Volume 34: Number 94
Tue, 16 Aug 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Efraim Yawitz
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 12:58:21 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] How to teach emuna
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 05:35:14PM +0300, Efraim Yawitz wrote:
>>> : In short, do you really believe that Yoshiahu and Ezra were
convincing
>>> : people about the origin of the Jewish people...
>>> : If so, what did convince them? If that's what you think,
then I
>>> : guess the whole thing really is a scam.
>>>
>>> You're all-or-nothing-ing it. But I do believe that a small core of
>>> maaminim had to convince the masses that the Torah we have was
dictated to
>>> Moshe (+/- a few pesuqim at the end) by G-d, that *everyone*
experienced
>>> the 10 commandments, and other core beliefs that the Kuzari Principle
>>> would say it is impossible for them to do so.
You are conveniently changing the subject. I mentioned "the origin of the
Jewish people" and you are writing something about belief "that the Torah
we have was dictated to Moshe", etc.
My whole point was that the "Kuzari Principle" at its most basic level is
only about a shared history rather than specifics of religious belief. I
see nowhere in Tanach that at any point
there was a difference of opinion about the beginnings of Am Yisrael, only
about what that obligated the individual in.
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Message: 2
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 06:05:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] silk-screened sifrei torah (STAM) and megillot
R' Micha Berger wrote:
> With silk screen, the person is rolling out the letters in order.
> With printing, the whole amud is made at once.
Is that really the case when silk screening? I really don't know much about
that process, but the word "roll" gives me the impression that it goes from
the top of the page to the bottom. If so, then although you don't have the
entire amud being made at once, you *would* have an entire line being made
at once, which is *not* creating "the letters in order".
Akiva Miller
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Message: 3
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 12:02:29 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] Emunah, intelligent design, scientific processes
Science, by its own definition, never proves anything. It can only disprove.
A million people can drop things and measure their acceleration, we can
launch vehicles into outer space, all based upon Newtonian physics, in
spite of it being incorrect. And they knew all along that it was incorrect.
So we can prove things wrong with one observation but cannot prove it
correct with a million confirmations.
Science is about postulates. Many are possible but the most elegant is
accepted as the working hypothesis, Occam's Razor. And as we have seen,
remains in place sometimes even if we know it is incorrect.
If the question - does Gd exist?, were approached using the scientific
approach, there is no question that the most elegant postulate is, Gd must
exist because there must be a beginning somewhere - when the scietists
finally confront Gd saying we have discovered how to create life, you just
take a bit of dirt and put it into a test-tube ... they will be interrupted
by Gd saying, that's MY dirt, you guys go get some of your own
A bar-mitzvah boy and bas mitzvah girl are commanded to know Gd. Can they
be expected to know what the great philosophers have not been able to
resolve? Of course they can, because they do not have a contaminated mind.
And I mean contaminated by Negios.
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Message: 4
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 05:59:20 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When do all the restrictions of the Three Weeks
R' Yitzchok Levine posted
From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
> It is questionable whether we can play and listen to music
> Sunday evening, this year. Is music, which is used for
> simcha, treated like meat and wine, which are restricted at
> night and not permitted until the morning? Or do we consider
> music as less significant, and it is permitted immediately
> after the fast, similar to haircuts, laundry and bathing?
> (See Kitzur Hilchos Bein HaMetzarim p. 32:3 who prohibits
> and the sefer Pesach V'Tisha B'Av B'Shabbos p. 154-155 who
> permits). Rav Schachter, shlit"a paskened that when Tisha
> B'Av is postponed, playing or listening to music is
> permitted right after the fast is over.
These answers would be much more meaningful if we were told how these
poskim feel about someone getting married on Sunday night.
Can I presume that Kitzur Hilchos Bein HaMetzarim says not to?
And I'd like to know what the sefer Pesach V'Tisha B'Av B'Shabbos, and Rav
Schachter, say. Perhaps they allow such weddings, And music is a kal
vachomer. But perhaps they do not allow such weddings, and they are drawing
a line between the great simcha and clear status of a wedding, vs. the
barely-mentioned-in-Shulchan-Aruch status of music.
