Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 123

Wed, 05 Oct 2016

• 1. Re: Rav Melamed on Metal Pots (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi (Micha Berger)
• 3. the bologna sefer torah (saul newman)
• 4. Whole Wheat Challah (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Whole Wheat Challah (Toby Katz)
• 6. Re: Rav Melamed on Metal Pots (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: workers righs (Akiva Miller)
• 8. N'kom L'aynaynu (Akiva Miller)
• 9. Tzom Kal (Cantor Wolberg)
• 10. Re: Tzom Kal (Micha Berger)
• 11. Are "Hashem" and "Elokaynu" valid Shaymos? (Akiva Miller)
• 12. Re: Tzom Kal (Ben Waxman)
• 13. Re: N'kom L'aynaynu (Micha Berger)
• 14. Purim and Maavirin es Roa haGezeirah (Micha Berger)

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 08:12:08PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
:> And the routine use of soap to clean pots is also new.

: How is that relevant?

Less remains in cracks. Thus, less beli'ah.

And besides, one can make nosein ta'am lifgam arguments.

I think the smoothness of rolled metal is a bigger issue than which metal
we're using (cast iron vs stainless). And soap.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 06:08:10AM -0400, R Akiva Miller replied to
R Marty Bluke:
:> The Aruch Hashulchan writes that there are 2 distinct reasons
:> why hamotzi exempts other foods from a beracha:
:> 1. The food is tafel to the bread
:> 2. Hamotzi paturs any food that is coming to fill you up
:> He doesn't explain why this should be so he just states it as
:> a fact, can someone explain the sevara behind this?

: I have heard some claim that the word "lechem" can mean "food" in a very
: broad sense...
: I don't know how true any of the above is, but if it *is* accurate, then I
: think it would explain this Aruch Hashulchan, because all food is "lechem",
: even if there's no bread around for the other food to be tafel to.

But haMotzi lekhem min ha'aretz still would only cover food made from gedulei
qarqa, no?

I believe the other RMB is paraphrasing AhS 177:1 <http://j.mp/2dwijgU>.
That is where my bewilderment started. He says that it covers
1- Food that is is normal to be qoveia se'udah on, lelafeis bahem es
haps; and
2- ve'afilu okhlim belo pas, because of iqar and tafeil.

I guess you could recast my question to asking what the maqor is for #2.
Apparently the MB and AhS (*) wondered about the sevara as well, and
offered their opinions.

The AhS says it's implied from Tosafos (Berakhos 41a, "hilkhita"),
who do note that Rashi speaks of lelafeis in terms of iqar and tafeil --
aand then asks questions about it to end up concluding that what the
gemara is including beyond lelafeis and normal iqar and tafeil is to
extend tefeilus beyond lelafeis.

As the AhS says: vedo"q.

(* In chronological order. While RYME started writing AhS first, he started
with CM. The MB was written before AhS OC, and is in fact cited in it.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

https://
www.academia.edu/26456007/The_Rediscovery_of_the_most_ancient_entire_Sefer_
Torah_at_the_Bologna_University_Library_12_th_century_A_Rare_Witness_of_the
_Masoretic_Babylonian_Graphic_and_Textual_Tradition
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At 06:45 AM 9/30/2016, R. Micha wrote:
> Historically, dark bread was considered inferior. Thus, unlike fashions
> in clothing or table-cloth colors, there are actual pesaqim against
> using dark, coarse, bread.

> I don't think anyone holds they still apply mei'iqar hadin, now that many
> consider whole wheat bread superior to white. But RMF['s]... objection
> was that the difference in health benefit was insufficient reason to
> use aesthetically inferior bread.

One can buy white whole wheat flour and bake challah or bread with it 
and one cannot tell that it is whole wheat.

YL 

In a message dated 9/30/2016 11:04am EDT larry62...@optonline.net writes:
> One can buy white whole wheat flour and bake challah or bread with it and 
> one cannot tell that it is whole wheat.

