Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 121

Thu, 10 Sep 2015

• 1. Eating Before Shofar (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Re: 13 Middos (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Re: 13 Middos (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: 13 Middos (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: 13 midos (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Eating Before Shofar (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: 13 Middos (Zev Sero)
• 8. thermostats (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Chitzonios and Tereifos (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Book review: The Torah encyclopedia of the animal kingdom ()
• 13. Re: 13 Middos (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 14. Thinking about, knowing about, and knowing G-d (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: hakarat hatov (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: ceremony in halacha (Micha Berger)

And if you can't daven on an empty stomach on a weekday without thinking about
breakfast, then how can you daven on an even emptier stomach on Rosh
Hashana without thinking about lunch?


Kal v?chomer, how can you daven on T?B and Y?K when you wake up without having
even drinking or eating and then must go another good 12 hours on an empty stomach?

R' Zev Sero wrote;
> "It's described as a secret that the Malach Hamaves gave Moshe, that
> ketores stops plagues.  Moshe didn't tell Aharon what kavanos to
> have, just take some ketores and go there.  And when Aharon got there
> the Malach Hamaves protested, and wanted to continue his work, so
> obviously it was the ketores that was stopping him, not anything else.
> How is that not an explicit statement that it works like a magic spell?"

Rashi in Chumash quoting the Mechilta offers a second explanation of why
the ketores was used to end the plague. Bnei Yisrael were complaining
about the ketores that it was a sam hamaves, that it killed people. The
ketores killed Nadav and Avihu, it killed the 250 people, therefore
Hashem said watch that it can stop the plague and that sin is what really
kills people.

We see clearly from this explanation that there was nothing magical
about using the ketores, rather Hashem wanted to make a point to the
Jewish people about the ketores.

R' Micha Berger wrote:

<<< The notion of magic words that gain even a measure of mechilah without
necessitating teshuvah would be very problematic. >>>

True, but I think the notion of magic days and procedures that gain even a
measure of kapparah without necessitating teshuvah is also very
problematic. (Or perhaps "confusing" would be a better description, as it
moves the focus away from a "problematic halacha", chalila, and towards my
obligation to understand it.)

Akiva Miller
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On Tue, Sep 08, 2015 at 10:35:55AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: True, but I think the notion of magic days and procedures that gain even a
: measure of kapparah without necessitating teshuvah is also very
: problematic...

And I don't believe there is such a thing, so I have no problem.

I suggested twice now 2007
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol23/v23n174.shtml#12 and 2010
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol30/v30n130.shtml that
itzumo shel yom mechaperes only someone who acknowledges and embraces
the etzem shel yom.

From 2007:
> My understanding is that itzumo shel yom is mechapeir, but without inuyim,
> one isn't connected to that etzem. IOW, someone who eats on YK doesn't
> get kapparah, but someone who observes YK gets kapparah from YK itself,
> not the zekhus of observance.

> And it's clear from R' Elazar ben Azaryah on Yuma 86a that YK is never
> effective in and of itself.
> - For an asei, teshuvah is effective
> - For a regular lav, teshuvah must first achieve selichah (removal of
>   onesh) before YK can effect kaparah
> - For a chayav kareis, one needs teshuvah and YK for selichah, and onesh
>   brings kaparah
> - For chillul Hashem, only misah brings kaparah.

> The philosophical problems are
> (1) The justice in YK being mechapeir
> (2) Given a ba'asher hu sham approach, why would onesh or misah in and
>     of itself help?

> I couldn't make heads or tails of it without stretching the notion,
> and saying that YK is mechapeir to the extent that one allows oneself to
> experience the soul-changing nature of YK, and thus change the ba'asher
> hu sham. Similarly oneshim or misah.

I know all this could be seen as dachuq BUT, Divine Justice is the 11th
iqar. I would prefer to take a number of chazal's statements as colloquial
shorthand for more nuanced ideas than to dismiss what we have blessed as
a defining feature of Yahadus. Or IOW, given that Ani Maamin and Yigdal
made it into the siddur, I feel the burden rests on those who take itzumo
shel yom in its simple sense.

(And yes, "problematic" should be tken as "a problem for us to
understand.")