Akiva Miller
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Message: 5
From: M Cohen
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 12:12:54 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] car rental corporate discount code question
A chabad rabbi gave a friend Chabad's corporate car rental discount code
(and told him to feel free to use it)
He said that chabad doesn't mind, bc the more that use it, the more clout
Chabad has when negotiating discounts with the car rental agency
The friend asked me if it is mutar (ie not genavas daas or genavas mammon)
I answered that its mutar if either of the following are true..
1. The car rental agency is not makpid if pple that are not members use
other discount codes (probably bc the car rental agency wins as they w
rather have him rent their cars even with the discount than have him rent
from their competitors)
Or
2. The Chabad's corporate discount w apply according to their
Enterprise agreement.
Ie its unlikely you have to have a pinched hat to qualify. Do you have pay
chabad dues? Is it enough that you're a rabbi?
I don't know if either of the 2 above are true (I suspect so, but am
unsure).
Does anyone know if either of the 2 above are true?
Mordechai Cohen mco...@touchlogic.com
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vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>A chabad rabbi
gave a friend Chabad's corporate car rental discount code (and told him to
feel free to use it)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>He said that
chabad doesn't mind, bc the more that use it, the more clout Chabad has when
negotiat
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 14:32:22 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] How to teach emuna
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:58:21PM +0300, Efraim Yawitz via Avodah wrote:
: My whole point was that the "Kuzari Principle" at its most basic level is
: only about a shared history rather than specifics of religious belief. I
: see nowhere in Tanach that at any point
It is about a specific historical claim.... national revelation.
Which is also one specific of religious belief.
R Moshe ben Chaim (mesora.org) argued that rejecting the validity of the
KP as a proof is a rejection of Devarim 4:9-10. That our emunah in Toras
Moshe and Yetzi'as Mitzrayim *must* be founded on the KP.
If one does not believe in or even know about the idea of Torah miSinai,
they cannot possibly believe in or not about the events of its revelation
-- said historical event.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:04:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] car rental corporate discount code question
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:12:54PM -0400, M Cohen via Avodah wrote:
: I answered that its mutar if either of the following are true..
: 1. The car rental agency is not makpid if pple that are not members use
: other discount codes...
I am not sure this is sufficient to make it mutar. You would need to
know that he is not only "not makpid" but even stands to gain. "Zakhin
le'adam". So you would need to talk to the relevant car rental agent.
But you have to be up-front that you are not a member anyway. Geneivas
da'as / "midevar sheqer tirchaq" is assur regardless of whether the
victim is Yehudi or nakhri.
Onaas devarim includes selling non-kosher meat to a non-Jew who will
assume it's kosher. Even if it has the same value to the purchaser.
: Or
: 2. The Chabad's corporate discount w apply according to their
: Enterprise agreement.
I have a feeling the agreement is informal, so, likely after talking to
him he would be fine with it. There is no formal Chabad corporate entity.
Alternatively, there is a specific corporate entity that happens to be
Chabad-related that actually has the agreeement, and any other Chabadnikim
using the discount are also stretching the agreement. But as I said, I
think it's more likely there is just something informal in place.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too
mi...@aishdas.org once you get to know them.
http://www.aishdas.org - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
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Message: 8
From: M Cohen
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:19:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] car rental corporate discount code question
..But you have to be up-front that you are not a member anyway. Geneivas
da'as / "midevar sheqer tirchaq" is assur regardless of whether the victim
is Yehudi or nakhri.
I'm not so sure about that its Geneivas da'as. If upfront, the clerk might
have to say no (for policy reasons), even though if don't ask/don't tell
they would certainly have allowed it.
Similar to asking a policeman if I can drive 3-8 m/hr over the limit - he
might have to answer that you can't, even though the reality is that it is
actually ok.
It's not midevar sheqer tirchaq, you are just stating that this is code you
want to use.
mc
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 16:36:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] car rental corporate discount code question
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 03:19:02PM -0400, M Cohen via Avodah wrote:
:> ..But you have to be up-front that you are not a member anyway. Geneivas
:> da'as / "midevar sheqer tirchaq" is assur regardless of whether the victim
:> is Yehudi or nakhri.
