Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 119

Fri, 23 Sep 2016

• 1. Re: Kissing Holy Texts in Unholy volumes (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi (Isaac Balbin)
• 3. Re: Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi (Isaac Balbin)
• 5. Why should one have to make Hataras Nedarim every year (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: KeViAs Seudah, MeZonos HaMotzi (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 7. KeViAs Seudah, MeZonos HaMotzi (Marty Bluke)
• 8. Re: KeViAs Seudah, MeZonos HaMotzi (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 9. Re: KeViAs Seudah, MeZonos HaMotzi (Marty Bluke)
• 10. Re: whole wheat challah (Marty Bluke)
• 11. Re: Reliability of the Mesorah (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Reliability of the Mesorah (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: KeViAs Seudah, MeZonos HaMotzi (Akiva Miller)

On 21/09/16 22:31, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> It is true that we would likely not kiss and show honour to a
> 1000-page encyclopaedia volume that included a bencher or siddur
> HOWEVER the question was asked I suspect with great care - When I
> finish bentshing off my phone should I kiss the phone BEFORE CLOSING
> THAT SCREEN?>
>
> Kissing that screen is like kissing THAT page in the 1000-page encyclopaedia

The question was not about kissing the screen being displayed; it's
not tangible and can't be kissed.  The question was about kissing the
*phone*, which has no more connection with the bencher displayed on it
than the cover of the encyclopaedia has with the bencher it contains.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

RMB wrote:
> How did hamotzi come
> to be applied to loaf shaped breads altogether, since they aren't used
> to scoop up lefes. 

I'm not sure I follow. Where is your source that bread must function as
a scoop tool to be bread. I've certainly seen Tshuvos where the question
of herring on a piece of bread is a question. What's more important,
the herring or the bread. Depends on the person? They didn't use herring
in Sefardi countries and of course German Jews saw herring as the poor
Polish/Russian food.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 03:28:17PM +1000, Isaac Balbin wrote:
: I'm not sure I follow. Where is your source that bread must function
: as a scoop tool to be bread. I've certainly seen Tshuvos where the
: question of herring on a piece of bread is a question...

You're skipping WAY ahead in history. I am talking about how people ate
when Chazal set up the idea of kevi'as se'udah.

As a matter of historical fact, in Chazal's mileau, kevi'as se'udah on
bread was very literally true. That's how people ate. And when you read
the gemaros with that cultural awareness, you see how in these sugyos,
they are referring to that style of eating; such as when they refer to
hamotzi and bentching covering lefes and not demanding separate berakhos.

Yes, herring on challah would be lefes. And, as I noted, a sandwitch is
pretty similar as well.

But a typical Ashkenazi Shabbos meal, and for that matter for most
Sepharadim today, we do not use bread in a manner nearly as central to
the meal as Chazal were taking for granted.

I did not assert that bread MUST function as a scoop; I ASKED how we
knew this was not the criterion in question. Given that Chazal take it
for granted.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The meaning of life is to find your gift.
mi...@aishdas.org        The purpose of life
http://www.aishdas.org   is to give it away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Pablo Picasso

On 22 Sep. 2016, at 7:46 pm, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> You're skipping WAY ahead in history. I am talking about how people ate
> when Chazal set up the idea of kevi'as se'udah.

> As a matter of historical fact, in Chazal's mileau, kevi'as se'udah on
> bread was very literally true. That's how people ate. And when you read
> the gemaros with that cultural awareness, you see how in these sugyos,
> they are referring to that style of eating; such as when they refer to
> hamotzi and bentching covering lefes and not demanding separate berakhos.
...

This does not gel nicely with the Halachos of Pas Akum/Palter. As I
recall everyone who discusses these Dinim talks of bread as a STAPLE
eg how long/far does one wait/go before consuming Pas Palter. Indeed,
it is ironic that when the Gezera was first made it was not accepted
because of the importance of bread to their diet. The irony is that they
tell you to stay away from carbs like bread if you want to lose weight. I
guess though that supports the notion. Granted meat was in short supply
and expensive at times, but potatoes and the like would have been there.

As an aside I saw in the sefer of customs of Rav Elyashiv that in his shul
he sat with 2 other talmidim and were matir neder for the entire
congregation. Then the 3 got up and another 3 talmidim were matir neder for
R Elyashiv and the other two

--------------------------------------------------------


married the invitation listed his mother's name (Musha) . In some circles
today It its only Rabbi and Mrs.  X and the mother's own name is never
listed. I saw also the same thing in the wedding invitation of Rav Chaim
Brisk for his son.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 23 Sep 2016 1:39 PM, "Marty Bluke" <marty.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And yet the poskim that I am familiar with are mechayev that kind of meal
> in Succa. The generally accepted psak is that you can't eat any mezonos out
> of the succa.

Yes, we're required to eat even small amounts of Mezonos in the Sukkah but
remember that's without a Beracha.

It is astonishing that any Posek would require eating even tiny amounts of
Mezonos in the Sukkah.

Also, although sleeping is ALWAYS KaVuAh, nevertheless no Beracha is made
even when sleeping the night.

