Volume 34: Number 116
Tue, 20 Sep 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 20:24:33 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi
An airline meal which, other than to those living in the third world, is
not a true meal by any stretch of the imagination, is not the benchmark for
defining Halacha.
In the same way that bread we eat today would without question be deemed to
be Mezonos in Talmudic times (and we may similarly reflect - in the reverse
- on soft Matza) as we've added oil and sugar, yet today even raisin
challah is universally accepted as HaMotzi; so too the definition of a
Halachic meal that converts Mezonos to HaMotzi, must reflect what is deemed
to be normal for our eating habits.
Airline meals may be chosen by some even as a Shabbos meal, that's why I
proposed the scenario where everyone else at the table is eating a regular
Shabbos meal.
There are likely many thousands who keep busy work schedules and make a
meal on the go their regular lunch, but that hardly qualifies to set the
standard to define a meal.
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Message: 2
From: Isaac Balbin
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 11:06:59 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] Mezonos rolls, airline meals
From: "Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah" <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
> Anyone who lives in a first world country and thinks that airline food is a
> meal, needs to have their head examined.
>
> Just try serving one of them to your family or yourself at the next Shabbos
> meal.
Shabbos meal has nothing to do with it. Shabbos actually has a Chiyuv
for a better type of meal and one doesnt travel on airplanes on
Shabbos. Airline meals are most definitely a meal, and if and when not
provided, one finds people quite upset not just because they didn't get
what they paid for. Some people pack a Wurst roll just in case. Will
they use "Mezonos Bread" for that roll? I actually pined for airline
meals when returning from India (Hermolis meals) as they were the first
warm thing I ate in two weeks that wasn't out of a suitcase. I didn't say
"Feh". The El Al meals, Mehadrin, are also perfectly okay and acceptable
as are the ones out of Australia. It is most dangerous to make sweeping
subjective statements unless this was an attempt at humour. I also know
many people who have airline meals sent to remote locations where they
will be holidaying.
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Message: 3
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 16:06:51 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] RSRH on Fairy Tales
The following is from RSRH's essay On the Collaboration Between Home and School that appears in Volume VII of the Collected Writings of RSRH.
The mother should be a Chava ["She who speaks," or "Giver of thoughts"]
to her child; she should find her greatest delight in talking with him.
After all, children thoroughly enjoy talking and listening!
Their ears literally "thirst" after words of entertainment
and instruction (Shema "hearing" is simply a spiritual tzama
"thirsting"). The mother should not attempt to satisfy that thirst by
telling her child fairy tales that are insults to the human intelligence
and which, for the most part, have nothing to teach the young. (At the
risk of being accused of pedagogical heresy, let us add here that we
consider fairy tales the worst possible nourishment for a child's mind
and imagination. We must admit we are not clever enough to understand
what good it does to fill the minds of our children with notions
about the world and the things in it that are so completely at odds with
reality, such as the story of the wolf that eats up an old grandmother
and then, sporting the grandmother's nightcap on his head, awaits the
arrival of her granddaughter so that he may devour her also, or the tale
of the mountain of cake through which one must eat his way, and all
the other storybook themes.) Mothers certainly should have no trouble
finding topics fit for their talks with their children. They truly need
no artificiality for this purpose; the whole real world in which their little
ones live, the nursery, the house, the garden, the city and everything
else the children can see actually existing and happening around them,
everything they themselves or their companions do in their everyday
lives should supply ample material which mothers can utilize to help
develop the potential of their children. In this manner, mothers can
play a decisive role in the education of their offspring.
All the skills with which our children are endowed are capable of
further development and are in need of intelligent, encouraging
guidance. You cannot imagine how many children are turned over to
the school with skills that have remained dormant and undeveloped,
or that have already taken a wrong turn due to parental neglect. The
teacher can quickly notice if the right Chava has been missing from the
child's.life, if the child has been left to dream and vegetate on his on his own,
if he spent the most important years of his development under the
influence of what he learned in the servants' quarters.
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Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 09:31:19 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] mezonos rolls
<<If the poskim of the hechsher on those airline meals hold as I've
described, then they are 100% entitled to label the roll as "mezonos", and
it is unfair to accuse them of "misleading" anyone. One might argue that
they *are* misleading people, since the hechsher ought to know that most
people hold differently, but my guess is that they would respond, "We hold
this to be the ikar hadin, and if some - or most - people want to be
machmir, they are entitled to do so." >>
which brings up the question of what is a mehadrim hashgacha if they follow
a minority opinion
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 23:49:13 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mezonos Rolls?
On 16/09/16 06:50, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> My LOR holds that food made from belilah raqa are mezonos, regardless
> of qevi'as se'udah. Unlike cake or crackers.
Most cakes are belila raka.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 6
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 08:29:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mezonos Rolls?
R' Micha Berger posted:
> Somewhat related is R Asher Weiss's pesaq on wraps, which
> just reached the English side of Tvunah (a web site of his
> Torah) <http://en.tvunah.org/2016/09/16/bracha-on-wraps>:
>
> Conclusion:
>> Wraps are eaten in place of bread and Pita to make a
>> sandwich type food. This is commonly eaten as a meal with
>> kvius seuda, hence the wraps retain the status of bread
>> and their bracha is hamotzi.
Is he suggesting that if one ate a wrap by itself as a snack, it would be
mezonos? How it is different than a pita?
> My LOR holds that food made from belilah raqa are mezonos,
> regardless of qevi'as se'udah. Unlike cake or crackers.
Are you saying that cake is made from belilah avah? Every cake I've ever
seen my wife make comes from an easily pourable batter, not anything like a
bread dough.
> Similarly, he holds that cooked dough would never be a
> hamotzi, even if one is qovei'ah se'udah.
