Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 76

Mon, 04 Jul 2016

• 1. Rishon vs Acharon and other kelalei pesak (Micha Berger)
• 2. Yanik (Micha Berger)
• 3. meanings (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: meanings (Simon Montagu)
• 5. Re: meanings (Micha Berger)
• 6. ?Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).? ? Mark Twain (Cantor Wolberg)
• 7. Re: meanings (Zev Sero)

There are some interesting se'ifim toward the end of AhS YD 242 that touch
on a number of our perennial topics.

Se'ifin 58-62 discuss the din of whether a rav can pasqen on something
that someone else already pasqened on, and if so, is a sho'el allowed
to ask the second rav the self-same question.

In 59 he opines (nir'eh LAD) that the Raavad, Ramban, Rashba, Rosh
and Ran (AZ 7) all say the issue is not the kavod of the first talmid
chakham, but because once he prohibits, chal alei chatichah de'isura
[CACD]. Therefore, if the first TC made an error in a zil qeri bei rav
matter, it's like someone who avoids a piece of shuman thinking it's
cheilev, and there is no CACD. However, ther 2nd TC *may* say "I think
it's allowed, but I will not permit something R' XYZ already prohibited."

If a talmid chakham was matir and no one acted on it, another TC can be
machmir. But if it was acted upon, he can't. I do not see an explanation
why.

Later we learn that a TC of an obviously higher caliber, or a moreh
de'asra in his own town, can indeed overrule an earlier TC's ruling.

Another interesting topic is 35 -- if acharonim disagree with a rishon
whose opinion was available in their day, we follow the acharonim. If
the rishon was not (eg Me'iri), we say that perhaps the acharonim would
have ruledd differently had they seen it. But you cznnot rule against
a ga'on. Yeish omerim you never hold like acharonim against rishonim,
but yesh lehisyasheiv bazeh. However, if the rishon find one position
compelling (yakhol lehachira) he may pasqen as he sees (except against
geonim).

36: Just as it is assur to permit the prohibited, so too it is assur
to prohibit the permitted. Even if there is no hefseid, or the item is
owned by a non-Jew. However, safeiq and being chosheish for the opinoin
of many rishonim is sufficient motive . According to the Shakh this is
because "shelo ya'asu agudos agudos."

In general the AhS refers to the Shakh's qunetrus on kelalei hapesaq
a lot. Even though on a couple of things he holds like the Rama over
the Shakh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

AhS YD 244 is about  vehadarta penei zaqein -- both someone chronologically
old (as long as he is not a rasha or an am ha'aretz who therefore ends up
non-observant by ignorance), and a talmid chakham.

In se'if 3 he says that a zaqein for the sake of this mitzvah would even
include a TC who is a yaniq. Not a qatan. So what's a yaniq? Someone
17 or younger.

Are there any mitzvos for which 17 yrs old is a significant age?

The ony reference I could dream up is R' Elazar ben Azaria, who was 17,
was supposed to be getting kavod (being nasi), and turned gray (keben
shiv'im shanah) overnight. Problem is, he was 18 according to the Bavli;
it's the Yerushalmi who has him becoming nasi at 16, and saying this quote
at 17. And of cvourse the bigger problem is that there is no reason to
turn the age REbA happened to be into a cutoff line.

Can anyone think of something?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

For the pasuk "Poteiach et yadecha" and for the placement of a comma before
or after "vishei Yisrael" in retzeih, there are two possibilities with
different meanings.( By poteiach-whose ratzon?) Can you switch off or
should you pick one?

KT
Joel Rich

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On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> For the pasuk "Poteiach et yadecha" and for the placement of a comma
> before or after "vishei Yisrael" in retzeih, there are two possibilities
> with different meanings. (By poteiach-whose ratzon?) Can you switch off or
> should you pick one?

Another example in Hallel: ze hayom `asa Hashem, nagila venismha bo (is
"bo" hayom or Hashem? Most translations seem to go for "hayom", but
"veyyismehu becha Yisrael" in the kedushat hayom of 18 for regalim fits
with "bo" meaning Hashem)

My humble opinion: for pesukim, if there are two possibilities it's not by
chance, and mikra lo yotze mipeshuto -- including all its peshatim. For
tefilla, I'm not so sure, but I think you should probably pick one.

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 09:10:30AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: For the pasuk "Poteiach et yadecha" and for the placement of a comma
: before or after "vishei Yisrael" in retzeih, there are two possibilities
: with different meanings.( By poteiach-whose ratzon?) Can you switch off
: or should you pick one?

As per my answer to you at this week's wonderful Audio Roundup
<http://www.torahmusings.com/category/audio>, I believe you *should*
switch off. Poets make a point of layering on multiple meanings when
they wish to convey a picture using al of them. I believe the point of
ambiguity in tefillah is just so that you can emphasize different shades
of meaning depending on what you want to way this particular time.

(I accept tips for plugging a member's web site via Paypal. Contact me
off-list. <grin> No, seriously, the biggest problem with RJR's Audio
Roundup over on TM is that he tempts you with too many good shiurim for
just one week of listening time.)

