Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 161

Tue, 15 Dec 2015

• 1. Re: halacha and history (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: halacha and history (Lisa Liel)
• 3. chashmanoim (Eli Turkel)
• 4. al hanisim (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: al hanisim (Micha Berger)
• 6. high priests (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: high priests (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: high priests (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: high priests (Lisa Liel)
• 10. [Aspaqlaria] Kayli (Micha Berger)
• 11. halacha and history (Michael Poppers)
• 12. Re: halacha and history (Micha Berger)

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 07:00:10PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: 1)   *Question:*   Who was the Kohen Gadol at the time of
: Chanukah--Mattisyahu--or his father Yochanan

: *Answer:*  The Sefer *Shalal Rav* (p. 147-148) presents a Machlokes
: Rishonim on this very point.
: 
: Obviously neither were kohen gadol at the time of chanukah. Josephus
: describes the various successions of the kohen gadol  eg alcimus etc...

There was no real kohein gadol. Jason (Yeishua) bought the position for 60
kikar, with another 80 kikar in pledges. He couldn't pay up the pledges,
so Menileus (Choniov) was able to buy it out from under him. Menilaus
also over-promised, and Antiochus ended up appointing Jason's brother,
Lizimakeus (Jewish name unknown). Limzimakeus tried to steal the money
from qodshim, but he was caught at it and killed by Y-mim. So Menilaus
retained the title of high priest.

Meanwhile, runmor reaches Y-m that Antiochus died in battle in Egypt.
It wasn't true, but on that rumor, Jason rounded up an army to depose
Menileus. Malshinim told Achashveirosh that the rumor of his death
was celebrated.ASo, he attacked Y-m. The Misyavnim turned Fifth Column,
and opened the gates for him.

And so his suppression begins.

But none of these people were kohanim gedolim, doing the role al pi
halakhah. Jason -- as his name change indicates -- was himself from
among the Misyavnim.

:                                                                 Some claim
: that he is the Yochanan who lived 80 years and became a sadducee which
: would make the story even more amazing,

:                                         In fact it is not clear that the
: Maccabees came from the "right" branch of priests to be kohen gadol

Saying that the ban on mishmar Yehoyariv was still in force would
rule out both Yochanan and Matisyahu, unless they usurped the title.
The Hasmoneans did, but our mesorah is that the Maccabees merited
the miraculous assistance they received.

The bigger problem would be that is Taanis 27a-b means the family did
not return from Bavel, how are we discussing them being in Modiin?

Taanis 29a lists a number of things in common between churban bayis
rishon and churban bayis sheini: it was erev 9beAv, Sunday, the
year after shemitah, mishmar Yehoyariv, and the leviim were singing,
standing on the duchan. Notice this implies Yehoyariv was back in
EY.

Eirachin 12b says that if Yehoyariv would return, they would be folded
into Yedayah.

Which I think would imply that Yochanan and Matisyahu were considered
part of Yedayah, and only their cousins who remained in Bavel would
not be pulled out of galus for the appointment.

Otherwise, tzarikh iyun. But it has nothing to do with which were more
plausibly KG -- the problem is equal either way.


BTW, R Dovid Cohen (of Flatbush) linked the machloqes about how to parse
Matisyahu ben Yochanan Kohein Gadol, whether it's
    Matisyanu ben Yochanan-Kohein-Gadol (Yochanan was the KG)
or
    Matisyanu-ben-Yochanan Kohein Gadol (Matisyahu was the KG)
to the machloqes about how eidim sign a shetar. Should it be
    ne'um Re'uvein ben Yisrael eid
or
    ne'um Re'uvein eid ben Yisrael

Since we hold the former, we consider the "ben" to be more binding
than titles. So, if the author of Al haNisim holds like we do, it's
Matisyahu who is being called the KG.

From http://torahmusings.com/2006/01/yohanan-high-priest
by RGS:

   ...
   There are three positions on the identity of the famous Yohanan the
   High Priest:

   1. The Rambam (Introduction to Commentary to the Mishnah) and Roke'ah
   (Hilkhos Hanukah) are of the view that he was the son of Matisyahu,
   of Hanukah fame, evidently named after his own grandfather.

   2. Sefer Yuhasin (1:16) and Seder Ha-Doros (2:Yohanan Kohen Gadol)
   state that Yohanan the High Priest was Matisyahu's father and is the
   one mentioned in the "Al Ha-Nissim."

