Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 125

Wed, 16 Sep 2015

• 1. Re: Chitzonios and Tereifos (Michael Poppers)
• 2. Re: Book review: The Torah encyclopedia of the animal kingdom (RCK)
• 3. Re: Chitzonios and Tereifos (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: 13 Middos (Marty Bluke)
• 5. Re: 13 Middos (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Lisa Liel)
• 12. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Zev Sero)
• 13. Administrivia: Moderator Vacation (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: How does Prozbul work? (Micha Berger)

R'Micha replied:
> The sun is also an external tool. <
Which is why I previously differentiated between the sun _or_ a substitute
light source no brighter than it and between what I call "external tools."

> This is wh I think we need more nuance here. <
My theory is that anything we, a 6th-Day "creation", can see with the tools
provided as part of the *b'riyah* (or, again, a fair substitute) is within
our Halachic field of vision.

Best wishes for a *shanah tovah umsuqah* from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA



On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 11:52:48AM -0400, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
> : A knife is an external tool.  The inside of a lung cannot be seen by the
> : human eye without opening it.
>
> The sun is also an external tool.
>
> This is wh I think we need more nuance here.
>
> It might depend on whether a hollow inside the lung is judged as a lung
> that is defective in a way we can't see without a knife, or the hole is
> a mum that we could be able to see ourselves if the ourside of the lung
> weren't in the way.
>
> But in either case, I still csn't articulste what seems to me to be
> a obvious difference.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
> mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
> http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
> Fax: (270) 514-1507
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150913/4b710c95/attachment-0001.htm>

It's a good question, in fact, the Bayis HaGadol (also known as Biur) on
Pirkei D'Rabbi Eliezer (end of ch. 19) asks this on HaBachur.

Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Check out my book *Lashon HaKodesh: History, Holiness, & Hebrew
<http://www.amazon.com/dp/1937887367/>*
[image: Lashon HaKodesh: History, Holiness, & Hebrew (Mosaica Press) on
Amazon] <http://www.amazon.com/author/reuvenchaimklein>[image: Academia.edu]
<https://yeshivasmir.academia.edu/RebChaimHaQoton/>[image: Google Scholar]
<https://scholar.google.co.il/citations?user=WQng6v8AAAAJ&;hl=he>[image:
LinkedIN] <http://il.linkedin.com/in/rabbircklein>[image: Rabbi Reuven
Chaim Klein on TorahDownloads.com]
<http://torahdownloads.com/s-297-rabbi-reuven-chaim-klein.html>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 10:29 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> On 09/13/2015 10:15 AM, RCK via Avodah wrote:
>
>> Lisa wrote:
>>
>
> How would a unicorn fit with "v'karnei re'eim karnav"?  Sounds pretty
>>> plural to me.
>>>
>>
> Look at the Radak in Sefer HaShorashim and HaBachur's comments there.
>>
>
> http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=11650&;pgnum=227
>
> I don't understand the Bachur's comment.  Surely the Radak explicitly
> addressed his objection, so why does he still raise it?  (Unless these
> notes were not written on the Shorashim at all, and some printer decided
> to mash them together at random.)
>
> --
> Zev Sero                  KvChT
> z...@sero.name
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150915/072f5951/attachment-0001.htm>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 04:59:29PM -0400, Michael Poppers wrote:
:> This is wh I think we need more nuance here.

: My theory is that anything we, a 6th-Day "creation", can see with the tools
: provided as part of the *b'riyah* (or, again, a fair substitute) is within
: our Halachic field of vision.

You mean, like a sharp rock? <grin>

GCT!
-Micha

R' MYG wrote:
"I see it as more of a symbol of Hashem?s love for His people: ?If you sin,
even if you?re not up to doing the Teshuvah that you should be doing,
here?s a ?ticket? of sorts that I?m giving you _now_ to show my love for
you, that if you ?remind? me of it after you sin, that will demonstrate
that you see yourselves as close to me, and I?ll give you some measure of
forbearance for the sins, even in the absence of full Teshuvah.?
The best Mashal I could think of for this is a PBA placard ? you buy it and
put it in your car, and when the cop pulls you over for speeding, you show
it to him and he goes easy on you, because he sees that you?re really a
friend of the police. NOT because you demonstrated regret for speeding,
necessarily.

