Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 60

Thu, 16 Apr 2015

• 1. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Retzuos that are Black on Both Sides (D)
• 4. Re: Retzuos that are Black on Both Sides (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Retzuos that are Black on Both Sides (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Kenneth Miller)
• 7. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: tefillas haderech (elazar teitz)
• 10. chametz post pesach (saul newman)
• 11. Re: chametz post pesach (Saul Guberman)
• 12. Re: chametz post pesach (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: chametz post pesach (Saul Guberman)
• 14. Re: tefillat haderech (Harry Weiss)
• 15. Re: chametz post pesach (Marty Bluke)
• 16. Eilu v'eilu (Rich, Joel)

At 10:21 AM 4/15/2015, Micha Berger wrote:
>I am trying to understand whether RNIO's problem with the appearance of
>his name on the KosherSwitch.com "approvers" list is because
>a- he feels that use of the switch is zilzul Shabbos, or
>b- he would hold it's gerama.

Does it really matter.  He is saying that he does not approve of its 
use.  Why do you need to know more? YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150415/aef69d30/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 12:17:02PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: Does it really matter.  He is saying that he does not approve of its
: use.  Why do you need to know more?

For the sake of the switch, no. For the sake of understanding the concept
of gerama -- Torah hi, velilamdah ani tzarikh!

Saying this switch isn't gerama, and its use limited to cases where
we can permit gerama, really defies my understanding of the concept.
Or perhaps I misunderstand how it works, in which case the Electrical
Engineer I studied to become (and the neti'ah that motivated the
intent to become one) wants to know.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:34:00 -0400
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
> 1- If the bottom is painted, why wouldn't the cholqim on the Rambam
> consider the paint a chatzitzah between the retzu'ah and the head or arm?

> 2- If the leather is soaked in dye [until it's] absorbed and the leather
> is fully black (a process developed about 12-13 years ago), how do we
> know it's still valid material from which to make a retzu'ah?

1. If it is just soaked, there is no problem of chatzitzah. (Did the fact 
that the pesiloth of the Tsits were soaked in techeles dye constitute a 
problem of chatsisoh? atmahah?) There may be a problem if it was 
subsequently glossed black - which it isn't.

2. Why shouldn't it be valid material after soaking? It's still leather. 
According to halachah, [have not checked this up right now - but if memory 
serves me] you can even use klaf [bdi'eved] for retsuos - as long as it is 
the skin of a kosher beheimoh, its kosher.

Dovid [sofer]

On 04/15/2015 11:34 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> 1- If the bottom is painted, why wouldn't the cholqim on the Rambam
> consider the paint a chatzitzah between the retzu'ah and the head or arm?

Why would it be?  It's part of the retzua.  AFAIK everyone agrees that
it's a hiddur, just not necessary, and most people don't bother.


> 2- If the leather is soaked in dye untile its absorbed and the leather
> is fully black (a process developed about 12-13 years ago), how do we
> know it's still valid material from which to make a retzu'ah?

Why wouldn't it be?  It's still leather, after all.  Where does it say
what colour the leather must be?

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 05:07:04PM +0100, D via Avodah wrote:
: Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:34:00 -0400
: From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
:> 1- If the bottom is painted, why wouldn't the cholqim on the Rambam
:> consider the paint a chatzitzah between the retzu'ah and the head or arm?

: 1. If it is just soaked, there is no problem of chatzitzah. (Did the
: fact that the pesiloth of the Tsits were soaked in techeles dye
: constitute a problem of chatsisoh? atmahah?) ...

So I believe your answer to my first question is that they don't paint
the bottom, they only use my scenario two -- soaking the leather.

About your parenthetical comment... If halakhah requires tekheiles,
it requires blue wool. The completed product would be what the kohein
shouldn't have a chatzitzah under. Not the undyed wool.

:> 2- If the leather is soaked in dye [until it's] absorbed and the leather
:> is fully black (a process developed about 12-13 years ago), how do we
:> know it's still valid material from which to make a retzu'ah?

: 2. Why shouldn't it be valid material after soaking? It's still
: leather....

But it's no longer entirely skin of a kosher beheimah, as the dye
isn't made from skin. It is now a retzuah made of skin + dye. I
could see that either way, and am asking how we (or the posqim among
us) can just assume that this innovation is not a problem.

Just as tekheiles is different than tzemer, perhaps dye-soaked
leather is different in kind than leather. How did we determine
it isn't?

