
> 3 different version of the 18th berakhah of the Amidah were found in the
> geniza: the current Ashkenaz Sim Shalom, Sim Shelomekha (which ends either
> "oseh hashalom" or in one subvariant "me'on haberakhos ve'oseh hashalom"),
> and Shalom Rav.

> (Machon Shilo, in their recreation of Nusach EY use "Sim Shelomekha". I
> don't know R' [David bar Chaim]'s justification of his choice. I did notice
> that he pretty consistently ends up with the shorter of the alternatives.
> This could reflect personal bias, or perhaps EY had a tendency toward less
> repetition and fewer adjectives and adverbs than other areas.)

Zev objected:
: Except that Nusach Italy (which always says Ledor Vador, rather than
: dropping it for Ata Kadosh in the silent Sh"E) knows nothing of Shalom Rav.

And me from later in the thread:

> Shalom Rav in particular is a candidate for Nusach EY, as it is used by
> Ashkenazim but not Sepharadim. Although we would have to explain how it
> traveled from EY to Ashkenaz without stopping off in Italy. But still,
> it has the Roman Empire connection (as opposed to Bavel off in the
> Sassanid [neo Persian?] Empire). And if we don't presume a Roman Empire
> connection, then there is little reason to assume Nusach Kahir (Cairo)
> has any connection to Nusach EY.

> Interestingly, the version of Sim Shalom is identical to Ashkenaz.
> The Cairo Geniza version of Sim Shalom doesn't have "bishlomekh" nor
> "berov oz veshalom" in the phrase immediately before the chasimah.

> Moreso than R' Saadia Gaon's, which I'll try to give here:
>     Sim shalom tovah uvrakhah aleinu chein vachesed verachamim
>     uvorkheinu kulanu ke'echad bime'or panekha
>     ki mime'or panekha nasata lanu YYY E-lokeinu
>     Torah vechaim, ahavah vachesed, tzedaqah verachamim
>     vetov be'eimnekh levareik es amkha Yisrael bekhol eis.
>     Sim shalom ba'olam
>     ve'al amkha Yisrael yehi na shalom
>     me'atah ve'ad alom.
>     BA"H hamevreihk es amo Yisrael bashalom.

To me it looks like the Gra's textualism will inevitably lead him drifting
from Nusach Ashkenaz toward Sepharadi practices. Because the practices
and amoraim of EY is so less well documented.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Brains to the lazy
mi...@aishdas.org        are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org   a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Bechinas haOlam

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 02:17:59PM -0500, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
:> I thought that the BY's head-count was not on the pesaq level, but on
:> the sugya level. 2 out of 3 authorities' theoretical bases, not pesaqim.

: Yes, that thought did cross my mind. One would have to read the
: introduction to the S"A stating "shebemakom shshnayim maskimim ldaat
: acahat"'to mean sugya level. However if you think about how these
: authorities state the law, they don't always (often?) tell you their
: theory underlying the sugya and there can be multiple understandings
: of how they got to that result...

I acknowledge that this version of the SA's rule involves considerably
more contribution from the mechaber to decide sevaros when not provided
from which to decide which machloqesin implicitly touch other dinim.

But I saw that as evidence of the accuracy of this version. It gives us
a reason why it can look to others that he violated his own rule in one
instance or another.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you're going through hell
mi...@aishdas.org        keep going.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Winston Churchill
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 05:42:09AM -0500, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: From a recent Harvard Business Review article - The unstructured
: knowledge description sounded to me like R' YBS describing the halachic
: heart/intuition, the structured knowledge description sounded like what
: I would guess many think halachic knowledge is (perhaps the latter is
: true for longer settled issues or more cut and dried ones? ...

I think the difference speaks more to what RHS calls "mesorah". Or what I
have repeatedly described as the need for a poseiq to have had shimush of
a rebbe. Too much of halchic decisionmaking is an inarticulable feel for
how the halakhah works that can't be picked up through book learning.

