Volume 34: Number 48
Tue, 03 May 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Mon, 02 May 2016 20:24:42 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Understanding an Unfriendly Minhag: Not Eating
In some cases it is obvious. We had relatives come over during this
chag. Except for water and potato chips that I bought for them, they
didn't touch any of our food. Later, we went to their place and ate
their food. I know perfectly well that they are more machmir, or at
least more particular in the hekshers that they use than we are (putting
aside the fact that we aren't in the "don't eat out" mindset).
Ben
On 5/2/2016 4:02 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> And how, pray tell, is one to determine how "the kashrus
> standards of the would-be host are at least as high as those of the
> would-be guest"?
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 14:03:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kitniyot
On 05/02/2016 01:03 PM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> The contradiction is exactly why some rabbis oppose the
> custom/practice of "only buying chameitz that was ground after
> Pesach". You can't tell someone "do X" and then the community says "X
> isn't good enough".
1. You can't tell people to buy something they don't want, no matter how
silly you think their reason.
2. As far as I'm concerned the "baked after Pesach" stickers are merely
an indication that the product is fresh.
--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Mon, 02 May 2016 21:21:50 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kitniyot
From: Eli Turkel via Areivim <arei...@lists.aishdas.org>
> The following is probably mostly for Israel MO and based on observations
> and not statistics
> 1) A number of RZ rabbis still look for chumrot on kitniyot. I already
> mentioned kashering pots used with kitniyot and I just saw an article by
> a respected RY not allowing any kitniyot at all this coming shabbat
> which is not Pesach in Israel
RET sent me the article on the subject. The author forbid cooking
kitniyot and dried fruit (he doesn't actually address eating something
like store bought chummous although some of the reasons he gives (see
below) may apply).
The author gave three reasons for forbidding cooking kitniyot on Erev
Shabbat:
1) Since the minhag of not eating kitniyot is rooted in the psak of the
rishonim, we don't say "ho'il" (since a sefardi may drop in, you can
cook for yourself).
2) Since these products are forbidden, they're muktza
3) Handling them may bring you to eat them.
Regarding one: Like I quoted, there are poskim who do allow cooking
because of ho'il. But I found reasons 2 and 3 harder to understand.
Re #2: Shmirat Shabbat K'hilchata rules that treif meat isn't muktza on
Shabbat because you can give it to goy. At first I thought that was only
in a case where you are likely to give it to a goy, but he also rules
that challa tahora is not muktza (when tahara is practiced). So what is
the difference in this case?
Re #3: Really? Is it assur to hande food, period, on a fast day?
On 5/2/2016 8:03 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> 1. You can't tell people to buy something they don't want, no matter how
> silly you think their reason.
Of course you can't. However, community leaders can decide what message
to transmit. I heard Rav Amar state in the strongest terms that there is
no benefit to buying chameitz products from a non-Jew (instead of from a
Jew who sold his chameitz). He also discouraged looking for the "baked
after Pesach" label.
Ben
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 14:05:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] RMF Mattir Neder Gebrochts - stories from Poskim
On 05/02/2016 12:35 PM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
>
> Suggesting Gebrochts which as we have documented has absolutely no Halachic foundation
The AR's teshuvah is not a halachic foundation?!
--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 14:21:03 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Understanding an Unfriendly Minhag: Not Eating
On 05/02/2016 02:24 PM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> On 5/2/2016 4:02 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>> And how, pray tell, is one to determine how "the kashrus
>> standards of the would-be host are at least as high as those of the
>> would-be guest"?
> In some cases it is obvious. We had relatives come over during this
> chag. Except for water and potato chips that I bought for them, they
> didn't touch any of our food. Later, we went to their place and ate
> their food. I know perfectly well that they are more machmir, or at
> least more particular in the hekshers that they use than we are
> (putting aside the fact that we aren't in the "don't eat out"
> mindset).
1. There's a lot more to standards, especially on Pesach, than which
hechsherim one trusts. You might trust more hechsherim than your
relatives do, but not use some product from *any* hechsher that they
do use, or have some practise at home that they don't.
2. If you are indeed sure that you are not more machmir than them,
then the custom of not mixing would not apply in that specific case.
The minhag is subject to the guest's discretion, not the host's;
all it demands of the hosts is not to take offence.
--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Isaac Balbin
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 04:58:43 +1000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] RMF Mattir Neder Gebrochts - stories from Poskim
R'MG Rabi has incorrectly assumed that I heard or similar, the words I
QUOTED from Mori VRabbi Rav Hershel Schachter. As a rule when I write
that it is a quote, it is a quote. I am an academic. In fact, it was an
email directly to me verbatim, which I received after Pesach from Mori
VRabbi. Again, it is wrong to make suppositions. I did not provide any
name in my question to him as that is entirely irrelevant.