: Dovid [sofer]

Thanks for chiming in. But could you kindly put your full name in your
email header or signature once in a while, so that people know who we're
talking to? One of Avodah's goals is to create chevraschaft, which is
difficult when people are anonymous or partially so.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 12:17:02PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: Does it really matter.  He is saying that he does not approve of its
: use.  Why do you need to know more?

This is like saying, about ANY situation, "He is saying that it is assur.
Why do you need to know if it is d'Oraisa or d'rabanan?" The answer is very
simple: There are some situations which would justify doing it if "merely"
d'rabanan, but not otherwise.  Similarly, there may be situations where
RNIO would allow this it his svara was ABC, but not if his svara was XYZ.

Akiva Miller


____________________________________________________________
Old School Yearbook Pics
View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Search by School & Year. Look Now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/552e9fe45804e1fe4411ast02vuc

Saying this switch isn't gerama, and its use limited to cases where
we can permit gerama, really defies my understanding of the concept.
Or perhaps I misunderstand how it works, in which case the Electrical
Engineer I studied to become (and the neti'ah that motivated the
intent to become one) wants to know.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
_______________________________________________
Sounds to me like r' asher weiss's makeh bpatish definition.
Kt
Joel rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150415/67e392ca/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 07:42:24PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Sounds to me like r' asher weiss's makeh bpatish definition.

You lost me. I wasn't discussing which melakhah -- if any -- one violates
by using electricity in an of itself, but how using this switch relates
to that melakhah.

For example, even if we say that electricity and electronics itself
weren't an issue, the majority of these switches would be installed so as
to turn on fluorescent or incandescent bulbs. Both of which heat filaments
until glowing -- so there is a melakhah of bishul or hav'arah to discuss.

And my question becomes: In that rather typical setting, how the
switch not gerama of one of those two melakhos? (Or possibly both, if
a glowing filament is hav'arah, and the resulting boiling of mercury in
the fluorescent bulb, bishul.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

     REliTurkel wrote:

>Just saw a halacha that to me was a chiddush

That one cannot (or should not) be yotzeh someone else for tefiilat
haderech but everyone should say for them self.


Those agreeing (at least lechatchila) include
R Aviner
R Nebenzahl
R C Kanevsky
R Tuvia Goldstein (who said he convinced RMF)
R Belsky

Not what I have seen in practice.
Anyone know any opinion that does allow it<

     Is there any opinion, even of the five quoted, which holds that one is
 _not_ yotzei even b'diavad?

     As for RET's question, the Kol Bo on Aveilus, quoted in SSK, Perek 64,
footnote 75, states that an onein is obligated in t'fillas haderech, but it
is preferable that he be yotzei with another's b'racha. (I have not seen
the SSK, but have seen it quoted.)

EMT
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150415/b9a7c61f/attachment-0001.htm>

did anyone ever hear of a minhag not to eat chametz till after shavuos?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150415/186f8ffb/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:35 PM, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> did anyone ever hear of a minhag not to eat chametz till after shavuos?

I have a friend who does this. She once told me the origins but I forget
where it came from. I remember that it was very obscure and non
traditional.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 03:35:27PM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: did anyone ever hear of a minhag not to eat chametz till after shavuos?

What did it grow out of? Avoiding she'avar alav es hapesach? A way of
avoiding chodosh, at least during the omer period?

-Micha

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:38 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 03:35:27PM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
>: did anyone ever hear of a minhag not to eat chametz till after shavuos?

> What did it grow out of? ...

It had to do with chodosh and the omer/barley.

> From: Marty Bluke via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
> Given the above R' Shachter (in Nefesh Harav) says that R' Soloveitchik
> did
> not say tefilas haderech when he commuted from Boston to NY to give his
> shiurim. He felt that because it is a tefila b'eis tzara and nowadays
> there
> is no perceived danger and it is routine that there was no reason to say
> it.

I was on a number of trips to Europe with RHS and every morning when the
bus left town he said Tefillas Haderech over the loudspeaker.

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: multipart/alternative
Size: 369 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150416/a092fe27/attachment-0001.bin>

Question: If one doesn't view eilu v'eilu as multiple truths but rather one
truth and one nice try (but we don't know which is which), how do you
explain the approach to halachic process which ignores academic findings
concerning texts or historical circumstances?
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20150416/1dc964bc/attachment.htm>

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)