R' Meir Rabi writes:
> A hurried everyday lunch and a standard hurried breakfast, does not
> constitute TKTd because its not, *what we usually do* but what we perceive
> as respectable living, that defines TKTd.

And yet the poskim that I am familiar with are mechayev that kind of
meal in Succa. The generally accepted psak is that you can't eat any
mezonos out of the succa.

On Friday, September 23, 2016, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi <meir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is astonishing that any Posek would require eating even tiny amounts of
> Mezonos in the Sukkah.

I meant more then a kzayis.


R' Akiva Miller wrote:
> But there is another concept also, that bread is the ikar because it is the
> king of all foods.

There is no question that at the time of Chazal and until recently bread
was the king of all foods. But that has changed. In today's world bread
is in no way shape or form the king of foods anymore. As someone pointed
out many fancy restaurants don't even serve bread any more.

Therefore we have 2 choices. We can say that since Chazal were kovea the
berachos this way that doesn't change even though society changed, like
by tereifos and other halachos. Or maybe we should say that since society
changed hilchos berachos should change as well. Not change in the sense
of the Halacha actually changing but change in the application. As RHS
says, it used to be that sif 1 applied based on the circumstances now
that circumstances changed sif 2 applies.

On 23 Sep 2016 2:13 PM, "Marty Bluke" <marty.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It is astonishing that any Posek would require eating even tiny amounts
>> of Mezonos in the Sukkah.

> I meant more then a kzayis.

I meant, LeiShev BaSukkah

On Friday, September 23, 2016, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi <meir...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I meant, LeiShev BaSukka
>
And so did I. The minhag that I remember in America is when you visit
someone on succos they give you cake to make a leishev basucca.
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R' Eli Turkel asked
> I note in my shul that it is becoming more common to see light blue or even
> striped shirts on shabbat. Again how much of this dress wear in time
> dependent?"

Of course it is completely time dependent, Did Chazal wear white shirts?
No one even 200 years ago wore suits white shirts and ties on shabbos.
In fact even 100 years ago the typical Lithuanian yeshiva bachur dressed
differently then today (just look at Professor Levine's pictures) and
would not be recognized as a yeshiva bachur today.

On 22/09/16 10:31, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>>From <http://j.mp/2dmtibe>
>>(compressed from http://www.independent.co.u
>>k...)
> the Independent (UK) tech column, with AP material folded in, about
> what it took to be able to read a copy of Vayiqra from the bayis sheini
> era. And not from some group of minim in the desert, but in use, in a shul.
>
> To jump to the point "100% identical", "This is quite amazing for us," [Dr
> Emmanuel Tov, Hebrew U] said. "In 2,000 years, this text has not changed."

What is the fragment in the picture, though?  I can't make head or tail
of it, and it certainly doesn't look to me like any part of Vayikra.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 11:31:45AM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: From <http://j.mp/2dmtibe>
: (compressed from http://www.independent.co.uk...)<
: /a>
: the Independent (UK) tech column, with AP material folded in, about
: what it took to be able to read a copy of Vayiqra from the bayis sheini
: era. And not from some group of minim in the desert, but in use, in a shul.

The NY Times provided more info
<http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/science/ancient-sea-scrolls-bible.ht
ml>
(and has a photo).

    Modern Technology Unlocks Secrets of a Damaged Biblical Scroll
    By NICHOLAS WADESEPT. 21, 2016
    ...
    The scroll's content, the first two chapters of the Book of Leviticus,
    has consonant... that are identical to those of the Masoretic text,
    the authoritative version of the Hebrew Bible...

    The Dead Sea scrolls, those found at Qumran and elsewhere around the
    Dead Sea, contain versions quite similar to the Masoretic text but with
    many small differences. The text in the scroll found at the En-Gedi
    excavation site in Israel decades ago has none, according to
    Emanuel Tov, an expert on the Dead Sea scrolls at the Hebrew University
    of Jerusalem.
    ...
    The date of the En-Gedi scroll is the subject of conflicting evidence.
    A carbon-14 measurement indicates that the scroll was copied around
    A.D. 300. But the style of the ancient script suggests a date nearer to
    A.D. 100. "We may safely date this scroll" to between A.D. 50 and 100,
    wrote Ada Yardeni, an expert on Hebrew paleography, in an article in
    the journal Textus. Dr. Tov said he was "inclined toward a
    first-century date, based on paleography."
    ...
    "It doesn't tell us what was the original text, only that the Masoretic
    text is a very ancient text in all of its details," Dr. Segal said.
    "And we now have evidence that this text was being used from a very
    early date by Jews in the land of Israel."

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

In the thread "Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi", I asked if any authorities specify
the kind of meal that is intended in the phrase "mezonos becomes hamotzi
when it is eaten as a meal", and I quoted some of what the Mishneh Berurah
writes in the context of Sukkah. R' Meir G. Rabi responded:

> The Mitzvah of Sukkah is defined by Teshvu KeEin TaDuru [TKTd]
> Its not the size of the meal nor the time quantity of any
> activity that defines what must be performed in the Sukkah. It
> is the perceived quality of that activity that makes TKTd.
>
> A hurried everyday lunch and a standard hurried breakfast, does
> not constitute TKTd because its not, *what we usually do* but
> what we perceive as respectable living, that defines TKTd.
>
> As R Akivah Miller said, the nature of the situation of "Pas
> Habaa B'Kisnin in the morning" constitutes Kevias Seudah for
> Hilchos Sukkah. I suggest this is not a hurried bite, but a
> proper unhurried meal for that time and place.

