Volume 34: Number 66
Wed, 08 Jun 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 16:39:33 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] ohr lagoyim
On 06/06/2016 03:49 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> : Or rather, Hashem is telling us that this will be the end result. I
> : don't see any indication of an obligation on our part towards the
> : nations of the world.
>
> So you see "ve'atim tihu Li mamlekhes kohanim..." as nevu'ah, not a
> tzivui?
1) Yes, of *course* it's not a tzivuy; it's not even a nevuah. It's a
description of the deal being offered: if you listen to Me you will be
My segulah, a mamlechet kohanim and goy kadosh. That is clear pshat;
anything else is a nice drasha, but not relevant to halacha.
2) What is the origin of This idea you keep pushing, that "mamlechet
kohanim" has some connection to outreach to anyone, let alone nochrim?
2a)Since when is that a kohen's job?
2b) Pshat in "kohanim" is princes, as in "uvnei David kohanim" (Rashi)
This whole idea is at most, again, a nice drasha for a rov in shul, or
for a mussar sefer, but certainly not relevant to halacha.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 2
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 13:43:04 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] listening to governments and derabbanan
R' Akiva Miller wrote:
"Okay, so every d'rabanan is actually a d'Oraisa. Is that problematic? I
always thought that was in fact how we hold.
(Even if d'Oraisa, we can still use rules like "safek d'rabanan l'kula",
because that's how they legislated it from the beginning.)"
What you suggested is what the Ran says, however, the Ramban explicitly
rejects this idea.
R' Meir Simcha in the Meshech Chochma on Shoftim has a fascinating
explanation of the Rambam. He says that every din d'rabbanan is not
necessarily a fulfillment of the will of Hashem and in fact may not be what
Hashem wants. The proof is that the Rambam paskens based on the Gemara that
a later greater Beis Din can be mevatel a takana of an earlier Beis Din. If
every takana was the will of Hashem how could that be? Therefore, he
explains that by dinim d'rabbanan what is not important is the actual
mitzva act, but the fact that you listened to the Chachamim and did not
rebel against their words. The issur of lo tasur is an issur to rebel
against the Chahamim, to not listen to them. Given that, we understand why
sefeka d'rabbanan lekula because the act of doing the mitzva is not the
main point, the point is listening to the chachamim, once it is a safek,
there is no need to do the act because it is not so important (contrast
that to a mitzva d'oraysa where the act is clearly and unequivocally the
ratzon hashed) and is not considered a rebellion against the chachamim.
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Message: 3
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 13:51:58 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] listening to governments and derabbanan
R' Elchanan in Kuntrus Divrei Sofrim has the following suggestion to
explain the Ramban. He suggests that there really is no mechayev for dinim
d'rabbanan. He says that why do we keep d'oraysa's? Because we want to do
the ratzon hashem. The same applies to dinim d'rabbanan. We assume that
whatever the chachamim were mesaken is the ratzon hashem and therefore we
keep them because we want to do the ratzon hashem.
This R' Elchanan is a fascinating contrast to the Meshech Chochma I
referenced who explains the Ramabam. R' Meir Simcha makes a very different
assumption. He assumes that every d'rabbanan is NOT necessarily the ratzon
hashem and therefore by d'rabbanans what is important is that you listen to
the chachamim and not rebel, the actual action is not as important ayen
sham.
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:42:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] ohr lagoyim
On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 09:22:53AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: the only problem i have with their approach is that, had the Jewish people
: been eliminated from the earth [ch'v] after jesus' time, it implies
: their job was basically done -- since a billion xtians then took over,
: and a billion moslems after that. the direct interaction of jews w goyim
: in either xtian europe or moslem europe/asia/africa could be argued to
Unless you think our presence had a cultural impact that explains things
like why the doctrine of trinity evolved and why they don't go on Crusades
anymore.
On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 04:39:33PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:> So you see "ve'atim tihu Li mamlekhes kohanim..." as nevu'ah, not a
:> tzivui?
