Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 102

Fri, 26 Aug 2016

• 1. Using a dishwasher for both fleishigs and milchigs (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs (Micha Berger)
• 3. Foie Gras (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: How do we evaluate nezeq nowadays of a person? (Marty Bluke)
• 5. Re: How do we evaluate nezeq nowadays of a person? (Zev Sero)
• 6. microwave Pareve Fleisihg (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 7. Evaluating Nezek nowadays without slave markets (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 8. Safety warning re: microwave Pareve Fleisihg (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 9. Re: Safety warning re: microwave Pareve Fleisihg (Simon Montagu)
• 10. Re: Evaluating Nezek nowadays without slave markets (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Evaluating Nezek nowadays without slave markets (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 12. Re: Evaluating Nezek nowadays without slave markets (Zev Sero)

From R' Asher Weis's talmidim's website, a translation of a shu"t by RAW.
http://en.tvunah.org/2016/08/25/dishwasher-for-meat-and-dairy/

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


Question:

I was wondering what the issue of using a dishwasher for both meat
and dairy would be considering it is NAT BAR NAT BAR NAT. and it is
additionally lpgam due to the detergent. I have seen it quoted in Or
Yitzchak by Rav Abbadi from Lakewood. And wondering if it is what to
rely on.

Secondly, and more peripheral, where did the misconception come from that
a Sephardi follows Sephardi Rabanim, and Ashkenazi follow Ashkenazi? Me
being a Sephardi I feel obligated to follow Rav Yosef. But is it the
right way of thinking? Thank you.

Answer:

There are hundreds of different models of dishwashers, each one needs
to be checked to determine its status for using for milk and meat. I
presume you are referring to using the same dishwasher for meat and milk
one after the other and not at the same time.

Some of the potential problems include, dishwashers with a hot rinse cycle
that does not use detergent and so does not make the taam pagum. Some
dishwashers have drainage and/gaskets that accumulate actual pieces of
food which are not immediately nifgam, and are not Nat bar Nat because
the actual food is there.

Some wait 24 hours, or run a pareve cycle and then use from meat to milk,
but many are stringent not to use at all for meat and milk, and this is
certainly a commendable and advisable practice.

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 02:11:36PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: A. We have previously seen that a microwave oven should not be kashered
: back and forth from milchigs to fleishigs, since we are concerned that
: one may forget the status of the microwave and might inadvertently cook
: dairy in it after using it for meat. However, Rav Schachter said that
: there is reason to be lenient with regard to kashering a conventional
: oven. In a conventional oven, the food is always placed in pans and
: does not directly touch the surfaces of the oven. Additionally, an oven
: will not fill with steam to the same degree as a microwave....

I don't understand either of these distinctions, for balebateshe reasons:

1- How often do people put food directly in the microwave without a plate?
More often than people using the oven grates directly?

2- As RMR just noted last week, how much steam do you typically find
fogging up your microwave? How often to you open your oven and a cloud
of vapor slithers out the opening door?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Problems are not stop signs,
mi...@aishdas.org        they are guidelines.
http://www.aishdas.org           - Robert H. Schuller
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I last touched this topic in 2013
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol31/v31n137.shtml#12

In that post MK R Moshe Gafni (degel) assumed the production of foie gras
was assur and voted atainst legalizing production in Israel. RYSE was asked,
said mutar. RMF (EhE 4:92) distinguishes based on the quailty of the
benefit to people. RMF felt that white veal was not that much more than
a marketing ploy, and the tza'ar ba'aei chaim is not justifiable. Nothing
directly about foie gras, though. Oral tradition has it that the Chasam
Sofer often ate foie gras. (Presumably he wouldn't have if its production
was assur, even if the resulting food is kosher.)

RMT prohibits both, but on the grounds that the resulting goose or calf is
too likely to be a tereifah, not tzaar baalei chaim.

Well, a new contribution, also (like the dishwasher post above) from
the R' Asher Weiss web site
<http://en.tvunah.org/2016/08/25/kashrus-of-goose-liver>.
Here's the English, there is much more in Hebrew. (My impression: The
same kind of mutar but is this really what we want to be doing? as the
Noda biYhudah on hunting.)

