Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 53

Thu, 12 May 2016

• 1. Re: buffalo (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: [Areivim] Rav Tal on the state of Israel (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: buffalo (Ari Zivotofsky)
• 4. which is more problematic (saul newman)
• 5. Re: buffalo (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: which is more problematic (Lisa Liel)
• 7. Re: buffalo (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: Ramchal: Hashem not bound by logic? (Was: Re:, Rav Sharki on university ) (H Lampel)
• 9. Re: Ramchal: Hashem not bound by logic? (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: buffalo (Akiva Miller)
• 11. Re: buffalo (Micha Berger)
• 12. Hallel on Yom Haazmaut (Eli Turkel)
• 13. Re: Hallel on Yom Haazmaut (Zev Sero)
• 14. Keil Maaleh (Rich, Joel)

On 05/10/2016 03:20 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> YD 28:4 discusses a buffalo. What animal are the mechaber and Rama
> talking about (American Bison wasn't discovered yet)

They are  discussing the buffalo (Bubalus bubalis), obviously, not the
bison (Bison bison).  Buffalo have been known in Europe and Asia for
thousands of years, and have nothing to do with bison.

Americans may be in the sloppy habit of calling bison "buffalo", but
since neither the Mechaber nor the Rama were American this is irrelevant.
Americans also have a fish they call "buffalo", but that's equally
irrelevant.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 08:10:45PM +0300, R Eli Turkel wrote on Areivim:
> In these days of the yahrzeit of RAL there are many articles about
> him. One article says that RAL objected strongly to the above
> statements. He questions whether any rabbi has the "email address"
> of hashem and knows what is helping or hindering the coming of Moshiach.

His rebbe and FIL held a similar opinion. Which is why RYBS suggested
to those talmidim who were going to say the Tefillah leShalom haMedinah
that they might be able to get adding "shetehei" without arguments from
the congregation May our Father who is in heaven bless Israel that it
become the beginning of the flowering of our redemption, rather than
asserting as a given that Israel is that beginning.

R SY Alkalai and R ZH Kalisher, the first RZ (or religious proto-Zionist)

voices, certainly did speak in terms of ge'ulah and qibbutz golios in the
eschatological sense. However, R' Yitzcvhaq Reines, Mizrachi's founder,
as well as R' Shmuel Mohilever were also non-messianic in their Zionism,
and yet their Zionism was religious, not in addition to their religion.
We've discussed in the past the fact that not all RZism is Messianic
Zionism, and in fact amongst RZ gedolim, this opinion might not even
have the majority. Depending, of course, on the fruitless exercise of
defining who is a gadol.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 17th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              state of harmony?

Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> YD 28:4 discusses a buffalo. What animal are the mechaber and Rama 
> talking about (American Bison wasn't discovered yet)

they are likely referring to water buffalo, Bubalus bubalis, native to 
India.

They did not initiate the discussion - The Be'ar Hagola tracks the 
source of that halacha to the Agur (Rabbi Yaakov Landau, 15th century) 
who was quoting Rabbi Yishaya Ha'achron of 13th century Trani, Italy. In 
contemporary Italian the word buffalo is still used to refer to water 
buffalo, an animal that is raised domestically as cattle in parts of 
Italy. It is from the milk of water buffalo that mozzarella cheese was 
originally made near Naples, Italy, and in southern Italy it is still 
used to make "authentic" mozzarella cheese. This would lead one to 
suspect that Rabbi Yishaya Ha'achron, and hence also the Shulchan Aruch, 
were referring to water buffalo, and they had no doubt that it is a 
kosher behamah (domesticated animal)

see here for detals:
http://www.kashrut.com/articles/buffalo/

i wonder if one can consider [for the communities that do not sanction
these two days]  which of Yom Hashoah and Yom Haatzmaut  would be more
objectionable,  from both a halachic and hashkafic perspective.

ie  from the halachic point of view  is it a bigger problem  having a
memorial day in Nissan; or a simcha day in  Iyar.                   and
from a hashkafic view which is more problematic.  the latter comes onto
violation of 3 Oaths, idea of a 'secular' state in holy land etc .  the
former only that somehow holocaust is a prelude to a State, and that those
who died resisting were somehow more
valiant....
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On 05/10/2016 04:17 PM, Ari Zivotofsky via Avodah wrote:
> they are likely referring to water buffalo, Bubalus bubalis, native to
> India.

Not "likely".   There's not even a hava amina otherwise.


> In contemporary Italian the word buffalo is still used to refer to water
> buffalo

Not just Italian but in pretty much every language, including English.

> This would lead one to
> suspect that Rabbi Yishaya Ha'achron, and hence also the Shulchan Aruch,
> were referring to water buffalo, and they had no doubt that it is a
> kosher behamah (domesticated animal)

Again, this is not a suspicion, it's a complete certainty, and I'm
astonished that it even occurs to anyone to question it.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On 5/10/2016 11:38 PM, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> i wonder if one can consider [for the communities that do not sanction 
> these two days]  which of Yom Hashoah and Yom Haatzmaut  would be more 
> objectionable,  from both a halachic and hashkafic perspective.