White whole wheat flour?  That goes  against the grain.

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> And the routine use of soap to clean pots is also new.
I asked:
> How is that relevant?

and now R' Micha responds:

> Less remains in cracks. Thus, less beli'ah.
> And besides, one can make nosein ta'am lifgam arguments.
> I think the smoothness of rolled metal is a bigger issue than which
> metal we're using (cast iron vs stainless). And soap.

If we were talking about a b'dieved situation, where one already used a
keli for the other gender, then I would understand how these factors are
relevant, because the less mamashus is present, then the greater the chance
that we have shishim against it.

But I thought this conversation is about l'chatchilah, that Rav Melamed and
others feel that stainless steel should be interchangeable, the way some
act with glass. If so, then I repeat that I do not see how smoothness and
soap are relevant.

I perceive a logic problem in the line "Less remains in cracks. Thus, less
beli'ah." The word "less" usually means "smaller but non-zero", in other
words, there IS some mamashus present. But the word "beli'ah" refers
specifically to ta'am, and if any mamashus is present, then hagala is not
effective. And a mere washing would certainly be ineffective.

In other words: If you tell me that a certain material doesn't need to be
kashered because its nature is such that it doesn't absorb ta'am, then I
will wonder how you made that determination, but at least there's nothing
contradictory or otherwise illogical about the claim. But if you tell me
that a certain material doesn't need to be kashered because it is smooth
and can be cleaned easily, then you just aren't making sense: Cleaning the
mamashus from a keli does nothing to remove the beli'ah from it, and being
smooth simply means that it is easy to clean.

CONFESSION and REQUEST: I freely admit that I've never learned these
halachos deeply as they should be learned. This entire post is based on
this balabos's weak understanding. If you can correct any of the claims I
made above, please enlighten me.

Akiva Miller
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R' Eli Turkel asked:

> I am learning the gemara towards the end of BM that there is a mitzvah
> to pay workers on time.
> The CC states that since the gemara elsewhere states that wages are due
> only at the end for the mitzvah one should not pay ahead of time. Thus
> for example R Zilberstein deals with question of sherut taxis ... - it
> is not clear the taxi drivers will agree to this solution)
> Two questions ...

From this tiny snippet, I can only guess what the CC's reasoning might have
been, and that guess is along the lines of "It is better to be a m'tzuveh
v'oseh, but if you pay before the wages are due then you'll be merely an
aino m'tzuveh v'oseh."

While this logic may be valid technically, it is hard for me to imagine
that the Chofetz Chaim would advise us to do a mitzvah in a way that gives
the employer more s'char, rather than doing it in the way that the employee
prefers.

Can you cite the location where the CC said that?

Akiva Miller
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Near the end of the list of Avinu Malkenu, we find "... n'kom l'aynaynu
nikmas dam avadecha hashafuch."

Praying that Hashem should avenge the spilled blood of His servants is a
very reasonable request, especially in the context of the lines before and
after that one. But I am a bit surprised by the inclusion of the word
"l'aynanu". It is sort of "dayenu" in reverse: It's not enough to ask Him
to take vengeance; we also ask that you and I should be around to see it
happen.

In my experience, most of the tefilos that have been canonized in the
Siddur and Machzor are for major requests. This one seems almost trivial.
If anyone wants to request such a thing, they can include it in their
personal tefilos, and I'm sure many of us do. But to include it in the
Siddur and Machzor? Granted that it is just one single word, but it was
enough to catch my attention.

Are there other examples of something similar? Or maybe this request is
more significant than I realize?