    Question:

    Kvod Harav, what is your view and psak halacha in regards to the
    consumption of goose liver which has presumably been force fed,
    assuming there was no issue of treifos in the veshet/kaneh, but
    rather due to tzaar baalei chaim, from the little bit that I have
    seen, being that its done for mankind, and its done by a non jew,
    and it may only be a Drabanan, would that impose an issur on someone
    who hasnt taken part in the force feeding, from eat it? thank you.

    Answer:

    Something being done to an animal for the purpose of food preparation
    is permitted according to the letter of the law. Nevertheless, the
    Rama at the end of Even Haezer Siman 5 writes that even when there
    is no actual prohibition of Tzaar Baalei Chaim, there is still the
    concern of acting with cruelty towards animals. For this reason,
    he explains, people tend to refrain from such procedures, when they
    are not totally necessary. This would seem to be true of foie gras
    as well. The question of using such methods should be considered
    within this context, and judged based on the necessity and gain
    while considering the animals pain. Consumption of the food after
    the fact would not seem to pose a problem, although we should not
    be encouraging such procedures even done by non Jews.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 10:46 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> 2. Nowadays we have more sophisticated methods of determining appropriate
> compensation, which have been worked out by the civil courts.  I think a
> beis din today, setting the limit on "ad sheyefayes" as described in CM 1,
> would say it's whatever he could have got in civil court had he sued there.

Are you saying that the din of the gemara no longer applies because we
have better ways of determining value? I looked in the Pischei Choshen
(which is a contemporary sefer on Choshen Mishpat) and he still quotes
what it says in the Shulchan Aruch as to how to determine the nezeq.

On 25/08/16 04:16, Marty Bluke wrote:
>>> Even if we don't judge chavalos, an important n'mina w be how much should
>>> you pay in order to l'ztais y'dei shamayim.

>> 1. Ad sheyefayes es chavero
>>
>> 2. Nowadays we have more sophisticated methods of determining appropriate
>> compensation...

> Are you saying that the din of the gemara no longer applies because
> we have better ways of determining value? I looked in the Pischei
> Choshen (which is a contemporary sefer on Choshen Mishpat) and he
> still quotes what it says in the Shulchan Aruch as to how to
> determine the nezeq.

As I said, our batei din cannot rule on dinei chavalos anyway. Their only
role today is to set a limit on ad sheyefayes, which I'll bet they are
rarely if ever called on to do. But if a BD is ever asked to do so,
they will immediately run into the problem you pointed out. And the
method used by the courts today will immediately recommend itself; not
only does it work, which the old method doesn't any more, but it's also
superior to the old method, because it's designed for the purpose rather
than adapted from a slightly different use.

They will also run into the more practical problem that the plaintiff
will have taken legal advice, and will have a pretty good idea of what he
could recover at law, should he go there, and will be very reluctant to
settle for less. I'm not even sure if one needs a heter erkaos in such
a case, but if he asks for one the BD would be hard-pressed to refuse it,
so how can they tell him to be mollified by a smaller settlement?

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

V difficult to see how a pareve soup cooked in a fleishigs microwave is
deemed to be a NbN.
It would be permitted to add sour cream to that soup.

A clean BY fleishig pot cover placed on a pareve soup, cooking in a pareve
pot is a nat bar nat (secondary taste) of fleishigs only because there is
an intense cloud of heated steam that connects the P soup to that F pot
cover. And that pot cover was connected via a similar intense cloud of
heated steam to meat.
It is the intense cloud of heated steam that deems the pot cover to be in
contact with the food. However, the steam itself is not F. As is evidenced
in the Pesak permitting hanging meat to dry over the stove on which milk is
being cooked.

As demonstrated in a previous post, the steam in a microwave does not ever
form an intense heated cloud.


Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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why is it not appropriate to see what an investment group would pay
TODAY to own all the future earnings?