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef

On 09/08/2015 06:50 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:
> R' Zev Sero wrote;

>> "It's described as a secret that the Malach Hamaves gave Moshe, that
>> ketores stops plagues.  Moshe didn't tell Aharon what kavanos to
>> have, just take some ketores and go there.  And when Aharon got there
>> the Malach Hamaves protested, and wanted to continue his work, so
>> obviously it was the ketores that was stopping him, not anything else.
>> How is that not an explicit statement that it works like a magic spell?"

> Rashi in Chumash quoting the Mechilta offers a second explanation of
> why the ketores was used to end the plague. Bnei Yisrael were
> complaining about the ketores that it was a sam hamaves, that it
> killed people. The ketores killed Nadav and Avihu, it killed the 250
> people, therefore Hashem said watch that it can stop the plague and
> that sin is what really kills people.
>
> We see clearly from this explanation that there was nothing magical
> about using the ketores, rather Hashem wanted to make a point to the
> Jewish people about the ketores.

Yes, this is an alternative explanation, offered because the primary
explanation leaves some question unanswered.  But it is the second
explanation rather than the first, because the problem with it is
obvious: Hashem didn't tell Moshe to do this.  Moshe told Aharon on
his own initiative, which is why the gemara wonders how he knew that
it would work.  This is also why the Malach Hamaves challenged Aharon's
right to stop him; if the instruction had come from Hashem he would
have had no reason to object to being stopped.


-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On 09/08/2015 05:10 AM, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
> Kal v?chomer, how can you daven on T?B and Y?K when you wake up
> without having even drinking or eating and then must go another good
> 12 hours on an empty stomach?

Absolutely.  But you don't have a choice.

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On 09/08/2015 11:14 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 08, 2015 at 10:35:55AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> : True, but I think the notion of magic days and procedures that gain even a
> : measure of kapparah without necessitating teshuvah is also very
> : problematic...
>
> And I don't believe there is such a thing, so I have no problem.
>
> I suggested twice now 2007
> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol23/v23n174.shtml#12  and 2010
> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol30/v30n130.shtml  that
> itzumo shel yom mechaperes only someone who acknowledges and embraces
> the etzem shel yom.

Rebbi is the one who says Itzumo shel yom mechaper, and he explicitly
says that one who eats on YK is automatically forgiven the moment he
swallows the food, so that the only way to get kares for eating on YK
is to choke on the food and die before swallowing it.

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

as thermostats for the house get more sophisticated do they present a
shabbat problem?

http://www.cnet.com/products/nest-learning-thermostat-t
hird-generation/?ftag=CAD1acfa04

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I actually thought pruzbul only works because ha'aramah is okay (sometimes)
when you're avoiding a derabbanan.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 09/09/2015 01:37 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I actually thought pruzbul only works because ha'aramah is okay
> (sometimes) when you're avoiding a derabbanan.

Whether it's allowed is a different question from how it works.  Moser
Shtorosav leveis din worked even when shmitah was d'oraisa.  Tosfos
says that Hillel didn't invent it, he merely legitimised it.  Before
his day it was known, but it was considered unethical, and no reputable
beis din would go along with it.  To do it required finding a fly-by-
night beis din willing to entertain it, so upstanding lenders didn't
take advantage, and instead were reluctant to lend.

Then Hillel decreed his "solution for rich and poor", which was to
instruct botei din to accept and even encourage such applications,
so that people would be willing to lend.  And he only felt comfortable
doing so because shmita was d'rabonon.


-- 
Zev Sero               KvChT
z...@sero.name

On Wed, Sep 02, 2015 at 09:30:46PM -0400, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
: In Avodah V33n118, R'Micha wrote:
:> However, I can't picture drawing the conclusion that chitzonius is
:> more important than penimius.

: Isn't this yet another example in *halachah* of working only with what can
: be seen?

How is the surface of a lung or brain more visible than the innards?
The only difference is how much cutting is required.