: 1) Yes, of *course* it's not a tzivuy; it's not even a nevuah. It's a
: description of the deal being offered: if you listen to Me you will be
: My segulah, a mamlechet kohanim and goy kadosh. That is clear pshat;
: anything else is a nice drasha, but not relevant to halacha.
Targum Yonasan ad loc "vekhehanin meshamshin" -- to be a kohein is
inehrently to be called on to serve.
Qedushah could be something you do, something done to you, or in many
hashkafos, inherent. (R Meir Simchah haKohein miDvinsk argues against
this last one in both the MC and the OS. Vehemently; likening belief in
inherent qedushah to cheit ha'eigel.) But kehunah? I think it's a job
by definition.
Also the Sifri p' Chuqas #123 considers "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh"
as the kelal for the perat of "eleh devarim asher tedaber el BY... vayasem
lifneihem es kol hadevarim ha'eileh, asher tzivahu H'".
As the Malbim says, to be a kohein is to be meyuchad la'avodas H'. Kehunah
is a duty.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 45th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 6 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Malchus: What is the beauty of
Fax: (270) 514-1507 unity (on all levels of relationship)?
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Message: 5
From: Lisa Liel
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:22:43 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] ohr lagoyim
On 6/7/2016 11:19 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> But kehunah? I think it's a job by definition.
I disagree. It's a status by definition. A status that carries with it
certain responsibilities and certain restrictions.
Lisa
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 16:39:00 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] ohr lagoyim
On 06/07/2016 04:19 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 04:39:33PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> :>So you see "ve'atim tihu Li mamlekhes kohanim..." as nevu'ah, not a
> :>tzivui?
> : 1) Yes, of *course* it's not a tzivuy; it's not even a nevuah. It's a
> : description of the deal being offered: if you listen to Me you will be
> : My segulah, a mamlechet kohanim and goy kadosh. That is clear pshat;
> : anything else is a nice drasha, but not relevant to halacha.
> Targum Yonasan
<nit-pick> You mean, of course, "Yonasan", i.e. a version of Targum
Yerushalmi that a printer mistakenly attributed to Yonasan. But of course
we all know that, I hope. I just expected to see the scare quotes.</nit-pick>
> ad loc "vekhehanin meshamshin" -- to be a kohein is inehrently to be
> called on to serve.
A kohen's shimush is the avodah in the BHMK, not anything else. It's
(1) a promise, not a tzivuy or a nevuah; and (2) has nothing to do with
"service" to anyone.
> Qedushah could be something you do, something done to you, or in many
> hashkafos, inherent. (R Meir Simchah haKohein miDvinsk argues against
> this last one in both the MC and the OS. Vehemently; likening belief in
> inherent qedushah to cheit ha'eigel.) But kehunah? I think it's a job
> by definition.
*If* it's a job, it's a job of avodah BHMK, and the pasuk is promising
that if you do as I tell you then I will award you this prestigious job.
But Rashi says the *pshat* here is not a job at all, but a status. He
has to say that, because al pi pshat non-bechorim were *never* intended
to be kohanim meshamshim.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 17:01:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] ohr lagoyim
On 06/07/2016 04:42 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Also the Sifri p' Chuqas #123 considers "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh"
> as the kelal for the perat of "eleh devarim asher tedaber el BY... vayasem
> lifneihem es kol hadevarim ha'eileh, asher tzivahu H'".
1. I think you got that backwards. Ve'atem tihyu is the prat, and
Eileh had'varim is the klal.
2. I fail to see the point you're deriving from this. How does this make
it a tzivuy of any kind? However you read it, it's still a promise, a
proposed deal, not a command.
> As the Malbim says, to be a kohein is to be meyuchad la'avodas H'.
> Kehunah is a duty.
Meyuchad is not a duty, it's a status. What one is meyuchad *for* can
be a duty, as here (except for the problem that non-bechorim were never
intended to do avodah), but the yichud is not a duty. "Mekudeshes"
doesn't mean "obligated in the duties of a wife", it's the status of
being dedicated to one man, though that status by its nature *comes*
with those obligations. And "harei at mekudeshes li" is certainly not a
command to do those things that a wife is obligated to do for her husband.