I yet again recommend Metahalakhah, by R/Dr Moshe Koppel. (As I
have at least once every volume of Avodahsince #1.) Ch. 2 involves
information theory and computability, but much of it is more typical
English seifer. As an appetizer there is his essay in Azure "Judaism as
a First Language" <http://azure.org.il/article.php?id=588>.

The "First Language" model is much like R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik's
mimeticism, but also somewhat different. Halachic rules are an
approximation of something that is inherently more complex in kind than
rules and algorithms. Much the way grammar is only approximated by ever
more complex rules which still never get a foreigner studying the language
in class to the same feel for grammar that the native-speaker has.
(And why TSBP loses something when not be'al peh.) So the ESL student may
know what a past pluperfect is, and I don't, but the native speaker is
more likely to know what is valid poetic license and what will produce
non-English results.

Similarly, a poseiq needs to pick up that feel, not the formal rules.
Unstructured knowledge.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             People were created to be loved.
mi...@aishdas.org        Things were created to be used.
http://www.aishdas.org   The reason why the world is in chaos is that
Fax: (270) 514-1507      things are being loved, people are being used.

On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 04:15:12PM -0500, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
: What about midrash? Different midrashim have different styles.
: Virtually all of them use allegory and diyukim in psukim.  Some,
: like midrash Tanhuma, darshen halachos.  Do midrashim break
: protocol? What are examples of how they do it? What can we learn
: from these examples?

Start by splitting midrashei halakhah from midrashei agadah.

Then, there were different schools of midrashei halakhah, the main ones
aong the tannaim were the schools of Rabbi Aqiva (Mekhilta deR' Shimon
b Yochai, Sifra, Sifrei Zutra, Sifrei on Devarim) and Rabbi Yishma'el
(*the* Mechilta, Sifrei on Shemos and Bamidbar abd Mekhilta Devarim).
More info at <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/midrashei-halakhah>

The fact that our Sifrei is actually woven from the two different
schools leaves a seam that could be readily seen once you know to
look.

In a sense, the school of Rabbi Aqiva "won", because R' Aqiva came
up with the idea of mishnayos, which was followed up on by R' Meir
and finally completed by Rebbe. So mishnayos, which end up replacing
medrashei halakhah as the preferred way of presenting halakhah comes
more from one school than the other.

I never took the time to explore the more populous world of medrashei
agadah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

 




Re: Avodah Digest, Vol 33, Issue 22  
:


In  light of the discussion about Torah only I have decided to post R  
Schwab's essay These and Those at

< http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/these_and_those.pdf  > 

YL



 
 
>>>>>
 
This excellent booklet --  "These and Those" by Rav Schwab -- is one  of 
the most prized items in my library.  I have read it and re-read it many  
times over the years and urged my children and students to read it.  I am  
delighted to find that it is available online as a pdf, because it is no longer  
in print.  I thank RYL for posting this.
 
In his epilogue, Rav Schwab writes:   

"T.I.D.E. and Torah Only need each other for their mutual interests. Both  
systems belong to Klal Yisrael, each filling in the very gap which the  
other leaves open."
 
I feel very strongly that this is true, and that a true Hirschian will  
protect and defend the yeshivaleit who are our reservoir of gedolei Torah for  
the future, our guarantee of survival and our nitzchius.  It doesn't matter  
to me that  the "Torah-only" world doesn't see a reciprocal need to  
recognize the necessity of TIDE in turn.  
 
 
He drew a circle that shut me out--   
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.  
But Love and I had the wit to win:  
We drew a circle that took him in!  
--Edwin Markham


 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------
 




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150208/e1a50d35/attachment-0001.htm>

>
> << To me it looks like the Gra's textualism will inevitably lead him
> drifting
> from Nusach Ashkenaz toward Sepharadi practices. Because the practices
> and amoraim of EY is so less well documented. >>



> As we have discussed many times we generally paskin like the Bavli against
> the yerushalmi and mesechet soferim.
>
The upshot is that minhag Bavel  won opver minhag EY.
While it is true that ancient Ashkenaz had their own local minhagim those
who insist on gemara precedents renounce these
in favor of the gemara (ie Bablyonian) customs.