Regarding your substantive question for the exact sources etc I will
ask, however, he is a very busy person effectively also the lone Senior
Posek for OU (has Rav Belsky a'h been replaced?) and RIETS as well as
his daily shiurim at RIETS and being Rosh Yeshiva and Kollel etc and
you will appreciate that his answer to the query may not be immediate.
Dr Isaac Balbin
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:07:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] RMF Mattir Neder Gebrochts - stories from Poskim
On 05/02/2016 03:22 PM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
> On May 3, 2016 4:05 AM, "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name <mailto:z...@sero.name>> wrote:
>> On 05/02/2016 12:35 PM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
>>> Suggesting Gebrochts which as we have documented has absolutely no Halachic foundation
>> The AR's teshuvah is not a halachic foundation?!
> Correct, it's predicated upon factually incorrect information
However on being challenged he refused to back this claim up.
--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: H Lampel
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 17:41:13 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Ramchal: Hashem not bound by logic? (Was: Re: Rav
Wed, 27 Apr 2016 From: Micha Berger
> The Ramchal says that logic is a nivra, and therefore Hashem can
> indeed create round squares and other self-contrdictory things.
I assume the reference is to Kelach Pischei Chohma 30. Can you please
indicate (I've sent an attachment of the sefer that Avodah cannot see
but R. Micha can, and the passage of which he refers he can highlight)
where Ramchal says Hashem is not bound by logic? I've been told that in
fact it implies the opposite. Zvi Lampel (To whom kabbalistic ideas are
beyond)
[The attached PDF was identical to http://www.hebrewbooks.org/51283
-micha]
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Arie Folger
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 00:43:39 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Parlez Vous Old French?
RAM mentioned that:
> last week I saw Rashi at the very end of Shemos 12:11. After explaining
> the verb p-s-ch to mean skipping and jumping, he writes (as translated and
> explained by Rabbi Yisrael Isser Tzvi Herczeg, in ArtScroll's Rashi on
> Shemos): "And also [the Old French term for Passover,] *Pasche*, is an
> expression of stepping."
... and asked:
> How do the French refer to Pesach in their language, now and/or 900
> years ago? And is that word more of a translation, or more of a
transliteration?
As you yourself wrote earlier in that post, the French call the holiday
paques (with an accent circonflexe on the a, but that renders badly on
Avodah). It is derived from the Latin, like the Spanish pascua, too.
I think that etymologies don't always need to be causative; they can also
be folk etymologies or pseudoetymologies. Rashi, or whoever added that
gloss, found a great vort on French, which allowed him to better convey the
meaning of the verb lifsoach to a French speaking audience. It is a stroke
of genius that serves its purpose well.
Kol tuv,
--
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://rabbifolger.net/
* Koscheres Geld (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/15/koscheres-geld-podcast/>
* Kennt die Existenz nur den Chaos? G?ttliches Vorsehen im J?dischen
Gedankengut (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/
2016/02/14/kennt-die-existenz-nur-den-chaos-gttliches-vorsehen-im-judischen
-gedankengut-podcast/>
* Halacha zum Wochenabschnitt: Baruch Hu uWaruch Schemo
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/11/halacha-zum-wochenabs
chnitt-baruch-hu-uwaruch-schemo/>
* Is there Order to the World? Providence in Jewish Thought
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/09/is-there-order-to
-the-world-providence-in-jewish-thought/>
* What is Modern Orthodoxy (from a radio segment)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/08/what-is-modern-orthodoxy-fro
m-a-radio-segment/>
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/01/28/wir-missionieren-nicht-aber-warum-
nicht/>
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Message: 10
From: via Avodah
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 01:27:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Understanding an Unfriendly Minhag: Not Eating
From: "Prof. Levine via Avodah" <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] Understanding an Unfriendly Minhag: Not Eating Out
on Pesach
>....Lest anyone think that I actively endorse
>this practice of not eating out on Pesach, let me say this: Rabbi Reiss'
>article brought many sources to show that this practice is a legitimate
>minhag, not to be disparaged; but I did not see any suggestion of why
>someone would want to act this way, or any explanation of how this
practice
>got started. This is especially so in situations where the kashrus
>standards of the would-be host are at least as high as those of the
>would-be guest. ... [--RAM]
And how, pray tell, is one to determine how "the kashrus
standards of the would-be host are at least as high as those of the
would-be guest"?
Is one to make an inspection of the host's kitchen and review all of
the products he uses? If so, is this not insulting to the host?
YL
>>>>>>
You don't inspect the host's kitchen because you don't eat in his house!
That's the point!