There is a basic grammatical problem, two nouns, both the object of the
sentence, with nothing indicating which is the primary object, which
the secondary, nor anything connecting them into a single phrase that
could be one object.

Thanks to previous Avodah discussions, I have a list of ways to read
"umasbia lekhol chai ratzon":

- Pashut peshat [check your typical siddur translation] would be as
  though the pasuq read "umasbia' ritzon kol chai" -- leaving every
  desire satisfied. (Or maybe "umasbia lekhol chai es tetzono".)

  RYGB  disliked this peshat because it's experimentally false. Many
  people die with unfulfilled desires.


- Rav Schwab says that everyone is dependent on "yennem's" liking him
  for his parnassa.... Hashem provides this needed "ratzon". (RGD)

  RMPoppers suggests [on Mesorah] that "ratzon" was the very quality
  that HQBH is bequeathing, IIRC, something akin to granting "chein".


- [T]he Malbim's pshat - Ratzon Hashem. (RYGB)

  [W]ould would work better if the pasuq read "... umasbia' lechol chei
  beratzon" .(me)


- RAYK points out that without ratzon, goals and purposes for a
  person to persue, life is empty. So he too says that Hashem bestows
  ratzon -- but means it in the sense of having desire, not being
  desired/desirable. Hashem does us a tovah by giving us retzonos
  to pursue.

Someone else noted the parallel in pereq 104:27-28 as an argument
for what I called "pashut peshat":
> Kulam alecha yesaberun   / Eynai kol alecha yesabeiru
> Lases ochlam b'ito       / V'atah nosein lahem achlam b'ito
> Titein lahem yilkotun.
> Tiftach yadcha           / Poseach es yadech
> yisbe'un tov.            / U'masbiya l'kol chay ratzon.

> The whole string of preceding psukim in 104 refer to G-d's ability to
> sustain the world in a very real and material way, not abstractions like
> bestowing "razton".

But I think that David haMelekh created the obscure phrasing because
the real answer is "(E) All of the above".


I believe, though, that what happened with ve'ishei Yisrael is simpler.
Birkhas Avodah ("Retzeih") was originally written for the kohanim to
say in bayis sheini. (Tamid 5:1)

In that original context, "Ve'ishei Yisrael usefilasam teqabel
beratzon..." works.

When birkhas Avodah was modified to become art of Shemoneh Esrai in
a world without qorbanos, how do we salvage this line? Do we move the
period so that what we are folding it into the new phrase
        vehasheiv:
           - es a'avodah lidvir beisekha,
           - ve'ishei Yisrael.
Or do we repurpose the old sentence to mean "And may you lovingly accept
the ishei yisrael and their tefillos" - which I know is asking you to
restore the BHMQ bfirst? Or do we pun on "ishei Yisrael" pretending it
means "anshei Yisrael" but in a unique conjugation?

But the question is how to find meaning in a pre-existing text under a new
circumstance. Not multiuple layers of original intent.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
mi...@aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

We all know the minority report by Joshua and Caleb showers its praises on the land and counsels b?nai Yisroel  to
go up to it. The ten other ?spies? give a very negative report against the land and can see only giants, fortified cities
and difficulties they feel are insurmountable. These ten men of small stature conclude their report with the following:
?And there we saw the giants (nephilim), the sons of the giant (Anak), from among the giants; And we were like
grasshoppers in our own eyes and so we were in their sight. (Bamidbar 13:33).

The Midrash states that at these words, God said: 
?I have no objection to your saying, ?We were like grasshoppers in our own eyes,? but it is inappropriate if you say, 
?and so were were in their sight.? How do you know how you appeared to them? How do you know if you did not appear
to them  to be angels?? (Midrash Bamidar Rabbah, XVL, II).

This is a profound psychological insight. How many times we feel insignificant and think everyone else looks at us the
same. Just because you feel inferior doesn?t mean you are. That?s the meaning of ?You?re your own worst enemy."

Shabbat shalom.
ri

On 06/30/2016 02:13 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I believe, though, that what happened with ve'ishei Yisrael is simpler.
> Birkhas Avodah ("Retzeih") was originally written for the kohanim to
> say in bayis sheini. (Tamid 5:1)
>
> In that original context, "Ve'ishei Yisrael usefilasam teqabel
> beratzon..." works.
>
> When birkhas Avodah was modified to become art of Shemoneh Esrai in
> a world without qorbanos, how do we salvage this line? Do we move the
> period so that what we are folding it into the new phrase
>    vehasheiv:
>       - es a'avodah lidvir beisekha,
>       - ve'ishei Yisrael.
> Or do we repurpose the old sentence to mean "And may you lovingly accept
> the ishei yisrael and their tefillos" - which I know is asking you to
> restore the BHMQ bfirst?

I don't see the problem, or the "repurposing".   The phrase means exactly
what it always meant.  The only change the bracha needed to adapt it to
the new reality was the addition of a new request, to restore the avodah,
before the request to accept our korbanos and tefillos.  Once the new
request is fulfilled, the next one won't be a problem.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis


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