Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 123

Sun, 13 Sep 2015

• 1. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Zev Sero)
• 2. ceremony (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: ceremony (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Chitzonios and Tereifos (Akiva Miller)
• 5. asmachta (saul newman)
• 6. A Gutte Yahr - A Good Year? (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: A Gutte Yahr - A Good Year? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Book review: The Torah encyclopedia of the animal kingdom (Lisa Liel)
• 11. Re: A Gutte Yahr - A Good Year? (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: A Gutte Yahr - A Good Year? (Lisa Liel)
• 13. Re: A Gutte Yahr - A Good Year? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: A Gutte Yahr - A Good Year? (Micha Berger)

I have been asking this question to various people, and several have
suggested that the answer is somewhere in the range of "hefker bes din"
and "amiraso legavoah kimsiraso lahedyot".  IOW, beis din doesn't need
to make a kinyan; its inherent power is sufficient to take possession
of your loans as soon as you verbally relinquish them.

-- 
Zev Sero               KvChT
z...@sero.name

<<Anyway, the contrast between the usages of the word "ceremony" interested me
>>

It would seem that RYBS's definition of a ceremony is almost a tautology.
If it is anything of religious significance then its not a ceremony.
Otherwise who cares.
It is only modern customs that present a difficulty because we don't
establish new categories. In the old days customs like lighting the menorah
in shul or havdala in shul became invested with religious significance
because they were public customs

Question minyana d-yoma
Is the custom of "simanim" on RH a ceremony?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 06:02:04PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: It would seem that RYBS's definition of a ceremony is almost a tautology.
: If it is anything of religious significance then its not a ceremony.

If a ritual is of halachic significance then it's not a ceremony (as
RYBS used the word in coining the aphorism we're discussing). Now,
to Halakhic Man, one can say there is no Yahadus except halakhah, and
therefore ceremony is not part of Yahadus.

So, RYBS's position on ceremony is a natural consequence of Halakhic
Man, but they aren't a tautology according to other derakhim.

To other hashkafos, white tablecloths and shiny Shabbos licht may not
define Shabbos, but they can for many help foster the atmosphere
hilkhos Shabbos create.

Which is why I mentioned the spread of Chavaquq-like Judaism in YU.
Because Chassidus is big on ritual.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You are where your thoughts are.
mi...@aishdas.org                - Ramban, Igeres haQodesh, Ch. 5
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Micha Berger wrote:

<<< The bug in a dark room is something we are in principle capable of
seeing, the invisibility isn't a feature of the bug. Similarly, the problem
inside the lung is one an eye is capable of seeing, the invisibility isn't
an aspect of the deformity itself. In both cases, the cheftzah itself is
within the realm of human experience, at least in the right situation. >>>

R' Michael Poppers responded:

<<< I am noting the dissimilarity to help you understand that without
Superman's vision or an external tool to open a path to it, the inside of a
lung is not the same as a visible bug that is only visible under
this-worldly lighting conditions. >>>

The lungs of a *dead* cow are easily accessible if one has a knife; no
super-vision is needed there. It is only the lungs of a *living* cow where
one would need super-vision (especially if I need the cow to stay alive for
more milk next week).

Hmmm... Do we consider the lungs of a living cow as visible like a large
insect, or as nonexistent like beitzei kinim? The nafka mina is the kashrus
of that cow's milk. I would *like* to say that the lungs are invisible and
inconsequential. But IIRC we can drink the milk because of rov - most lungs
are kosher. There is a real possibility that the lungs are treif, and we
deal with that possibility in a manner *other* than "lo nitna Torah
l'malachei hashareis".

Akiva Miller
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see point  5   ,   on the idea  that could asmachta  be a talmudic  example
 of , well let the reader decide
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2015/09/artscroll-and-more.html
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It is customary at this time of year to wish others "A Gutte 
Yahr"  (A good year)  However,  aren't we supposed to believe that 
whatever Hashem does is for the good,  so no matter what will happen 
in the year to come,  it will be a good year.  (We may not see it 
this way,  but again whatever Hashem does is good.)

Thus,   I do not see any purpose in wishing others a "Good year."

Any explanations and or comments will be appreciated.

YL

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 01:23:04PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: It is customary at this time of year to wish others "A Gutte Yahr"
: (A good year)  However,  aren't we supposed to believe that whatever
: Hashem does is for the good,  so no matter what will happen in the
: year to come,  it will be a good year.  (We may not see it this way,
: but again whatever Hashem does is good.)