Chassidim and others have this minhag of "not mishing" on Pesach --" not
mixing" our meals with other families. This custom of not eating at other
people's houses on Pesach has its source in this, precisely: the desire
not to insult anyone, not to embarrass anyone and not to hurt anyone's
feelings on this of all holidays, the one holiday when we are all more careful
than usual about what we will and will not eat.
The "unfriendly" chassidishe minhag has a very friendly corollary, at least
in chutz la'aretz where we have two days of yom tov: On the last day of
Pesach we /davka/ go out to eat or invite others to our homes and make a
point of "mishing." If you don't have anyone over for a meal at least you go
out visiting other people's homes in the afternoon, and make a point of
eating something there. It's sort of like a sukka hop, you try to visit a few
different homes and also host a few different people in your home. At
least this was the minhag in my family growing up and among the people I knew
in my youth.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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Message: 11
From: via Avodah
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 02:35:38 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rav Sharki on university students
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
>>Two bundles of goods
>>may exist without one being fully better or worse than another.
>>So, for example, excising evil would also excise free will. Would God
>>really want that? [--RDR]
Well yeah, that's a frequently given piece of theodicy. A world without
Nazis is a world of robots, not people. There would be no moral agents
for good to happen to. And thus no real good in the universe at all.
But it only explains the evil people do. Not congenital birth defects
and other such natural evils.
Micha Berger
mi...@aishdas.org
>>>>>
I think these are two different categories -- "evil" and "suffering."
Properly speaking "evil" only refers to something that has a moral
dimension. The question of "Why does G-d allow evil?" has an obvious answer --
to allow scope for bechira, for free will. That doesn't fully answer the
question, of course. We see many cases where He thwarts the nefarious plots
of our enemies, which leaves us with aching questions in those cases when
He seemingly stands by and does /not/ thwart their plots -- the Holocaust
being the most wrenching example. There are a lot of answers but perhaps
none that are fully satisfying to us. Ultimately we just have to accept that
we are limited creatures and can never fully fathom His mind.
The second category, what you call "natural evils," really should not be
called evil at all (unless you want to impute evil motives to the Borei
c'v!). Rather, here the question is "Why is there suffering in the world?"
This is a different question from the question of why does He allow evil
people to commit evil deeds. Again there are many different answers, some of
which apply to different situations. Atonement for sin and purification of
the soul are just two reasons but there are many others we can think of, as
well as Divine reasons we can't think of.
"Evil" and "suffering" can overlap, as when evil people cause other people
to suffer, but they are still two different categories.
BTW the idea that a benevolent G-d "couldn't" or "wouldn't" do this or that
is an arrogant and ignorant idea, the product of puny human minds. And
compared to our Creator, even the most brilliant human mind is puny.
Today my Creator gave me a toothache and a painful flare-up of arthritis.
But He also gave me fresh air to breathe, bright red flowers in my garden,
a beautiful blue sky, food, water, shelter and clothing, a dentist, Advil,
and also wine, coffee and chocolate. I did not want to question whether I
really deserved the chocolate, the coffee and the flowers so I refrained
from asking whether I deserved the toothache and the arthritis, although I
did ask Him to take them away.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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Message: 12
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 07:10:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Understanding an Unfriendly Minhag: Not Eating
I wrote:
> This is especially so in situations where the kashrus standards of the
> would-be host are at least as high as those of the would-be guest.
R' Yitzchok Levine asked:
> And how, pray tell, is one to determine how "the kashrus standards of
> the would-be host are at least as high as those of the would-be guest"?
>
> Is one to make an inspection of the host's kitchen and review all of
> the products he uses? If so, is this not insulting to the host?
#1) In the article cited, much was made of an incident when Rava went to
visit Rav Nachman, who was Rava's rebbe, and was thus presumably at least
as strict as Rava. (See the article for more information, and for various
ways of understanding that gemara.)
#2) I, personally, am not very knowledgeable about the ins-and-outs of this
practice, such as who follows it, or to what extent they follow it. That's
whay I can't answer your question by pointing to people who won't even eat
in their parents' homes; I have no idea whether or not this practice really
goes that far. HOWEVER, I do presume that the author of the article is
familiar with these things, and near the beginning of the article, he
writes:
> perhaps the most intriguing of Pesach stringencies is the widespread
> minhag not to eat anyone else's food during the Pesach holiday, even
> if the other person keeps their chumros.
It seems from this that Rabbi Reiss *is* aware of people who avoid eating
other food, even when they do know that their standards have not been
otherwise lessened. There can be many ways of knowing this, without
"make[ing] an inspection of the host's kitchen and review[ing] all of the
products he uses ... insulting to the host", such as when they are close
family members, or friends, and/or the host actually invites the guest to
examine his products and practices.
Akiva Miller
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