Does that make sense?"

Not really, Hashem is perfect and all knowing, you can't bribe him. Why
should you need to remind him of anything? Hashem knows exactly who you are
and how close you are to him.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150916/e67a8036/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 11:43:35AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: Not really, Hashem is perfect and all knowing, you can't bribe him. Why
: should you need to remind him of anything? Hashem knows exactly who you are
: and how close you are to him.

That's ust an inherent limitation in the mashal. (Any mashal where the
nimshal is G-d, is going to be limited for the same reason you give.)

Lemaaseh, He may Remember everything, but I don't. Going through the
exercises keep my own beliefs more conscious and reinforces them.
Setting up a pointless reminder to remind Him has function in that it
reminds me.

Which is how I understood RMYG's original answer: that reciting the
13 middoes is "more of a symbol of Hashem's love for His people: 'If you sin,
even if you're not up to doing the Teshuvah that you should be doing,
here's a 'ticket' of sorts that I'm giving you _now_ to show my love for
you...'"

We need to remember the closeness, to keep it real in our minds, which
then deepens our belief in it.

Which is why I then said that this in itself is a minimal teshuvah, and
not merely reciting words. IOW, if someone said the 13 Middos and didn't
even think "these are G-d's 13 Middos of lovingkindness that He gave
us", would they still be guaranteed not to leave empty-handed?

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

GCT!
-Micha

R' Zev Sero wrote:
> There's no indication that he mentioned shmita's drabanan status at all.

The simple reading of the Gemara in Gittin 36a-b which is the source of
pruzbul says that pruzbul only works when shemitta is d'rabbanan and in
fact this is how the Rambam understands the Gemara and how he paskens. The
Gemara first states that Hillel was mesaken pruzbul and then asks how could
Hillel be mesaken pruzbul and say that loans are not cancelled when the
Torah says that they are? Abaye answers shemitta nowadays is derabban. The
Gemara then asks how could the Chachamim be mesaken shemittas kesafim
medrabban (and cancel loans) and Rava answers hefker beit din hefker. The
simple reading of the Gemara is that the whole takana of pruzbul only works
when shemitta is derabbanan. Rashi and the Raavad however understand the
Gemara that Rava's answer also answers the first question of how could
Hillel be mesaken pruzbul when the Torah cancels loans based on hefker beis
din hefker and that pruzbul works even when shemmita is d'oraysa.

[Email #2]

R"n Lisa Liel asked:
> I think a better question might be: will prozbul still work when shmitta
> is d'Orayta again?
and R' Zev Sero asked why wouldn't it?

Actually this is an explicit machlokes the Rambam and the Raavad and Rashi
and Tosafos (Gittin 36a-b).

The Rambam writes in Hilchos Shemitta V'Yovel (chapter 9)
    v'ein haprozbul moeel ela b'shmitas kesafim shehee midvrei sofrim
    aval shemitta shel torah ayn haprozbul moeel bo

The Raavad there argues that prozbul will work even when shemmita is
d'oraysa based on his understanding of Rava's answer of hefker beis din
hefker (like Rashi in Gittin).

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 11:00:56PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: If I am making them my shaliach to collect my loans on my behalf, then that
: sounds like Rav Asher Weiss' explanation. Sure, beis din is patur from lo
: yigos, but it was a big chidush to me that that's enough to exempt me from
: being m'shamet a loan that I still own. (But if one wants to go with the
: Collection Agency idea, then shlichus is irrelevant - beis din would need
: to own the loan.)

The big problem is that the difference in sevaros may make a particular
pruzbul text valid or not.

For example, how does hefqer BD hefqer work today, when courts do
not have a central Sanhedrin organizing them? I am giving the loan
to three hedyotos. Which 3? The three I named? (Are we invoking Beis
Shammai's notion that one can be mafqir only to a given person or set
of people? [Ymi Pei'ah 6:1 19b]) Then how is it HBDH and not a simple
matanah?