:
: I'm not so sure about that its Geneivas da'as. If upfront, the clerk might
: have to say no (for policy reasons), even though if don't ask/don't tell
: they would certainly have allowed it.
As I mentioned about selling tereif food to a non-Jew, even if there
is no difference in value or price -- lying is assur regardless of any
fiscal impact.
: It's not midevar sheqer tirchaq, you are just stating that this is code you
: want to use.
Are you leaving it implied that you're a chabadnik when you aren't?
(For reasons other than mipenei hashalom, mesechet, puraya or
ushpiza?)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507 to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 17:13:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] intelligent design
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 02:19:16PM +0000, Harry Maryles via Avodah wrote:
: They will then challenge that idea by asking 'Who created God?' ad
: infinitum, thus believing they have refuted the 'first cause'
: premise. They somehow do not understand the concept of 'First cause'. By
: definition, the 'creation buck' stops there! The Creator' needs no
: creator because He has always existed. difficult to understand but no
: less difficult than saying the universe has always existed.
I think you are making a mistake with your "He has always existed".
That gives G-d an age of infinity. Within time, albeit within all of it.
Hashem is lemaalah min hazeman. He has no beginning and no end in time
because He has no first-hand time.
And that answers their question.
Hashem is not First Cause in the sense of beginning at the beginning
of the chain of causes. That would put Him within time, albeit somehow
before the first moment of the universe and its time.
Hashem is First Cause because He caused the chain as a whole, in a manner
unrelated to the causal linkage within the chain of time. Not only the
first link in the chain alone, like some Deistic view of creation.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507 a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 11
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 17:26:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] true navi/false navi
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:30:29AM +0300, Simi Peters via Avodah wrote:
: First, they are all saying, en masse, exactly the same thing, which means
: that they rehearsed it. (Ein shnei nevi'im mitnab'im besafa ahat. Or maybe
: it is 'lashon ehad'. I may not have the exact lashon here. Corrections
: welcome.)
I think you were tripped up because you were thinking in Hebrew. So it
was easier for a chutznik like myself. The word you were looking for
entered Aramaic (and view this pitgam, modern Hebrew) from Greek: signum
(Gr) -> signon (Ar).
Sanhedrin 89a (making your very point: medeq'amrei kulhu kehadaderi --
shema minah lo kelum qa'amrei):
De'ama Rabbi Yitzchaq:
Signon echad oleh lekamah nevi'im
ve'ein sheni nevi'im misnbe'im besignon echad.
As an example, R Yitzchaq compares Ovadia 1:3 "zedon lib'kha hisiekha"
to Yirmiyahu 49:16 "hisi osakh zedon libekha". Both saying roughly the
same thing to Edom, but with different word order -- and thus emphasis.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - R' Binyamin Hecht
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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:56:46 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Minchas N'sachim
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 11:57:17AM -0400, Sholom Simon wrote:
: Why does the torah tell us -- so many times -- that the minchas
: n'sachim contains 3 issaron of flour per par; 2 issaron per ayil,
: and 1 issaron per keves.
:
: L'chora, it seems a bit redundant, no?
The oil and wine too:
Baqar: 1/2 hin (6 lug) wine and oil, 3 esronim (.3 eifah) soles
Ayil: 1/3 hin (4 lug) wine and oil, and 2 esronim (.2 eifah) soles
Keves: 1/4 hin (3 lug) wine and oil, 1 isaron (.1 eifah) soles
Owf for the chatas and asham of a metzorah are the only ones that get
nesachim and minchah (Menachos 91a-b), but I couldn't see where the
gemara discusses how much!
: I'm sure I'm not the first to ask this question!
: Does anybody have any insights?
It am chiming in to let the chevrah know that I tried hard, but have to
throw in the towel. I couldn't find anyone discussing why the nesachim
are listed per qorban rather than per species of animal in the qorban.