   3. Later scholars, including Doros Ha-Rishonim (part 2 p. 442) and
   Toledos Tanna'im Ve-Amora'im (vol. 2 p. 688), are of the view that
   Yohanan the High Priest was the grandson of Matisyahu and the son
   of Shimon.
   ...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Eliot

On 12/14/2015 8:30 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> There was no real kohein gadol. Jason (Yeishua) bought the position for 60
> kikar, with another 80 kikar in pledges. He couldn't pay up the pledges,
> so Menileus (Choniov)

Choniov?

Lisa

<<There are three positions on the identity of the famous Yohanan the
   High Priest:

   1. The Rambam (Introduction to Commentary to the Mishnah) and Roke'ah
   (Hilkhos Hanukah) are of the view that he was the son of Matisyahu,
   of Hanukah fame, evidently named after his own grandfather.

   2. Sefer Yuhasin (1:16) and Seder Ha-Doros (2:Yohanan Kohen Gadol)
   state that Yohanan the High Priest was Matisyahu's father and is the
   one mentioned in the "Al Ha-Nissim."

   3. Later scholars, including Doros Ha-Rishonim (part 2 p. 442) and
   Toledos Tanna'im Ve-Amora'im (vol. 2 p. 688), are of the view that
   Yohanan the High Priest was the grandson of Matisyahu and the son
   of Shimon. >>

I am completely confused by the first option: The two sons of Mattiyahu
that became Kohen gadol
were Yonatan and later Shimon - no Yochanan who died in battle

For the second possibility we are left with the result that Mattityahu's
father became a Sadduccee at the end of his life. There also exists a
midrash that Mattiyahu's father encouraged him in the revolt against the
Greeks,

For the third possibility the son of Shimon (John Hyrcanus) indeed
succeeded his father and was Kohen gadol (for 31 years) . Note that he
spent most of his years fighting wars far from Jerusalem. One of his
accomplishments was conquering Samaria and destrying the Samaritan temple.
At his death his wife became secular leader while his son became Kohen
Gadol. (however the son threw his mother into jail and starved her death
and took over both roles)

Again Mattiyahu lived in Modiin and not Jerusalem. Moddin seems to have
been the home for the whole family.
I agree with Micha that the "high priest" in the years before the Macabbe
revolt were not legimate (some not even being priests). This would imply
that there was no halachic kohen gadol for many years.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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As an aside on the identity of the kohen gadol in al hanisim. From what I
have seen the first place where the words of al hanisim occur are is siddur
Rav Amram Gaon and no one knows the true origin of the prayer

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 10:08:25PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: As an aside on the identity of the kohen gadol in al hanisim. From what I
: have seen the first place where the words of al hanisim occur are is siddur
: Rav Amram Gaon and no one knows the true origin of the prayer

Yeah, but... We do know it was written at the latest by a gaon and
withstood well over a millennium of "peer review" by chakhamim across
the globe. Anything /that/ enshrined in the siddur has got to be
reliable.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

from wikipedia

The high priests belonged to the Jewish priestly
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen> families that trace their paternal
line back to Aaron <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron>, the first high
priest of Israel and elder brother of Moses
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses>, through Zadok
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadok>, a leading priest at the time of David
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David> andSolomon
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon>. This tradition came to an end in
the 2nd century BCE during the rule of the Hasmoneans
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty>.[2]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Priest_of_Israel#cite_note-2>

The Jewish Encylopedia
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7689-high-priest
towards the end has a list of all the high priests. In the second Temple
era it is mainly based on Josephus. Note that the only Yochanan in the
entire list is John Hyrcanus (son of Simin Maccabbee)

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 12/15/2015 3:01 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> from wikipedia
...
> The Jewish Encylopedia 
> http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7689-high-priest
> towards the end has a list of all the high priests. In the second 
> Temple era it is mainly based on Josephus. Note that the only Yochanan 
> in the entire list is John Hyrcanus (son of Simin Maccabbee)

Like I said before, Onias = Chonyo = Choni = Yochanan = John. These are
all the same name.

When the gemara talks about the temple in Alexandria the priest is
idetified as Chonyo. So the gemara seems to distinguish between Chonyo
and Yochanan as does Josephus.

No.  Sometimes the Gemara uses the name Chonyo, and sometimes Yochanan.  
Just like Tanach sometimes calls the second to last king of Judah 
Yechoniahu and sometimes Yehoyachin.

Lisa

This evening's blog post. (Minus Hebrew and Aramaic.)