So a soccer champion is evaluated - pretty much the way insurance
companies evaluate their policies, and receives his payout in exchange for
all his future earning be they for playing, commentating, endorsing etc.

Nezek is a payment for what has been taken out of the pocket of the
injured fellow. Nezek is not compensation for loss of ftutre earnings,
that is Gerama, he does not yet have that in his pocket.

if the soccer champion loses his ear, the damage is pretty close to zero.
If he loses a leg, he loses the component as a player but can still be
a coach sell endorsements etc. All this will be evaluated and the risks
assessed by the insurance investment company. And there would be a market
and offers and counter offers.

Best,
Meir G. Rabi

(Moderator note: Off topic, but I thought that if we raised the topic,
some warning that it may be dangerous should reach the full Avodah
audience as well. Any arguments by anyone who disagrees with RMR should
go to Areivim. [And knowing this crowd, someone will.] I am only bending
the rules to provide awareness that the issues exist. BTW, I have a
burn on my arm from steam from opening a bag of reheated sausages from
the microwave. 10 days later, still there. Thank G-d, nothing exploded,
though. -micha)


Since microwave ovens do not ever form intense clouds of heated steam,
the walls and ceiling of the oven do not become Milchig or Fleishig;
even if M or F foods are cooked without a cover.

However, boil-overs are V common in microwave ovens.

Therefore, one ought to designate the provided platter/turntable as either
M or F and designate a microwave safe plate of roughly the same size
which simply sits on top of the microwave turntable, for the alternative.

If a F food boils over it will make the turntable F. If afterwards,
a dairy food boils over on the same platter/turntable, the liquid will
act as a medium via which the absorbed flavours will cross transfer and
create BBCh

It is extremely dangerous to enclose any food to be heated in the
microwave. Whole potatoes and egg yolks MUST have their skins pierced.
Microwave ovens have been badly damaged by exploding potatoes and egg
yolks that due to the very rapid and extreme build up of pressure have
exploded.

Water can be heated well in excess of 100C, its usual boiling point,
and this happens in microwaves. You can try, with care, this little
experiment - heat water in a cup in a microwave (some of you may have
already experienced this) and remove it just before it has begun to boil
[may need to try this a couple of times until the you get the timing]. Add
sugar or coffee. The water will erupt like a volcano. There are recorded
injuries due to this phenomenon.

The water is actually hotter than 100C and has not yet been seeded [I
think that is the word used; its what we see when water boils in a pot,
bubbles form at various points where the surface of the pot is scratched]
and when sugar is added to this superheated water it suddenly releases
creating the eruption.

DO NOT EVER enclose foods in closed bags in a microwave oven.

Best,
Meir G. Rabi

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 3:07 AM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> DO NOT EVER enclose foods in closed bags in a microwave oven.
>

(Hopefully this is back on topic in spite of the moderator's warning)

Sakanta hamira me'isura, so does this mean that there is no way to follow
the pesak that requires double wrapping in a microwave oven under various
circumstances? Or is there a middle path whereby the wrapping can be
pierced sufficiently to allow steam to escape and still be considered
well-wrapped enough to prevent NTbNT?
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On 25/08/16 20:28, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> why is it not appropriate to see what an investment group would pay
> TODAY to own all the future earnings?

There is no such market, because once the person has been paid there would
be no way to force him to go on working.  Anyone given such a deal would
immediately retire.  He would have no further reason to work.  If he had
to work he'd be lazy and uncooperative until he got sacked.   Slavery
presents a similar problem, but there are partial solutions.  One can never
get the full value out of a slave, but one can get a large proportion of
his value, and that is built into the market price (which is a flaw in
the method for assessing nezek, but it's the best Chazal could come up with).
But with a free man one could never get anything out of him, so nobody would
ever offer such a contract in the first place.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

I am inclined to disagree with the proposition that Chazal's evaluation for
Nezek, sale at the slave market, is a flawed method for assessing Nezek,
but it's the best Chazal could come up with.

Certainly slaves are lazy, and certainly an injured soccer player who has
been paid out for what he is worth, will also be tempted to be lazy, why
bother? after all he already has his money.