From my blog post at http://www.aishdas.org/asp/tireh-betov

:-)BBii!
-Micha

Shetir'u baTov

The Bostoner Rebbe (of Boston) commented once on the expression
"Shanah tovah umsuqah - a good and sweet new year", which is related
to the famous custom of having apple and honey on Rosh haShanah.What
does "umsuqah -- and sweet" add, beyond the notion of "tovah -- good"?
As Rabbi Aqiva often said, "All that the All Merciful does, He does for
the good". An echo of the words of one of his rabbeim, Nachum ish Gamzu,
who would greet events that would disappoint or depress most of us with
"Gam zu letovah -- this too is for the best."

So actually, wishing one another a good year could be thought of
as being redundant. Everything is good, how could this year be any
different? However, not everything I was told was "for my own good"
was particularly pleasant. Therefore, the rebbe teaches, we wish that
the year not only be tovah, good, but also be mesuqah, sweet to our
perception as well.

Along the same lines, I had a thought about a phrase in Shabbos and Yom
Tov davening <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2006/01/vetaheir-libeinu.shtml>:

    Our L-rd, and the L-rd of our fathers, sanctify us bemitzvosekha
    (through Your mitzvos), and put our portion beSorasekha (in Your
    Torah), satisfy us mituvekha (from Your Goodness), and make us (or:
    our souls qua living force) biyshuasekha (in Your salvation)...

The predicate prefix has an oddity: it says bemitzvosekha, beSorasekha,
and later, beyshu'asekha. But by goodness, the prefix is "mituvekha" --
"from", not "be-" ("in" or "through") like by the others.

The reason, I believe, is because we are asking for something inherently
different. We can ask G-d to make us more holy by allowing us to do
more mitzvos, or give us the opportunity to learn more Torah, or make
us happier by saving us more often. This is "be-", we are asking for
more of a gift by asking for more of the vehicle He uses to give it to us.

Since everything G-d does is good, we can't be asking for G-d to give us
more good, and thereby make us more satisfied. There is no more good for
us to get. Rather, we are asking for more satisfaction with the goodness
He already provides. This is why the "mi-" prefix is used.

This is also in contrast to Rebbe's words (Berakhos 50a) about benching,
that a wise person says "uvtuvo chayinu -- and through His good we live",
and a boor, "umituvo chayinu -- and from His good, we live". Rebbe says
that "umituvo" is incorrect because it says that we live through some of
His Good, implying that Hashem gives meagerly. Perhaps it's different
here, when we ask for happiness, because the truth is that if we had
a full realization of even a small part of His Good would be enough to
satisfy. Like the piyut we sing at the seider. We list fifteen things
Hashem did for us when taking us out of Egypt. But had He done any one
of those 15 alone, "Dayeinu"!

R Shelomo Wolbe^zt"l would part someone's company wishing him "shetir'u
batov -- may you see the good!" Because the tense of "tir'u" is ambiguous,
this is both a berakhah and a mussar shmuess.

Taken in the future tense, "May you see", it becomes a blessing that
Hashem allow him to see all that's good in his life. In the imperative,
the same work becomes "Look", advice to the person to take the initiative
and seek out the good of every situation. To aspire to the middah
of Nachum ish Gamzu and Rabbi Aqiva of realizing the Hand of G-d in
everything, and looking to see how even the tragedies in our lives are
necessary steps to something bigger which He has in store for us.

The two together yields a profound combined meaning. Live is the product
of a partnership between myself and G-d. It is the sum of my free-willed
decisions and the hand Hashem deals me. "Shetir'u beTov" addresses both
at the same time, by praying that Hashem show the person good, and that
the person look to find it. A greeting that recognizes the fundamental
covenant by which man is redeemed.

It's a beautiful greeting, one worth adopting. Wishing others could
taste the sweetness.

Shetir'u baTov!

(With thanks to RYGB for helping me find the gemara.)

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1. Anonymous says:
   [21]? ????? ???? - September 29, 2006 at 1:25pm
   Possibly related - stolen waters are described as sweet, which
   tells us something unpleasant about the human condition. Perhaps
   what we are requesting is not only an objectively good year, but
   the ability to appreciate that goodness, similar to the way in
   which we regrettably now enjoy the prohibited.
   - Moishe Potemkin
   [22]Reply

1. [23]Aspaqlaria ? Blog Archive ? ?? ???? ???"?
   ?? ????? ???? - September 5, 2007
   [...] berakhos for a Shanah tovah umsuqah, as the Bostoner Rebbe
   put it, a year that is we not only conceptually know to be good,
   but has a sweetness we can taste and [...]

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I think a better question might be: will prozbul still work when shmitta 
is d'Orayta again?

On 9/11/2015 7:03 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> I have been asking this question to various people, and several have
> suggested that the answer is somewhere in the range of "hefker bes din"
> and "amiraso legavoah kimsiraso lahedyot".  IOW, beis din doesn't need
> to make a kinyan; its inherent power is sufficient to take possession
> of your loans as soon as you verbally relinquish them.
>

On 09/13/2015 04:01 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I think a better question might be: will prozbul still work when
> shmitta is d'Orayta again?