Here's a homiletic take: The Ramban says that the repetition of the
gifts of each nasi (as the end of Naso) even though their contents
were apparently identical is because each nasi actually had entirely
different kavanos, relating teh silver tray speifically to their sheivet's
experience, the bowl is so meaningful for them to give, their soles
belulah bashemen... So that each qorban is listed separately because
each qorban was unique, even if the physical items in it were identical.
A lesson that kavanah matters.
Applying it here seems straightforward. Yes, ever par gets the same
3 esronim, 1/2 hin and 1/2 hin. But perhaps in each case it evokes
something different?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 17:03:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rambam omitting sources and Rambam regarding
On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 11:15:29AM -0400, H Lampel wrote:
: On 8/1/2016 5:19 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
: >I am unclear how the Rambam gets this peshat in the mishnah.
: >Edios 1:4 says the motive for mentioning both shitos in machloqesin
: >between batei Hillel veShammah is "to teach future generations, so that
: >a person does not stand on his words. For even the avos holam did not
: >stand on their words."
: >To teach middos, that others learn for Beis Shammai's (and occasionally
: >BH's) example about how to lose a machloqes. Middos without which the
: >kelalei pesaq wouldn't work.
: First, to clarify, the mishna's question is why the previous mishna(s)
: mention(s) the opinions of Shammai and Hillel (not Beis Shammai and Beis
: Hillel) *l'batala/l'vatlan,* i.e. when they only to go on to report that
: both opinions were ultimately rejected by the Sages.
I thought 1:4-5 were giving general rules, not specific to understanding
the machloqes in 1:3. After all, gadol mimenu bechokhmah uveminyan is
applied across the board. And doesn't 1:6 explicitly move the yachid
verabbim discussion into all cases, "For if someone says 'this is what
i reveived', it could be said to him 'you heard like Ploni'" but the
rabbim outvoted him.
I also didn't realize that the end of 1:3 implies that the chakhamim
were hearing the eidus, "ve'heidu mishum Shmayah veAvtalyon... Veqiymu
Chakhamim es divreihem." I had learned these mishnayos as giving eidus
about Hillel, Shammai, Shammai, Avvtalion, and the Chakhamim of their day.
...
: But to the point of your question: In any case, the Rambam's point is
: that the premise of these mishnayos, which their answers do not abandon,
: is that the Mishna was primarily composed to present the contemporary
: settled and unsettled decisions, not to report formally rejected opinions
: and who held them, and only reported disputes if Rebbi considered them
: still unsettled, or if people were still somehow practicing the rejected
: halacha . The previous three aberrational mishnas are meant to teach
: a mussar lesson and are the exceptions that prove the rule. The Rambam
: explains that in his Mishneh Torah he follows this system, and we see
: that he also only rarely presents a mussar lesson. The issues unsettled
: in Rebbi's time were mostly settled since through the darkei pesak of
: the Gemora, and the practice of rejected opinions ceased, and so the
: Rambam inscribed the legitimate halachos in his Mishneh Torah without
: noting the opposing opinions or practices of the past.
What makes them abberational? I see the whole discussion in mishnayos
4-6 as holding them up as examples! After all, not only does Rebbe cite
even his contemporaries' opinions, R' Ashi does as well.
So then how does he qualify as sof hora'ah? If they're giving hora'ah,
and hora'ah is supposed to look like Mishnah Torah, why didn't Rav Ashina
and Ravina write the Rif rather than shas?
: >The Rambam's desire to avoid that fuzziness derives from his uniquely
: >Accumulative approach to halakhah. The majority of rishonim believe
: >that halakhah is Constitutive. IOW, the Rambam believes correct pesaq
: >is discovered by the poseiq, whereas the dominant position is that it is
: >invented. To the inventor, other positions are pieces that go into
: >the construction. To the discoverer, they are wild geese to chase.
: "Invention" is an ill-chosen word, although if it is to be used at all
: it would apply to the Rambam's explanation of a Besi Din Gadol's ability
: to re-evaluate the meaning of pesukim...
Yeah, but I am talking about pesaq in existing halakhah, not the creation of
new ones.
Generally, most rishonim say that a pesaq is correct because by
definition, following kelalei pesaq creates a correct answer.