But think about it. The soccer player gets paid for his devaluation from a
two legged soccer player to a one legged soccer player. Lets say thats 20
mill. But that is not his full value. He can still coach, commentate,
endorse, go on lecture tours etc. So he DOES have value and DOES have
potential earning power. Why should he bother working? Ask any Gevir why
they continue working? Ohev Kessef Lo Yisba K. A Gevir would like to die
making money.  I saw a Nusach of Mi SheYesh Lo Mona Rotza ... Rotza LaAsoSo
Masayim. LaAsoso I think means - it is a game he doesnt need it he just
wants to double it. Parker bros Monopoly

So the prob I think is far more pronounced with a potato peeler floor
sweeper slave. They would be lazy. Indeed. So what? Nezek is NOT
COMPENSATION for lost future earning or life pleasure. It is paying for
ACTUAL LOSS that has been taken from the victim. What actual money did the
victim have that he lost? Not more than what the market offers as a slave
WHICH INCLUDES all the risk factors such as health risks, injury risks,
mental welfare risk the risk of him being lazy incompetent unwilling being
depressed and the list goes on.

So Chazal provide a PERFECT method for paying Nezek.

I hasten to add that to gain Mechila, one must pay more. The agrressor must
pay for loss of quality of life, for mental anguish in short there is a
duty to be MeFayess, to mollify the victim.


Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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On 26/08/16 02:32, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
>
> Certainly slaves are lazy, and certainly an injured soccer player who
> has been paid out for what he is worth, will also be tempted to be
> lazy, why bother? after all he already has his money.
>
> But think about it. The soccer player gets paid for his devaluation
> from a two legged soccer player to a one legged soccer player. Lets
> say thats 20 mill. But that is not his full value. He can still
> coach, commentate, endorse, go on lecture tours etc. So he DOES have
> value and DOES have potential earning power. Why should he bother
> working? Ask any Gevir why they continue working?

You misunderstand.  Your proposal hinges on the existence of a market in
people's entire future earnings; that there exist investors who routinely
pay a person a lump sum in return for every penny he will ever make again.
Thus, you suggest, we can consult experts in that market and find out what
sort of lump sum this person could have got before  his injury for such a
deal, and how much he could get now for the same deal, and the mazik will
pay him the difference.  But no such market exists or can exist, because
once a person has sold all his future earnings, he has no reason ever to
earn anything again.


> Nezek is NOT COMPENSATION for lost future earning or life pleasure.

Yes, it is.  The mazik has taken that from the nizak, and must make him
whole.   Why should the nizak bear any of the loss?


> It is paying for ACTUAL LOSS that has been taken from the victim.

Which includes all of that.


> What actual money did the victim have that he lost? Not more than
> what the market offers as a slave WHICH INCLUDES all the risk factors
> such as health risks, injury risks, mental welfare risk the risk of
> him being lazy incompetent unwilling being depressed and the list
> goes on.

But he was *not* a slave, and therefore was not subject to the same risks.
He would have earned far more than a slave identical to him would have
earned, and now he has lost it.   He has also lost pleasure and satisfaction
that are not reflected in a slave's price, because an owner doesn't benefit
from his slaves' pleasure or satisfaction, so he's not willing to pay for
them.  The current methods we have, which do at least attempt to measure
these factors, are therefore superior.


> I hasten to add that to gain Mechila, one must pay more. The
> agrressor must pay for loss of quality of life, for mental anguish in
> short there is a duty to be MeFayess, to mollify the victim.

But this is not so.  If a beis din is called on to set a limit on the
amount one must pay for piyus, they must set it at the same amount as
what a BD would have awarded back then.   That's the whole reason we're
having this discussion in the first place, because that's the only role
a BD of non-musmachim *can* play in dinei chavalos.  I am skeptical that
anyone ever actually calls a BD for this purpose, but if they are called
that is how they must rule. And yet nowadays that is clearly not going
to mollify the nizak, or make him whole, and the BD is going to be hard
pressed to refuse him a heter arkaos, even if he actually needs one,
which I doubt.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis


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