Why wouldn't it?  Its effectiveness does not depend on shmita being
d'rabanan.  The only difference that made was in Hillel deciding he
had the right to promote it.  Since he did promote it, it will continue
when shmita becomes de'oraisa, unless and until some future beis din
declares it unethical.  And I don't think that will happen, because
such a declaration wouldn't stop it, it would just drive it to the
disreputable batei din.  Now that everyone knows about it you can't
make people forget it; Hillel uncorked the idea and it can't be pushed
back into the bottle.


-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On 9/11/2015 4:29 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 09, 2015 at 08:23:44PM -0400, via Avodah wrote:
> : According to wiki, Re'em is mentioned nine times in the Hebrew Bible (Job
> : 39:9-10, Deuteronomy 33:17, Numbers 23:22 and 24:8; Psalms 22:21, 29:6 and
> : 92:10; and Isaiah 34:7).
>
> : R' Slifkin demonstrates that it is an aurochs...
>
> He argues that it's an auroachs. Calling any identification of this sort a
> "demonstration" is overly confident.
Agreed.

> Notice that every time re'eim is used, it's as a comparison. No one ever
> sees one -- they are symbols of pride and power. Meaning, the rishonim
> who identified the re'eim with the unicorm could well be right -- we
> can use mythical creatures as metaphors.

How would a unicorn fit with "v'karnei re'eim karnav"?  Sounds pretty 
plural to me.

Lisa

At 04:02 AM 9/13/2015, you wrote:
>On some level yes, everything that God does is for the good.  But if 
>you get hit by a car (chas v'shalom), I guarantee you that you won't 
>experience that as a good thing.
Of course it depends on the severity of your injuries.  If your 
injuries are not severe,  and you collect a hefty sum from the 
driver's insurance company,  then you may indeed view it as a good thing!

All things have to be considered in context.
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On some level yes, everything that God does is for the good.  But if you 
get hit by a car (chas v'shalom), I guarantee you that you won't 
experience that as a good thing.

On 9/11/2015 8:23 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> It is customary at this time of year to wish others "A Gutte Yahr"  (A 
> good year)  However,  aren't we supposed to believe that whatever 
> Hashem does is for the good,  so no matter what will happen in the 
> year to come,  it will be a good year. (We may not see it this way,  
> but again whatever Hashem does is good.)
>
> Thus,   I do not see any purpose in wishing others a "Good year."
>
> Any explanations and or comments will be appreciated.
>
> YL

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 05:22:08AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
:> On some level yes, everything that God does is for the good.  But
:> if you get hit by a car (chas v'shalom), I guarantee you that you
:> won't experience that as a good thing.

: Of course it depends on the severity of your injuries...

We're getting off point. I believe Lisa's reponse was similar to my
repeating the distinction between "shanah tovah" and "umsuqah", without
leading to the problem of the "wrong" word being used in "Leshanah
tovah tekhaseivu".

We could ask the same about Yeshaiah's "oseh shalom uvorei es hara" --
what ra? I thought there is no ra?

It would seem we often speak of tov vara in terms of how they're
experienced, rather than some abstract reality in which we know (or
should know) "gam zu letovah".

Even if "ra" ends up meaning "a vacuum in which the tov cannot be
experienced". (Vacuums aren't created as much as left empty, and even
that I am calling experiential rather than objectively real.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The meaning of life is to find your gift.
mi...@aishdas.org        The purpose of life
http://www.aishdas.org   is to give it away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Pablo Picasso

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 05:22:08AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
:> On some level yes, everything that God does is for the good.  But
:> if you get hit by a car (chas v'shalom), I guarantee you that you
:> won't experience that as a good thing.

: Of course it depends on the severity of your injuries...

We're getting off point. I believe Lisa's reponse was similar to my
repeating the distinction between "shanah tovah" and "umsuqah", without
leading to the problem of the "wrong" word being used in "Leshanah
tovah tekhaseivu".

We could ask the same about Yeshaiah's "oseh shalom uvorei es hara" --
what ra? I thought there is no ra?

It would seem we often speak of tov vara in terms of how they're
experienced, rather than some abstract reality in which we know (or
should know) "gam zu letovah".

Even if "ra" ends up meaning "a vacuum in which the tov cannot be
experienced". (Vacuums aren't created as much as left empty, and even
that I am calling experiential rather than objectively real.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The meaning of life is to find your gift.
mi...@aishdas.org        The purpose of life
http://www.aishdas.org   is to give it away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Pablo Picasso


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