Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 104

Sun, 26 Jul 2015

• 1. Re: De-Chokifying Arayos (including MZ) (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Shimon haTzaddik and Alexander the Macedonian (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: De-Chokifying Arayos (including MZ) (H Lampel)
• 4. Re: De-Chokifying Arayos (including MZ) (Meir Shinnar)
• 5. Re: De-Chokifying Arayos (including MZ) (Kenneth Miller)
• 6. Relative Priorities (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Fwd: artificial meat (Eli Turkel)
• 8. B'Leil Zeh (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: B'Leil Zeh (Micha Berger)

R' Aharon Lichtenstein was bothered by the difference in opinion regarding
marital intimacy between Chazal who seem to have a very positive attitude
and the Rishonim (especially the Rambam) who have a very negative attitude
and the attitude of contemporary authorities who seem to have swung back to
the positive side:

"We, for our part, are confronted by a quandary of our own; and it is dual.
At one plane, we ask ourselves, within the context of our learn- ing?it is
Torah, and we must learn?a simple and straightforward ques- tion. In light
of the predominant evidence we have noted from Hazal and, particularly, its
halakhic component, how and why did Rambam, Ramban, and some other
rishonim, deviate so markedly from their prevalent attitude? With reference
to yetser (the inclination)?generic in connotation but defined by Rashi as
shel tashmish (sexual desire)?Hazal identify it as one of a triad which,
optimally, one should ?let the left hand deflect and the right hand bring
close? (Sota 47a). One sometimes gets the impression that the proportion
was subsequently inverted.
...

To the extent that we do succeed in harmonizing the positions of Hazal and
of rishonim, we ameliorate the pressure of one issue but exacerbate that of
another. For we are brought, in turn, to a second quandary: our own. While
I have conducted no empirical survey, I believe there is little question
regarding the sensibility of the contempo- rary Torah world, irrespective
of camp and orientation. We stand, fun- damentally, with R. Bar-Shaul. We
assert the value of romantic love, its physical manifestation included,
without flinching from the prospect of concomitant sensual pleasure; and we
do so without harboring guilt or reservations. "

Source: http://traditionarchive.org/news/_pdfs/lichtenstein.pdf
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The story of Shim'on haTzaddiq, in the office of kohein gadol, meeting
Alexander the Great, as told in Yuma 69a, is pretty well known.
<http://dtorah.com/otzar/shas_rashi.php?ms=Yoma&;df=69a>

Josephus told the story earlier, in Antiquities 11:8.
<http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-11.htm>

The Daily Mail recently covered what appears to be another retelling
<http://j.mp/1HLxpUF>:

    Mosaic of Alexander the Great meeting a Jewish priest is the first
    ever non-biblical scene to be discovered inside a synagogue

    - Artwork was uncovered in a fifth-century synagogue in Huqoq, Israel
    - May depict Alexander the Great, based on the presence of elephants
    - Scene is the first non-biblical story to be found in an ancient
      synagogue
    - Depictions of Biblical hero Samson are also part of the decorative
      floor

    By Sarah Griffiths for MailOnline
    Published: 03:43 EST, 15 July 2015 | Updated: 07:21 EST, 15 July 2015

    ...
    The artwork was uncovered in the east aisle of a fifth-century
    synagogue in the ancient Jewish village of Huqoq.
    ...
    The largest top strip contains the scene showing a meeting between
    two men, who perhaps represent the legendary warrior and a Jewish
    high priest.

    In the scene, a bearded soldier wearing battle dress and a purple
    cloak leads a bull by the horns, followed by other soldiers and
    elephants with shields tied to their sides.

    He is meeting with a grey-haired, bearded elderly man wearing a
    ceremonial white tunic and mantle, accompanied by young men with
    sheathed swords, also in ceremonial clothes.

Southern Galil, 5th cent CE. Within a generation of the compilation of
Mes Yuma.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I agree with all those who reacted to my remark about Ramban vs
Rambam, and I am especially grateful to Marty Bluke for the link to
Rav Lichtenstein ztl's comprehensive article that provides the sources
and notes the challenges they present. (I think that link was recently
posted on R. Gil Student's blog.)