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 03:39:14PM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: In an article reviewing this shmitta, Rav Melamed threw in monkey
: wrench that I had never heard before. In calculating the numbers of
: Jews, the true number (at least as far as shmitta goes) includes all
: those people who are Jewish through maternal descent. Therefore the
: number of Jews is much higher than we believe it to be.
: 
: In  RM's opinion, shmitta won't be d'Orayata again until the Messiah comes.

Also, the machloqes Rashi and Tosafos as to whether "kol yosheveha aleha"
is by sheivet.

I don't know what Tosafos do with the machloqes (Sanhedring 110b) about
whether the lost shevatim will ever be restored. If they hold like R'
Aqiva, this would have to refer to the descendents of those refugees from
Malkhus Yisrael who fled to Malkhus Yehudah. Or, is that in itself enough
reestablishment of the shevatim to contradict R' Aqiva? The masqanah of
the gemara appears to be Rabba bb Chana (citing R' Yochanan) refuting
R' Aqiva's position in favor of R' Eliezer -- that the missing shevatim
will be restored (quoting Yirmiyahu 3:!2). Maybe they just consider the
question closed.

The gemara assumes that yovel de'oraisa ended when the 2-1/2 shevatim were
exiled from their land be'ever hanahar. Which is a bit of a question on
Rashi. The loss of the lands there did not mean the exile of the majority
of Benei Yisrael.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

from wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prozbul>

    Thus, if one would agree that shmita does not apply when Israelites
    are dispersed,[6] Hillel, great as he was, would not have changed
    a law of the Torah in order to fit the needs of his time. He and
    his beth din would have enacted a rabbinic exception to a rabbinic
    law. As the Rambam notes in Shmita V'Yovel chapter 9, when most Jews
    again live in the Land of Israel and the observance of the sabbatical
    and jubilee years are Toraitic commandments, the prozbul will no
    longer be able to be used. According to this theory, Prozbul, like
    `eruv <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv>, is a rabbinic exception
    to a rabbinic enactment. Prozbul cannot be used to get around the
    Torah commanded shmita and yovel, just as `eruv cannot be used to get
    around the fact that Torah prohibited carrying in the public domain.

I recently saw the opposite question: There are many ways to avoid the
problem of shmitta annulling laws without resorting to prozbul. One simple
example is to make the loan end immediately after RH of this year. There
are many other options. So the question is why the need for prozbul The
only answer I saw was that the general population was not aware of the
alternatives or else they were too cumbersome


[Email #2]

> In an article reviewing this shmitta, Rav Melamed threw in monkey wrench
> that I had never heard before. In calculating the numbers of Jews, the
> true number (at least as far as shmitta goes) includes all those people
> who are Jewish through maternal descent. Therefore the number of Jews is
> much higher than we believe it to be.

I have no idea how R Melamed got his numbers. RAL seemed to hold that
once a few generations have passed that a family has no connection with
yiddishkeit then the family would no longer be halachically Jewish even
for direct maternal descendants.

i.e. if someone could prove they were a descendant of shevet ephraim
through a direct maternal link the person still would not be Jewish.

I would assume that a descendant of annusim would be Jewish since they
kept their Jewish identification through various customs

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 07:36:20PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
: On 9/16/2015 1:09 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
:> The gemara assumes that yovel de'oraisa ended when the 2-1/2 shevatim were
:> exiled from their land be'ever hanahar. Which is a bit of a question on
:> Rashi. The loss of the lands there did not mean the exile of the majority
:> of Benei Yisrael.

: How do you know?

(I assume you mean the reisha about yovel and therefore shemittah de'oraisa
ending when eiver hayardein was conquered, not my last sentence.)

Eirachin 32b

Rambam, Hil Shemitah veYovel 10:8.

GCT!
-Micha

On 9/13/2015 4:39 PM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> In an article reviewing this shmitta, Rav Melamed threw in monkey 
> wrench that I had never heard before. In calculating the numbers of 
> Jews, the true number (at least as far as shmitta goes) includes all 
> those people who are Jewish through maternal descent. Therefore the 
> number of Jews is much higher than we believe it to be.

On the contrary. The number of people who identify as "Jewish" in polls
who are actually non-halakhic "converts" or children of non-Jewish mothers
is vast, so the number of Jews is much *lower* than we believe it to be.