Hilchos Sukkah can shine much light on other suedah-related halachos. The
end of MB 639:16 quotes the Shaarei Teshuva, and he writes:

"On Shabbos and Yom Tov in the morning, when one makes Kiddush and eats Pas
Kisnin in place of the meal, ... all opinions allow saying Layshev
Basukkah. Since he is eating it to meet the legal requirements of a seudah
because of Kiddush, it's okay to say the bracha on the sukkah, because his
thoughts make it into "keva". During Chol [Hamoed], it is not appropriate
to say the bracha because of Safek Brachos L'hakel, but the Minhag HaOlam
is to say the bracha even during Chol [Hamoed]. In order to rescue oneself
from this possible Bracha L'vatala, one should make sure NOT to exit [the
sukkah] immediately after eating. Rather, he should sit there for some
time, and when he says the bracha of Layshev Basukkah, he should have in
mind both the eating and the sitting afterward."

This is quite similar to what RMGR wrote. It is unavoidably clear that a
hurried meal differs from a relaxed meal for TKTd.

On the other hand, that's only for Mezonos. As I read the MB, if the meal
is Hamotzi, then it does *not* matter whether it is hurried or relaxed.
Please carefully read MB 639:15, where he compares the two:

"If one is kovea on Mezonos, that is to say, he eats with a group, or he
eats a significant amount such as one makes a seudah of, and he is not
merely eating "a little more than a kebaytzah", [then it has to be in the
Sukkah -Mechaber]. However, see the Magen Avraham who questions this, and
his opinion is that it is exactly like bread, where a little more than a
kebaytzah obligates one in sukkah. But for saying the bracha of Layshev
Basukkah, the acharonim hold that one should not say the bracha unless he
is being kovea as written in Shulchan Aruch."

(By the way, the Mechaber here refers to two types of grain products as
"pas" and "tavshil". One might think that "tavshil" refers to only to
cooked foods like oatmeal or pasta, and that Pas Habaa B'kisnin would
either be included in "pas", or maybe it is a third category. However,
nothing I have seen suggests that there is a third category in Hilchos
Sukkah, and everything suggests that for Hilchos Sukkah, pas habaa b'kisnin
is exactly the same as oatmeal. Thus, while their vernacular was to label
these two categories as "pas" and "tavshil", those categories exactly match
to what our vernacular labels as "hamotzi" and "mezonos".)

Okay, enough with Hilchos Sukkah, let's get back to hilchos brachos.

Beur Halacha on this spot ("Im kovea alav, chashiv keva") compares Sukkah
to "mezonos becoming hamotzi". He writes that the determining criterion for
Sukkah is TKTd, and that this is very subjective: "Whatever HE is kovea on,
that's a kevius that needs a sukkah." But he refers us to Siman 168, where
this is *not* the rule for brachos. Rather, if one eats pas habaa b'kisnin
of an amount that PEOPLE are kovea on, that's when it becomes Hamotzi.

Therefore, we CANNOT use TKTd to enlighten us about mezonos becoming
hamotzi. We must determine how people in general consider it. And I don't
know if modern authorities have discussed this.

My personal opinion is that I usually eat three meals every day. Many of
those meals are pretty small, but if I consider myself to be a "three meal
per day" person, then I am implicitly defining "meal" to include small
meals. For reasons that are unclear even to me, I tend to draw the line
between "small meal" and "large snack" by the time of day. Many people will
say mezonos on a single slice of pizza, and hamotzi on three slices, and
they avoid eating two slices. I was once discussing this with someone, and
he said that if he ate two slices at noon he'd want to say hamotzi, and
that the same two slices at 3pm would be mezonos. I don't know if he ever
acted thusly, but my sentiments are the same.

It seems that RMGR would NOT consider me to be a "three meal per day"
person, and he is entitled to that opinion. I think it would be very nice
if we lived in a world where most people ate three "proper unhurried meals"
(as RMGR described them), but I think it is mostly aristocrats who live in
that world.

Or maybe I am looking at this too harshly. Do most meals in a fast-food
restaurant count as a  "quick bite", or are they sufficiently "proper and
unhurried"? I don't know. I have vague memories of a sefer that claimed
that Birkas HaMazon would not be d'Oraisa if one did not have some sort of
drink at the meal, because without the drink there is no "v'savata". I
can't help wonder if that is relevant to our subject. Suppose someone ate
the AMOUNT of Pas Habaa B'Kinsnin that would usually count as a meal, but
he ate it standing, without a table, and with no drink. This could easily
happen if someone had 3-4 slices of pizza at a shopping mall. Might it
still be mezonos?

Akiva Miller
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