It's predicated on an understanding that she *will* do them, but it's not
itself any kind of command.
But all of this is beside the point, because a kohen's job does not
involve any kind of outreach. Except for the two days a year that his
beis av is on duty in the BHMK he has no duties at all.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 17:20:00 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] ohr lagoyim
On Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 11:22:43PM +0300, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
: I disagree. It's a status by definition. A status that carries
: with it certain responsibilities and certain restrictions.
Then how could it be conjugated "lekhahein Li" (Shemos 29:1)?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 17:40:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] ohr lagoyim
On 06/07/2016 05:20 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 11:22:43PM +0300, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
> : I disagree. It's a status by definition. A status that carries
> : with it certain responsibilities and certain restrictions.
>
> Then how could it be conjugated "lekhahein Li" (Shemos 29:1)?
"Melech" and "sar" are statuses, but "limloch" and "lisror" are verbs.
For that matter, the verb "limloch" doesn't actually involve *doing*
anything, it's just a verbal form of "to be king".
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 10
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 09:02:54 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth
The Megilla describes how Ruth sneaks in to where Boaz is sleeping and lies
down at his feet and that Boaz woke up in the middle of the night to find
her there.
The Gemara in Sanhedrin (19b) states that Boaz had a bigger Nisayon with
Ruth then Yosef had with Potifer's wife because Ruth was single and tehora
(see Rashi there).
I am having a hard time understanding this nisayon. Imagine if you woke up
and found a beautiful woman (full clothed in a tznius manner) lying at your
feet. Would you have any hava amina to sleep with her? I would bet that the
answer for everyone (male) reading this is no. The thought would not even
cross our mind. So why does the Gemara state that this was a tremendous
nisayon for Boaz? It's not like there is no yetzer hara for arrayos today,
there certainly is, just look around at what is going on in the world
around us and even within the frum community. And yet, IMHO the average
person would not see the situation described in the Megilla as a nisayon at
all.
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Message: 11
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2016 21:09:30 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth
Maybe you're projecting 2016 sexual mores on a Middle Eastern society
from 2500 years ago? Ruth was super modest. Doing something so unmodest
(again, in that society (and in contemporary Torah society) could simply
be taken as a sign that she wanted to sleep with him.
Ben
On 6/8/2016 8:02 AM, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> I am having a hard time understanding this nisayon. Imagine if you
> woke up and found a beautiful woman (full clothed in a tznius manner)
> lying at your feet. Would you have any hava amina to sleep with her?
Go to top.
Message: 12
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 22:23:05 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth
On Wednesday, June 8, 2016, Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:
> Maybe you're projecting 2016 sexual mores on a Middle Eastern society from
> 2500 years ago? Ruth was super modest. Doing something so unmodest (again,
> in that society (and in contemporary Torah society) could simply be taken
> as a sign that she wanted to sleep with him.
>
> Ben
>
>
> Even if that is true, why does that make it a big nisayon for boaz? It's
either an issur drabbanan or doraysa for him to sleep with her. Why would
he be tempted? He also happened to be an old man. If a woman came up to
you and made it clear that she wants to sleep with you would you be
tempted? Would that be a tremendous nisayon?
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Message: 13
From: saul newman
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 12:42:09 -0700
Subject: [Avodah] samael
not pronouncing the name of that angel, is that a chassidic thing? have
never encountered that before elsewhere. what is the source and the danger
of doing so?
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Message: 14
From: saul newman
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 13:01:15 -0700
Subject: [Avodah] encouraging twins and up
in this documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itq7BvTGgWI&;feature=youtu.be
it is claimed that some women use meds to have multiple births since a few
babies at a time will basically mean over all less time off from work in
the long run. i wonder if the claim is true, and if so, how could there
be a hetter for such a thing---multiples are riskier than singletons; i
can't imagine that a posek could allow that jsut for budgetary reasons...
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