[Email #2]

On 9/16/2015 1:09 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> The gemara assumes that yovel de'oraisa ended when the 2-1/2 shevatim were
> exiled from their land be'ever hanahar. Which is a bit of a question on
> Rashi. The loss of the lands there did not mean the exile of the majority
> of Benei Yisrael.

How do you know?

Lisa

On 09/16/2015 08:08 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>> >In an article reviewing this shmitta, Rav Melamed threw in monkey wrench
>> >that I had never heard before. In calculating the numbers of Jews, the
>> >true number (at least as far as shmitta goes) includes all those people
>> >who are Jewish through maternal descent. Therefore the number of Jews is
>> >much higher than we believe it to be.

> I have no idea how R Melamed got his numbers. RAL seemed to hold that
> once a few generations have passed that a family has no connection with
> yiddishkeit then the family would no longer be halachically Jewish even
> for direct maternal descendants.
>
> i.e. if someone could prove they were a descendant of shevet ephraim
> through a direct maternal link the person still would not be Jewish.

That is an extreme daat yachid, with a very tenuous basis.  Nobody
else agrees with him, so there's no reason to expect R Melamed to take
this view into account, or even to be aware of it.


-- 
Zev Sero               GChT
z...@sero.name

While Areivim has a team of mods, Avodah is still entirely dependent
on me. Which makes me feel an obligation to forewarn y'all before I go
on vacation.

Tomorrow I will be leaving for 3 weeks in Yerushalayim ih"q. (Barring
messianic intervention, to leave again the day after chutznik Simchas
Torah.) I do not know what my internet access will be like, but it's
quite likely moderation approval delays will increase.

Please be patient.

Yerushalayim crew: Avodah/Areivim Simchas Beis haSho'eivah anyone?
Discussion on Areivim...)

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 03:08:53PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: I have no idea how R Melamed got his numbers. RAL seemed to hold that
: once a few generations have passed that a family has no connection with
: yiddishkeit then the family would no longer be halachically Jewish even
: for direct maternal descendants.

This was his famous teshuvah on the Brother Daniel case. That there
are limits even on maternal descent.

I found a nice summary by R/Dr Judah Goldberg
<http://www.etzion.org.il/en/shiur-15-jewish-peoplehood-8-leaving-judai
sm>

: i.e. if someone could prove they were a descendant of shevet ephraim
: through a direct maternal link the person still would not be Jewish.

From there, RAL's meqoros in shas:

    In Yevamot 16b, Rav Assi states that if a gentile betroths a Jewess,
    we cannot dismiss the validity of the marriage, for perhaps he
    descends from one of the ten lost tribes. When Shmuel heard this
    ruling, however, he responded, "They did not move from that place
    until they made [the descendants of the lost tribes] into absolute
    gentiles, as it says, 'They have betrayed God, for they have begotten
    alien children' (Hoshea 5:7)" (17a). Similarly, Chullin 6a tells how
    Rav Ami and Rav Assi discovered that the Samaritan community, which
    had long been suspected of engaging in pagan worship, was no longer
    observing Jewish law at all. In response, They did not move from
    that place until they made [the Samaritans] into absolute gentiles.

He cites three shitos from rishonim, although the Rambam's pesaq is as
explacated by R' Chaim Brisker.

1- Rashba: The Samaritan's conversion was annulled, not that one can
   stop being a Jew. R Pinchas Horowitz (Sefer Ha-mikna) applies parallel
   reasoning to the 10 shevatim -- they didn't stop being Jews, they
   are just an ignorable mi'ut that only a derabbanan kept us from ignoring.
   And that was repealed.

2- A mi'ut hold that the geir who stops believing ceases being a geir,
   but we have to worry about what's really going on in his head, so
   lechumerah we have to acknowledge his marriage.

3- The Rambam as explained by RCB (contrasting Ishus 4:15 with peirush on
   Niddah 7:4, where he says a dead Samaritan is not metamei tum'as ohel)
   that someone who gives up his self-identity as a Jew and acts on it
   is

But in either case, the hypothetical Ephramite is a machloqes amoraim.
Unless you agree with the author of the Hafla'ah that it's just an issue
of mi'ut, and therefore the one who could prove he is in the mi'ut would
be Jewish.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org        he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org   Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507      a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)