The Rambam (and RMF in the haqdamah but contradicted elsewhere in a few
teshuvos) says that a pesaq is the best we can do, and could be found
to be wrong in an objective sens.
But then, we've discussed RMHalbertal's position repeatedly already
http://rambam.merkaz.com/Class%204%20-%20Halbertal.pdf
R/Prof Ephraim Karnefogel gives more examples at
http://hsf.bgu.ac.il/cjt/files/Knowledge/Kanarfogel.pdf
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org in fact, of our modesty.
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Message: 14
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 17:05:53 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] birchat kohanim - tenai based on which shitah is
On Sun, Aug 07, 2016 at 12:53:56PM -0400, Jacob Trachtman via Avodah wrote:
: I know the poskim use tenaim like that sometimes but I don't understand
: how it works. What is the objective reality that decides the tenai? Since
: the Torah is *lo bashamayim *is there an objectively right answer (e.g. as
: to whether it is appropriate to say hallel) or is the right answer based on
: the hachraah of a posek?
Or, both answers are right in superposition, since there is no pesaq,
and therefore my act has two meanings, in superposition.
After all, my kavanah is one of "maybe", which is itself being willing to
entertain both sides. This notion of two coexisting valid intepretations
of my act actually fits my state of mind when doing it?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself
mi...@aishdas.org Life is about creating yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org - Bernard Shaw
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 15
From: jay
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 19:47:51 -0600 (CDT)
Subject: [Avodah] Legions
Yesterday I observed the fast of Av in a Sefardi synagog, for the
first time in my life, and I was surprised to hear the shliax tsibbur
say "ligyonim" during the repetition of the afternoon Amida. I
checked the other Sefardi prayer books in the synagog, not just the
one used by the shliax tsibbur, and they all said ligyonim. My own
prayer book, used by Ashkenazi xasidim, said "ligyonoth", as did the
one Lubavitcher prayer book in the synagog. There were no authentic
Ashkenazi prayer books there but this morning I looked up an Ashkenazi
prayer book on-line and it also said ligyonoth.
How do you pluralize a Latin word in Hebrew? If Hebrew were a
language like English, the foreign plural would be retained, which is
why we have graffiti and agenda, but in Hebrew foreign words always
inflect according to the rules of Hebrew (with rare and subtle
exceptions -- Hebrew words with five consonants, like sha`atnez and
tsfardea` and tarngol, are obviously of foreign origin, and tsfardea`
inflects peculiarly in Exodus: the first letter of the word, in all of
its forms, never takes a dagesh xazaq when preceded by the definite
article, which Ya`aqov Kamenetsky attributes to its foreign origin,
unfortunately he has no similarly satisfying explanation for leviim).
Hebrew words that end in -on are masculine in gender, and masculine
words usually form their plural by addin -im, but words that end in
-on form their plural by adding -oth as a rule, one says ra`ayonoth
and sh`onoth and xalonoth. A native speaker of Hebrew, guided by his
language sense, would say ligyonoth without thinking; a non-native
speaker would consult the rule and say ligyonim.
What makes this interesting is that the conventional wisdom, at last
on this mailing list, is that Ashkenazim come from Israel (or, more
precisely, Palestine) and that Sefardim come from Babylon. It seems
to me that you could get to Spain more easily from Israel than from
Babylon, and you wouldn't have to cross political boundaries, but
that's what people say. We do know that our ancestors spoke Hebrew
much longer in Israel than they did in Babylon, until it was
supplanted by Aramaic, and even after it was, hillbillies and other
people lacking formal education, like Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi's
maidservant, continued to use Hebrew words here and there, just as the
English spoken in Texas by the common people has more Spanish in it
than the English spoken in New York, compare the language used in
O. Henry stories set in the two locations. In the tiny difference, a
matter of two letters, in the pluralization of a foreign word, we have
additional evidence in support of the counterintuitive hypothesis
that Ashkenazim are from Palestine and Sefardim are from Babylon.
Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
6424 N Whipple St
Chicago IL 60645-4111
(1-773)7613784 landline
(1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice
j...@m5.chicago.il.us
http://m5.chicago.il.us
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"
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