As R. Akiva Miller has pointed out, it was Rebbi Eliezer of Nedarim
20b, referenced at the end of Kitzur 150:1 (and, as RAM pointed out,
the Mechaber OC 240:8) who is understood to have expressed duress during
the marital process. (And who is a Tanna, not an Amora, as I incorrectly
stated.)

Also, RAM asked,
> For purposes of Talmud Torah, where is this Ramban who "strongly disagreed
> with the Rambam when it comes to a marital setting"?

And again, I stand corrected. The Rav who gave me my "chassan shmuess"
was probably referring to the /Iggeress ha-Kodesh,/ which, as Rav
Lichtenstein pointed out in his article, is often erroneously attributed
to Ramban. But apparently, had Rav Lichtenstein been giving me the
"chassan shmuez," I would have come away with the same halacha l'ma'aseh
regarding attitude. He writes:

    We cannot, as the author of the /Iggeret ha-Kodesh/ could not, abandon
    the conviction that so central a component of human nature is not part
    of the /tov me'od/ of primordial creation. Consequently, impelled
    by our spiritual instincts and animated by the faith instilled in us
    by our Torah mentors, we opt for consecration rather than abstinence.

Zvi Lampel

Again, one has to be very careful. There are four different sources here.

1)Shmona Prakim -- chapter 4 -- where reason for laws on arayot is to
limit Sexuality -- in the sense of a golden mean.

2)Shmona Prakim -- chapter 6 -- where desire for things forbidden only
by halakhah is endorsed as not a spiritual flaw

3) MN 3:35, where he describes category 14 of mitzvot -- relating to
arayot -- in terms similar to source 1, as the rambam notes and meforshim
point out.

4) MN 3:49 -- where purpose of hilchot arayot is to instill disgust --
not merely control and limit

Therefore, RZL is correct that MN 3:35 refers to Spm but chapter 4. One
can reconcile sources 1,2 and 3, or 1,3 and 4 -- but difficult to recocile
all 4.

I would ad that source 2 is problematic, in that it's view of halakhah
as an almost arbitrary set of limitations, seems quite different than
the rambam's normal presentation of the purpose of Halacha.

Meir Shinnar

Many posters - and their quoted sources - have compared the desire for
intercourse with the desire for food. What I have not seen is any
comparison between the *enjoyment* of intercourse and the enjoyment of
food.

Halacha restricts our eating in many ways, and we are taught that this is
to curb our desires. But there are seem to be many exceptions to this, and
I don't see parallels to intercourse.

We have mitzvos where eating is merely a physical act used as a means to
some other end. Achilas Matza might be the best example of this. We need to
internalize the matzah and its lessons, but any enjoyment that we might get
from this eating is utterly irrelevant. This seems quite comparable to the
intercourse, where it is merely a means towards having children. The
enjoyment that one gets from the intercourse (like from the matza) is
irrelevant - or perhaps even lower, to be eschewed.

One might cite Rama Even Haezer 25:2, which lists various permitted forms
of intercourse, but to me, that is like saying "You can eat your meat
broiled or cooked or fried, as long as you don't put milk in it, and don't
eat it too often either." This is NOT what we are told about meat. Rather
we are told that eating meat is the only way to enjoy Yom Tov.

We are taught that eating is proper and good. When a simcha arises, we must
make a meal so as to properly celebrate it. And if there are overlapping
simchas, we should add an extra course so that each simcha gets its due.
Red wine is more appropriate than white, but if you personally enjoy white,
then go for it.

Zeh haklal: Eating is proper as long as you don't overdo it. Sex is proper
as long as you minimize it. - Is the difference really that subtle? To me,
it is as subtle as a brick.

R' Marty Bluke posted:

> Also see RAL's article OF MARRIAGE: RELATIONSHIP AND RELATIONS
> ( http://traditionarchive.org/news/_pdfs/lichtenstein.pdf ) where
> he discusses this question and brings many of the sources.