In general, halakhah only deals with what can be seen in principle, not
what happens to be visible in this instance. You can't eat unchecked
lettuce any more readily because the light bulb blew in the room
you're in. And in principle, these things can be checked.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Re: Book review: The Torah encyclopedia of the animal kingdom - Rabbi Natan 
 Slifkin
 
 
 
From: Ben Rothke via Areivim <_areivim@lists.aishdas.org_ 
(mailto:arei...@lists.aishdas.org) >


>>   "The Torah encyclopedia of the animal kingdom" is the latest book by  
Rabbi
Natan Slifkin.  I found it to be a fascinating work.  My  review is here:
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/book-review-the-torah-encyclopedia-
of-the-ani
mal-kingdom


<http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/book-review-the-torah-encyclopedia-o
f-the-an
imal-kingdom>

Let  me know what you think. <<
 
--Ben Rothke
 
 


>>>>>  

I think the book is magnificent.  I've seen the first volume and read  a 
good chunk of it (the projected second volume is not out yet).  It  is a 
fascinating work based on tremendous research, and also  aesthetically beautiful. 
 The first volume is about wild animals mentioned  in the Torah.  The 
projected second volume I believe is about domestic  and kosher animals.
 
The book definitively answers, at least to my satisfaction, a question I've 
 wondered about for a long time:  What is a re'em?  
 
According to wiki, Re'em is mentioned nine times in the Hebrew Bible (Job  
39:9-10, Deuteronomy 33:17, Numbers 23:22 and 24:8; Psalms 22:21, 29:6 and  
92:10; and Isaiah 34:7).

 
In Moshe's brachos to the shevatim he says Yoseph has "the horns of a  
re'em" (Dev. 33:17). Bil'am says when Hashem took the Jews out of  Egypt He had 
"like the strength  of a re'em"  (Bamidbar  23:22).
 
R' Slifkin demonstrates that it is an aurochs, a huge and  powerful horned 
animal, a wild ox, nearly the size of an elephant,  that lived in Europe, 
Asia and North Africa.  It went extinct only about  400 years ago.  The last 
recorded aurochs died in Poland in 1627.
 
BTW a description and drawing of the aurochs can be seen on pages 17 -  18 
of a lovely 28-page monograph that is particularly appropriate for this  
season. See *Exotic Shofars: Halachic Considerations* by R' Natan Slifkin. 
 
http://zootorah.com/assets/media/essays/ExoticShofars.pdf



--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============



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R' Micha Berger wrote:
<<< The notion of magic words that gain even a measure of mechilah without necessitating teshuvah would be very problematic. >>>

------------------------------ 
I see it as more of a symbol of Hashem?s love for His people: ?If you sin,
even if you?re not up to doing the Teshuvah that you should be doing,
here?s a ?ticket? of sorts that I?m giving you _now_ to show my love for
you, that if you ?remind? me of it after you sin, that will demonstrate
that you see yourselves as close to me, and I?ll give you some measure of
forbearance for the sins, even in the absence of full Teshuvah.?

The best Mashal I could think of for this is a PBA placard ? you buy it and
put it in your car, and when the cop pulls you over for speeding, you show
it to him and he goes easy on you, because he sees that you?re really a
friend of the police. NOT because you demonstrated regret for speeding,
necessarily. 

Does that make sense?

KT,
MYG

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 12:27:43AM -0400, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Areivim wrote:
: R' ZS:
:> The Nachum in your story is too busy to think about HKBH, and that's not
:> good, but OTOH HKBH Himself said "I wish they would forget me and keep my
:> Torah", so this Nachum is better than someone who is constantly
:> thinking about HKBH but doesn't keep mitzvos.   But this is why Tanya
:> (ch 41) says to interrupt ones learning once an hour to think about why one
:> is learning.

: This discussion reminds me that there's another step - not only to think
: about Hashem, but to _know_ about Hashem, as in the old story (excerpted
: from a piece I wrote for "A Daily Dose of Torah"):

: R' Levi Yitzchok of Berditchev studied for an extended period of time with
: the Maggid, R' Dov Ber of Mezeritch. When he returned, his father-in-law -
: who did not approve of R' Levi Yitzchok's leanings towards chassidus - asked
: him, "What did you learn there?" R' Levi Yitzchok answered, "I learned that
: Hashem exists." His father-in-law, annoyed, protested that everyone knows
: that, and to prove it, asked the maid, "Does Hashem exist?" She answered,
: "Certainly!" 
: "She says it," R' Levi Yitzchok responded, "but I know it!"

: Certainly pertinent to Malchiyos. 