I higthly recommend the series by R. Krumbein on the Gra. See for example
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/gaon75/04gaon.htm
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/gaon75/08gaon.htm



-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150209/ceca1fee/attachment-0001.htm>

http://www.academia.edu/8022291/The_Secret_of_the_P
opularity_of_Rashi_s_Commentary_on_Torah
to this professor, it is because the medrashim he chose help with the flow
of the narrative
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150208/c24eaff1/attachment-0001.htm>

<<It's based on his being referred to as "gaon", and "rosh yeshivas Ge'on
Yaacov", which suggests that he was seen in the same light as the Geonim
of Bavel, who were full-time roshei yeshivah, supported by the yeshivah. >>

again an indication by far from a proof.
Rabbenu Gershon had titles. Other before Rashi were known as the "great".
Doesnt mean they were supported by the community.
Because Rashi took over some title from the Geonim doesnt mean he was
identical to the
geonim in every way.


from chabad.org

Rabbenu Tam was a wealthy financier and a personal friend of the Governor
of the province. After his father's death, Rabbenu Tam became the head of a
great Yeshivah in his native town. He had numerous disciples, and at one
time his Yeshivah included 80 of the authors of the Tosefoth, noted
Talmudists and Rabbis of large communities.

In his middle age he had a terrible experience and a narrow escape from
death. It was in the year 4907 (1147), on the second day of Shovuos, when
the Crusaders forced their way into town and pillaged and massacred many
Jews. They broke into Rabbenu Tam's house, plundered all his wealth, and
wounded Rabbenu Tam five times. He was, however, saved in the nick of time
by one of the leaders of those wicked men.

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150209/411ccc63/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Feb 09, 2015 at 10:47:46AM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: > To me it looks like the Gra's textualism will inevitably lead him drifting
: > from Nusach Ashkenaz toward Sepharadi practices. Because the practices
: > and amoraim of EY is so less well documented.

: As we have discussed many times we generally paskin like the Bavli against
: the yerushalmi and mesechet soferim.

: The upshot is that minhag Bavel  won opver minhag EY.

But not to the extent we see in minhag haGra.

Learning AhS is eye-opening to see how often the standard Askenazi pesaq
(or perhaps East European, or only Litta, depending on the case) comes
from Rashi, Tosafos and/or the Rosh over the Rif and/or the Rambam which
then turns out that the Ashkenazi rishon's pesaq is consistent with the
Y-mi over the Bavli. Seems like every third or fourth page in hil' Shabbos.

: I higthly recommend the series by R. Krumbein on the Gra. See for example
: http://vbm-torah.org/archive/gaon75/04gaon.htm
: http://vbm-torah.org/archive/gaon75/08gaon.htm

I recommend it too, but due to other Shabbos reading, I'm still just in
the middle of #3.

(I am also a big fan of his "Mussar for Moderns", which is a presentation
of Mussar tailored to today's MO youth; such as his talmidim in
"Gush". Including pulling from many of the Chabaqu"q / neo-Hassidic
sources that have gotten more attention since.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

On 02/09/2015 04:46 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> <<It's based on his being referred to as "gaon", and "rosh yeshivas Ge'on
> Yaacov", which suggests that he was seen in the same light as the Geonim
> of Bavel, who were full-time roshei yeshivah, supported by the yeshivah. >>
>
> again an indication by far from a proof.
> Rabbenu Gershon had titles. Other before Rashi were known as the "great".
> Doesnt mean they were supported by the community.

Gaon does not mean "the great".  It was the specific title of the Bavli
roshei yeshivah.  That Rashi (and as far as we know only Rashi) was referred
to with that title indicates that they saw him as occupying the same position.

> Because Rashi took over some title from the Geonim doesnt mean he was identical to the
> geonim in every way.

Not in every way, perhaps, but surely in the essential job description.