> I am wondering if RAW would say that one should make a
> hamotzi for a spaghetti and meatball dinner too.
Is there *anyone* who holds that a cooked dough such as spaghetti would
ever be hamotzi? (To be clear, I am referring to a dough that is cooked but
not baked, which means the entire range of pasta, but excludes bagels which
are baked.)
R' Gershon wrote:
> Rabbi Bodner of Berachos book fame told me that he showed
> various types of wraps to Rav Elyashiv z"l & he said they
> are mezonos EVEN bekvias Seudah
Again, WHY?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 7
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 09:26:27 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] Amah
Rbn Katz wrires
> The largest possible ammah, at 45.7 cm, would be 18 inches, which is the
> number I've always used to translate ammos into modern measurements.
The shiur you use is that of R Chaim Naeh which is widely accepted. It
is far from the largest possible Amah
1. According to Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Amah is 21.25 inches (53.98
centimeters), the Tefach is 3.54 inches (9.00 centimeters), and the
Etzbah is 0.89 inches (2.25 centimeters).
2. According to Rav Chaim Noeh, the Amah is 18.90 inches (48 centimeters),
the Tefach is 3.15 inches (8 centimeters), and the Etzbah is 0.79 inches
(2 centimeters)
3. According to the Chazon Ish, the Amah is 24 inches (60.96 centimeters),
the Tefach is 4 inches (10.16 centimeters), and the Etzbah is 1 inch
(2.54 centimeters).
<http://www.halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Amah>
<http://www.halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Tefach>
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 15:04:41 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] mezonos rolls
On 18/09/16 02:31, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> <<If the poskim of the hechsher on those airline meals hold as I've
> described, then they are 100% entitled to label the roll as "mezonos", and
> it is unfair to accuse them of "misleading" anyone. One might argue that
> they *are* misleading people, since the hechsher ought to know that most
> people hold differently, but my guess is that they would respond, "We hold
> this to be the ikar hadin, and if some - or most - people want to be
> machmir, they are entitled to do so." >>
>
> which brings up the question of what is a mehadrim hashgacha if they
> follow a minority opinion
Who says it's a minority opinion?
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 9
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 16:23:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rav Melamed on metal pots
R' Eli Turkel posted:
> see however the discussion of R. Lior's opinion (and so quotes) at
>
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/26285/blias-in-todays
-pots-and-pans
A poster there gives Rav Lior's original Hebrew, and this translation of it:
> Even according to the opinion of the Rama, who is stringent with
> glass utensils, saying that since they are initially made from
> sand their ruling is like earthenware. But stainless steel
> utensils, that don't hardly absorb anything and are made of
> metal not sand, it is permissible to cook in them meat, to clean
> well and after to cook milk the same day, and the reverse as well.
I'm having trouble understanding this. I perceive a contradiction in the
logic.
On the one hand, glass is viewed as being like earthenware (in other words:
not kasherable) because it is made of sand (i.e., earth), despite the fact
that its properties are very different than earthenware (smooth, meltable,
non-porous).
On the other hand there seems to be a willingness to give a new status to
stainless steel, which is a metal similar to the other metals that halacha
has already discussed. The only thing new and different about stainless
steel is that it MIGHT be less absorbent than other metals.
Why is there a great reluctance to distinguish between earthenware and
glass, while being far less reluctant to distinguish between those metals
and this metal?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 10
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 16:24:31 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Why should one have to make Hataras Nedarim every
See http://tinyurl.com/hhz4a63 Page 2 of 2.
Note the last paragraph says "Behold I make formal declaration before you and I cancel from this time onward all vows, ..
In light of this, why should one have to make Hataras nedarim every year? It seems to me that saying it once should suffice forever.
YL
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Message: 11
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 14:43:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Why should one have to make Hataras Nedarim
On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 04:24:31PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: Note the last paragraph says "Behold I make formal declaration before
: you and I cancel from this time onward all vows,..
: In light of this, why should one have to make Hataras nedarim every
: year? It seems to me that saying it once should suffice forever.
Hararah can't be done lemafreia. It's a nice declaration of intent, but
the paragraph you're quoting isn't legally binding.
Notice that it is said /after/ the beis din was actually matir his
nedarim.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 14:53:11 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The amah and the floor of the Bet HaMikdash
On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 03:00:10AM -0400, Rn Toby Katz via Avodah wrote:
:> The water tunnel is 525m long. The inscription says that it's 1,200...
:> largest possible ammah in late bayis rishon, given the inscription,
:> would be 45.7cm...
: The largest possible ammah, at 45.7 cm, would be 18 inches, which is the
: number I've always used to translate ammos into modern measurements.
My point was that the range usually cited in Ashk circles -- R Chaim Naeh,
RMF and the CI -- has as its *lowest* valid value what is the *largest*
possible value they held like during bayis rishon.
And that's the largest possible. It would mean assuming the Water
Tunnel is only 1,150 amos and they chose to round that to the nearest
100. Possible, but not overly likely.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 15:02:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Wraps
On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 08:29:43AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Gershon wrote:
: > Rabbi Bodner of Berachos book fame told me that he showed
: > various types of wraps to Rav Elyashiv z"l & he said they
: > are mezonos EVEN bekvias Seudah
:
: Again, WHY?
Hear RYSE for yourself https://youtu.be/tpuWjf5oiZs
I must confess, I couldn't make out the answer. The "doobly-do" with
video reads:
> R Elyashiv Paskens Paskens that wraps do not have Torisah Denahama. The
> Halacha is therefore that one should make a Mezonos no matter how much
> is eaten.
So it's beyond just being a pourable belilah raka, it's that the result
never takes on a bread-like appearance because of it.
I am sorry that my previous error just confused.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507 that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger
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