I often quote something R/Prof Shalom Carmy wrote in
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol07/v07n087.shtml#07> (Aug '01):
> [RGStudent: <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol07/v07n086.shtml>]
>> However, in his Al HaTeshuvah (pp. 195-201), R. Yosef Dov Soloveitchik 
>> investigates what it means to "know" God.  As he points out, it is 
>> impossible to know God.  Rather, the Rambam means that we are obligated to 
>> constantly recognize God's existence.  As it says in Mishlei (3:6), "In all 
>> your ways know Him."  Cf. Rabbeinu Yonah's commentary to Mishlei, ad loc.

> People who throw around big words on these subjects always seem to take
> for granted things that I don't.

> The people who keep insisting that it's necessary to prove things about
> G-d, including His existence, seem to take it for granted that devising
> these proofs is identical with knowing G-d.

> Now if I know a human being personally the last thing I'd do, except as
> a purely intellectual exercise, is prove his or her existence.

RMYG's point is similar to that in the quote from RGS.

There is a difference between knowing about Gcd and knowing Gcd. 

The latter is experiential, and doesn't demand proof. And IMHO more
related to Malkhios.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org        All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org   to be as human as possible while we are here.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Anonymous MD, while a Nazi prisoner

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 04:56:04PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Micha Berger:
:> I do not even know of a term for requiring repaying a favor. Although
:> there is meishiv ra'ah tachas tovah (Mishlei 17:13, c.f. Bereishis 44:4,
:> Shemuel I 25:21, Yirmiyahu 18:20, Tehillim 35:12, 38:21, 109:5). Not an
:> obligation to repay as much as an issur against doing them wrong.

: "Mah ashiv laShem, kol tagmulohi alai?"

I do not see obligation here. Rather, how can I possibly repay, given
that everything I have is from Him. Even if voluntarily. Therefore
(next pasuq), I will simply recognize what He gave me (kos yeshu'os esa)
and that He was the One Who gave it (uvsheim H' eqra), follow through
on what I already promised....

Do you see new obligations in this pereq?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 12:02:01PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: RHS following RYBS insists there is no such thing as ceremony in Judaism.
: I am not sure I agree but in any case there are many things that appear as
: ceremony to the average layman. Some examples include (inyama de-yoma)
...

It's an intersting point, but relating it to RYBS's position just
confuses the matter. You're using the word "ceremony" in nearly
the opposite sense. And while you note that:
: I again stress that I am using ceremony in the way that most peopleview it.
: Of course RHS would counter that these are halachic constructs and not
: ceremonies. This is true in the halachic view but not in the popular view

This isnt' merely an answer, it's an indication that you're discussing
two different topics. There is no question, just a miscommunication.

Anyway, the contrast between the usages of the word "ceremony" interested
me.

You listed a number of cases where a halachic legality can be accomplished
through something the lay-person considers meaningless ritual: pruzbul,
mechiras chameitz, heter isqa, ha'aramos, etc..

RYBS made that statement about ceremony in the sense of ritual in which
the person finds meaning, but lacks halachic structure.

The two examples that most readily leap to mind are (1) his disparaging
kiruv that focuses on white tablecloths and shiny Shabbos candelabra,
and (2) his modifying the minhagim of the Three Weeks and Nine Days
because leshitaso, the minhagim must follow the same forms as ones found
in hilkhos aveilus. I posted about this in Aug '08 at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol25/v25n287.shtml#06>.

I also noted in 2011 that RYBS's position that minhag must mirror halachic
structure is in opposition to the Brisker Rav's (his uncle's) shitah. RYZS
holds that one makes berakhos on minhagim that have a cheftzah shel
mitzvah (eg lighting a Chanukah menorah in shul), and that the Rambam
and Rabbeinu Tam don't argue about that. What they do argue about is
whether Chatzi Hallel is close enough to Hallel to qualify for a berakhah.

However, leshitas RYBS, there are no such minhagim that wouldn't require
a berakhah. If Chatzi Hallel didn't require a berakhah because it's not
close enough to the cheftzah shel mitzvah, it would be "ceremony", and not
a valid minhag. He therefore would have to reject his uncle's chiddush.

Neo-Chassidus is basically a MO rebellion to this kind of Halakhic
Man approach to Yahadus.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
mi...@aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard


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