> from chabad.org <http://chabad.org>
>
> Rabbenu Tam was a wealthy financier and a personal friend of the Governor
> of the province.

And they know this how?  What is the source?   I notice that this writer
knows nothing of the wine business that the last writer you cited thought
existed.  I don't know why you keep citing such articles, since there is
no number of them that would add up to evidence of anything.

I never understood the Brisker reluctance to wear tzitzis in a rh"r
(and they don't use community eiruvin, so that means most streets).
The mishnah says that tekheiles einah me'aqeves es halavan, and they are
concerned that perhaps the gemara concludes otherwise. And if the tassle
of 8 lavan strings is not a fulfillment of tzitzis, it is not bateil to
the garment, and wearing it would be hotza'ah.

It's not the possibility that we're not yotzei that bothers me, but the
second bit.

At the end of it all, the person wouldn't wear his 4 cornered garment
without the tassle, in case it is a fulfillment of tzitzis, and therefore
wearing them were possible and the asei must be met. So the safeiq of
whether or not the tassle we wear today fulfills tzitzis creates a real
need to wear them. And if so, why shouldn't they be batel? After all,
the petur to wear decorations on cloths isn't limited to halachically
mandatory add-ons.

So wouldn't the safeiq in one din (are you yotzei without techeiles)
create a reality that is the metzi'us for another din (it would never
be worn without those tassles), and the tzitzis be batul even if the
Brisker's cheshash turned out to be real?

I raised this here before, and don't recall getting an answer. (My
apologies if I forgot your brilliant one.)

But with a little AhS yomi, the question became more accute.

OC 409:6 deals with sefeiqos in eiruv techumin. There is a chazaqah
the eiruv needs to overcome, so safeiq derabbanan lequlah only applies
if the eiruv had a chazaqah of being kosher, so that it's chazaqah
vs chazaqah, and then we have a safeiq as to when it became pasul.

Then he closes that if the eiruv was made with safeiq tereifah, it
is not an eiruv. "Because we need a se'udah that was usable when it
was still day, and this certainly isn't because it is a safeiq
terifah" (MA s"q 9)

So, unlike the reasoning with the tzitzis tassle, the safeiq preventing
him from eating the eiruv food *is* treated as a metzi'us that the food
is unusable and thus not an eiruv.

The safeiq nature of the prohibition is abstracted away, and we just
look at the pesaq that it can't be eaten.

Unlike tzitzis, where we do not say that since the safeiq causes a pesaq
of having to wear tzitzis, the tzitzis are part of the beged.

This case worked the way I would have expected.

AhS OC 416:8 raised the issue again. The topic is still eiruv techumin.
Now it's eiruv for YT where there is a sefeiqa deyoma. (We saw by eiruv
chatzeiros that we [following rov rishonim against the Rambam] treat
sefeiqa deyoma as a safeiq, but not the 2 days of RH.)

You can establish separate eiruvin for each day -- making an eiruv to
the east for day one, and to the west for day 2, for example. However,
the eiruv for day one can't be so far from the eiruv for day 2 that you
cannot get to both eiruvin on day 1. E.g. you can set one to the east
and one to the west of town only if neither are a full 2,000 from town.
The two territories not only have to ovelap, the eiruv for day 1 has to
cover the food of the eiruv for day 2. Because without that ability to
reach the food on day 1, the food isn't usable a moment before day 2,
and the eiruv is pasul.

And RYME spells out that you can NOT say mimah nafshakh: If day 1 is
secular, you can reach the eiruv for day 2. And if day 1 is holy and
needs an eiruv, day 2 doesn't need an eiruv.

Rather, if day 2 requires an eiruv, the fact that the safeiq about day
1 would keep you from reaching the food is enough to pasl the eiruv.

Again, using the pesaq based on safeiq as a metzi'us for a further din,
instead of figuring the din based on the safeiq directly.

So why would wearing white tzitzis, or for that matter any safeiq pasul
tzitzis, outside an eiruv [you would use] be any different?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)