-micha

    There isn't much I can say about the life of Aliza Kayla bas Mikhah
    Shemuel. She was born the first day chol hamo'ed Sukkos. I don't think
    she wanted to... Kayli spent the first days of Sukkos getting herself
    as far from out of there as possible, and she came into the world feet
    first. Eleven weeks later, a couple of days after Chanukah she left.

    Two thoughts though.

    Kayli's brief life brought people together. We moved to Passaic
    shortly before her birth thinking that our enlarged family would
    need the extra space. People invited us for Shabbasos those first
    weeks to make the new people feel at home in the neighborhood. Then
    she was born, and we relieved weeks worth of food from neighbors who
    took care of us while my wife recovered. We were barely done with
    all the leftovers from those meals when the meals started arriving
    during shiv'ah!

    More directly, one thing struck me about Kayli's life. The last time
    I held her, I marveled at her newly acquired talent to smile back
    at me when I smiled at her. Social smiling develops somewhere around
    7 weeks give or take, but I was never the most observant parent.

    It is now 4 Teves, Kayli's 24th yahrzeit. I cannot ask people to
    remember her example and give tzedaqah like she did, learn like she
    did, be a generous friend like she was. But Kayli did teach me the
    preciousness of a simple smile.

    So please do me a favor and make someone smile today! Complement
    them, give an unexpected "thank you", tell a joke. Just do anything
    to bring people together, more happiness into the world, and a smile
    to someone's lips.

      When Rav Dimi came [to the Golan from Naharda'ah, Bavel],
      he said: The Congregation of Israel said before the Holy One,
      "Master of the universe, twinkle to me with Your `Eyes', which are
      sweeter than wine, and show me Your `Teeth' which are sweeter
      than milk." [The twinkling eye and the visible teeth being
      a description of a heartfelt smile.]
      
      This is a proof for Rabbi Yochanan. As Rabbi Yochanan said:
      Whitening a friend's teeth [in a smile] is greater than giving
      him milk to drink. As it says, "uleven shinayim meichalav - and
      teeth whitened with milk." (Bereishis 49:12) Do not read "uleven
      shinayim", rather "libun shinayim - the whites of teeth"
      ["meichalav" - more than milk].
                                          - Qiddushin 111b

    And on the the verse, the Yalqut Shim'oni quotes Rabbi Yochanan as
    above, but he continues:

      This world is not like the world to come. In this world there is
      grief in harvesting and treading [the grain]. But in the world
      to come, each one goes out to the field and brings a cluster of
      grapes back by carriage or boat, puts it in the corner [and has
      enough from it like a banyan] that is large and its wood is enough
      to burn under the stew [pot]. "Vedam einav tishtesh chamer --
      The blood of the grapes you shall drink as foaming wine" (Devarim
      32:14) - you will not have any cluster of grapes that would not
      produce 60 garab [roughly 7 gallons] of wine, as it says "chamer --
      foaming". Do not read "chamer" but "chomer -- substance."

    May we all great each other with a twinkle in the eye and a smile
    on the lips, so that we may live to see the day the worlds unite,
    and there is bounty without effort in this world as well.

In Avodah V33n160, RnLL wrote:
> The name Onias, by which several of the High Priests of the time were
known, is the Greek transliteration of Chonyo, which is a short form of
Yochanan.  Like Rick and Richard.  Jason, the Hellenist High Priest, was
the successor to his brother Onias III, who is probably the Yochanan Kohen
Gadol who was the father of Mattitiyahu. <
and
> Mattitiyahu was the son of the Kohen Gadol.  He could have been the Kohen
Gadol himself. <
I know this thought isn't as simple as taking "ben" literally, but couldn't
Matisyahu have been described as a "ben Yochanan" in the sense of being a
worthy successor as leader to a Yochanan Kohen Gadol (if not also a
descendant, a connotation of "ben", yet not a son)?
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On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 02:42:55PM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
: I know this thought isn't as simple as taking "ben" literally, but couldn't
: Matisyahu have been described as a "ben Yochanan" in the sense of being a
: worthy successor as leader to a Yochanan Kohen Gadol (if not also a
: descendant, a connotation of "ben", yet not a son)?

Well, *the* YKG, who becomes the poster child for not trusting oneself
until the day of death, might not be the best complement.

Also, he became a tzeduqi before passing the baton. Which means it has
to be someone who lived during or after after the Tzadoq who was the
student of Antignos ish Socho. (A 2nd Tzadoq in the same conversation.)
It doesn't leave us much room to place him well before Matisyahu.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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