Yom HaShoah is almost certainly more problematic.  When the government 
of Israel asked the rabbis to make a Holocaust remembrance day, they 
were told that Tisha B'Av and Asara B'Tevet (Yom kiddush klal) covered 
it, and refused to create a separate day.  The Knesset created Yom 
HaShoah themselves.

It's caught on almost universally, but anyone who doesn't think the 
Knesset ought to be creating quasi-religious observances is likely to 
have a problem with it.  Personally, I'm one of them, and while I won't 
walk down the sidewalk whistling on Yom HaShoah, I don't otherwise pay 
any attention to the day at all.

Lisa

> they are likely referring to water buffalo, *Bubalus bubalis*, native to
> India.
...

The question is then the halachic status of the American Bison - does it
require kisui hadam and can one breed an american bison with cattle
(beefalo)

-- 
Eli Turkel

Mon, 9 May 2016 13:37:04 -0400 Micha Berger wrote:
> Zvi Lampel wrote:
> I assume the reference is to Kelach Pischei Chohma 30...

>: where Ramchal says Hashem is not bound by logic? I've been told that in
>: fact it implies the opposite

R. Micha responded:
> Then why would you think that was the reference?

My answer: Because you wrote so in reply to me previously:
> Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:33:15 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: IS THE WORLD GOOD?
...
>> ZL:  can you direct me to where the Ramchal, too, says this?)
>
> He doesn't say this WRT to the nature of halakhah in particular. I
> was quoting his position on logic and theology in general. See
> <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/07/hashem-and-logic.shtml>, where I
> discuss what seems to me to be a machloqes between the Moreh 3:15 and
> Pischei Chokhmah 30.

And I therefore assumed that when you repeated this recently without
citing the source, you still had the same source in mind.

Zvi Lampel

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 01:20:03AM -0400, H Lampel wrote:
: > He doesn't say this WRT to the nature of halakhah in particular. I
: > was quoting his position on logic and theology in general. See
: > <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/07/hashem-and-logic.shtml>, where I
: > discuss what seems to me to be a machloqes between the Moreh 3:15 and
: > Pischei Chokhmah 30.

: And I therefore assumed that when you repeated this recently without
: citing the source, you still had the same source in mind.

Because there we were discussing something about logic and theology in
general -- that it has no law of excluded middle. Or in English, the
specific rule of paradoxes does not apply to G-d nor the shorashim
of creation.

And his version of the thesis of zeh le'umas zeh is in pesach 30.

(R' Tzadoq (Resisei Lailah #17) also uses zeh le'umas zeh and the idea
that paradox is only prohibited bepo'al, not bemachashavah, to explain
eilu va'eilu.)

It is also sufficient for this conversation, as it shows that G-d can
make a paradox manifest.

However, I am still on the hunt for the source of the specific idea I
was repeating from R' Aryeh Kaplan, that logic as a whole is a nivra
rather than an aspect of Emes. (Work being what it has been the last
week and a half, it's a very part time hunt.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 18th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Tifferes: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             balance?

R' Eli Turkel asks:

> YD 28:4 discusses a buffalo. What animal are the mechaber and Rama
> talking about (American Bison wasn't discovered yet)

Google is wonderful. I entered "yoreh deah 28:4", and the third hit brought
me to http://www.yeshiva.co/midrash/shiur.asp?id=9338 (see there for info
about who they are) which says:

> The Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 28:4) rules that one does not
> perform kisuy hadam for a buffalo; this determines it to be a
> beheimah. (He is presumably referring to the Asian water buffalo,
> which was domesticated in Southern Europe hundreds of years
> before the Shulchan Aruch.) ...

Later in that paragraph he mentions some other species that might have been
meant.

Akiva Miller
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On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 07:52:18AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: me to http://www.yeshiva.co/midrash/shiur.asp?id=9338 (see there for info
: about who they are) which says:
: 
: > The Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 28:4) ...
: >           (He is presumably referring to the Asian water buffalo,
: > which was domesticated in Southern Europe hundreds of years
: > before the Shulchan Aruch.) ...

: Later in that paragraph he mentions some other species that might have been
: meant.

I think that is a list of other species for which the same logic would
apply, and not other possible translations of buffalo.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

A friend pointed out to me the gemara near the top of Pesachim 95b.
In discussing that there is no Hallel on Pesach Sheni the gemara brings the
Pasuk from Yeshayu "Ha-Shir Ye-he Lachem Ke-lel Hitchadesh Chag" Rashi
explains this to mean that the song (Hallel) will be sung when we are
redeemed at the end of the exile

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 05/11/2016 03:50 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> Rashi explains this to mean that the song (Hallel) will be sung when we are redeemed at the end of the exile
>

"On the day that you are redeemed from the exile".  Since lechol hade'os
that has not yet happened (for instance, nobody has changed the davening
to drop all the requests for the redemption, since it's already happened),
it follows that hallel should *not* be said.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

A while back I did a shiur which touched on the efficacy of "Keil
Maaleh's". I found one source which said to give tzedakah before making a
keil maaleh rather than pledging to do so. This sounded extremely rational;
deliver rather than promise. Anyone know why the standard practice
developed to promise tzedakah rather than give it prior to our request of
HKB"H?
KT
Joel Rich

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