Indeed he does bring many sources. And I was particularly intrigued by his
conclusion, that the general thrust of recent authorities seems to be very
different from before that:

> To the extent that we do succeed in harmonizing the positions of
> Hazal and of rishonim, we ameliorate the pressure of one issue but
> exacerbate that of another. For we are brought, in turn, to a
> second quandary: our own. While I have conducted no empirical
> survey, I believe there is little question regarding the
> sensibility of the contemporary Torah world, irrespective of camp
> and orientation. ... We assert the value of romantic love, its
> physical manifestation included, without flinching from the
> prospect of concomitant sensual pleasure; and we do so without
> harboring guilt or reservations. We insist, of course, upon its
> sanctification?this, within the context of suffusive kedusha of
> carnal experience, generally. 

and yet, a page later,

> Assuming these facts to be correct ? as regards my own spiritual
> environs, I can attest directly ? we ask ourselves: How and why
> do we depart from positions articulated by some of our greatest
> ? "from whose mouths we live and from whose waters we drink" -
> and, is this departure legitimate? Are we victims of the Zeitgeist,
> swept along by general socio-historical currents? Do we tailor our
> attitude on this issue to conform to appetitive convenience and
> erotic desire? Have we, in this case, adopted a self-satisfying
> posture of facile world-acceptance clothed in culturally correct
> garb?

I did not find his answers to these questions very satisfying.
But I do find his *asking* them to be extremely comforting.

Akiva Miller


____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
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A yahrtzeit shiur is "being sponsored" at the same time as your regular
learning seder. Evaluate the various score cards in shamayim (yours, the
niftar's, your chavrutah's) depending on whether you attended the shiur or
seder (all other things being equal).

She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,

Joel Rich

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Technological advances are bringing us to ask a pressing question: Does
Judaism consider meat created in a laboratory to be kosher? Does Jewish law
even consider it to be meat?The question takes on particular significance
now, during the nine days, the traditional period of mourning that precedes
Tisha B'Av when observant Jews abstain from meat. (Well, theoretical
significance, at least ? the world's first lab-grown hamburger, created in
2013, cost a cool $325,000
<http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.540495>and it's
not exactly available at your neighborhood grocery store yet.)Some kashrut
experts are ready to rule the burger kosher, and not only that, parve,
reported Ynet reporter Koby Nachshoni
<http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4683030,00.html>? meaning
observant Jews, who won't eat milk and meat together, can eat their
test-tube burger topped with cheese. Furthermore, the halachic authorities
with whom Nachshon consulted even said this would apply to test-tube pork ?
so make that a bacon cheeseburger.But, no surprise here, not everyone
agrees about that.Chabad addressed the issue
<http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid
/2293219/jewish/Is-the-Lab-Created-Burger-Kosher.htm>,
too, noting that there are precedents for test-tube meat in the ancient
Jewish sources.

see

http://www.haaretz.com/life/food-wine/1.667580

-- 
Eli Turkel



-- 
Eli Turkel
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Last night in the shul that I davened B'Leil Zeh was said with great 
fervor. However,  I am wondering if it should have been said at all.

B'Leil Zeh is referring to the night of the 9th of Av and the many 
things that occurred then.  Last night was, of course,  the night of 
the 10th of Av.  Does it really make sense to have said B'Leil 
Zeh  on the 10th of Av?

YL

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:30:37AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: B'Leil Zeh is referring to the night of the 9th of Av and the many
: things that occurred then.  Last night was, of course,  the night of
: the 10th of Av.  Does it really make sense to have said B'Leil Zeh
: on the 10th of Av?

Now that you made me think about the question, I would ask the reverse
one. Bayis sheini was set aflame shortly before sheqi'ah on the 9th and
burned through the 10th.

So wouldn't beleil zeh only fit a postponed ta'anis?

As for bayis rishon... I'm still sorting my way through understandings
of Yechezqeil and the Yerushalmi.

RMT, kedarko (see <http://www.hamakor.org>) touches on a nice subset of
sources at
http://download.yutorah.org/2012/1053/Tisha_Bav_To-Go_-_5771_R
abbi_Torczyner.pdf

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Cc: R' Mordechai Torczyner

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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