Akiva Miller
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An elderly Jewish man, Sam Cohen, 87 years of age, was told by his physician that it would be dangerous
for him to fast on Yom Kippur. He informed his wife that he didn?t care what his doctor said and
that he never missed a fast since his bar-mitzvah and he was going to start now. His distraught wife
called their rabbi who came to visit Sam. He told Sam that Jewish Law mandates he not fast on Yom Kippur.
Stubborn Sam told the rabbi that he always fasted and he wasn?t going to stop this year. The rabbi?s response
is one that could never be forgotten. He said, ?Sam, you?re an idolater,? to which Sam angrily replied,?What do
you mean, rabbi?! I?m willing to sacrifice my life for Yom Kippur!? ?Exactly,? said the rabbi. You?re worshipping 
Yom Kippur, not the Almighty, Who has commanded you not fast if there is a danger to your health.?

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 09:30:56AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: An elderly Jewish man, Sam Cohen, 87 years of age...
: ... [The Rabbi] said, "Sam, you're an idolater," to which Sam angrily
: replied,"What do you mean, rabbi?! I'm willing to sacrifice my life for
: Yom Kippur!" "Exactly," said the rabbi. You're worshipping Yom Kippur,
: not the Almighty, Who has commanded you not fast if there is a danger
: to your health."

Generally I tell people to post their jokes to Areivim. However, I held
on to this post because it gave me an excuse to share thoughts from R'
Hirsch Meisels of Friends with Diabetes, who spent much of the Fall '03
newsletter trying to convince diabetics who were told by their doctors
to eat on Yom Kippur that eating is indeed the holier choice.

See http://www.friendswithdiabetes.org/files/pdf/tishrei57641.pdf

As he writes in the opening letter from the editor:

    At R Chaim Brisker ones expressed himself, "A mohel never felt
    annoyance at having to perform a circumcision on Shabbos. He is
    happy to do what the Torah demands, and those who are required
    to eat on Yom Kippur must have the same perspective.

Among many other citations and arguments, R' Mesels also tells a
non-humorous version of this story:
    An ill person was advised not to fact on Yom Kippur, both by his
    doctor and by the venerable R Yaakov Kamenecki. He chose to fast
    anyway, thereby causing his condition to deteriorate until it
    led to his death. Rav Yaakov then refused to eulogize the
    deceased, stating that he had committed suicide.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

When I began writing this post, the subject line was going to mention Rosh
Hashana. But as I wrote and developed my thoughts, I realized that my
question is not really specific to RH, but is rather about the status of
the proper noun "Hashem". To avoid ambiguity, I am referring to the
two-syllable "Hashem", and not to the three-syllable "Ado---". In this
post, spellings and pronunciations and abbreviations are important, so I am
trying to keep everything as close to the original as possible.

Over Yom Tov, I was speaking with someone about the exact words to use for
the Yehi Ratzons on the various simanim that are eaten on Rosh Hashana
night. At first, he said that he does not say the Shaymos, but then he
clarified his position, and said that his practice is to begin each with
"Yehi ratzon milfanecha Hashem Elokaynu vAylokay avosaynu..." He said that
those are the actual words he uses: "Hashem" and not "Ado---", and the
other with a Kuf and not a Heh.

I know that some machzorim do omit the shaymos, but most include them, so I
did a bit of research, and then I showed him these two sources:

1) Mechaber 583:1 says that when eating the rubia on RH night, one says <
YH"R sheyirbu zechuyosaynu. >

2) Mishneh Berurah 583:2 cites "Beis Yosef and other poskim", that the full
text is < Yehi ratzon milfanecha D' EV"A sheyirbu zechuyosaynu. >

I thought that this Mishne Brurah was clear evidence that the shaymos
should be pronounced properly, but he was not convinced, and pointed to the
Mishneh Brurah's use of the abbreviations as ambiguous.

I was flabbergasted, and decided to turn to the chevreh for your thoughts
and comments. I cannot image why someone would pronounce "Elokaynu" - with
a Kuf - in a sincere tefilla. I can easily see using it in zemiros, if one
is merely engaged in a Shabbos singalong and not a prayer. But I would hope
and assume that those who are eating the simanim on RH night are doing so
with a heartfelt prayer (as advised in the Mishna Brura that I referred to).

In fact, I'd go even farther, and suggest that when someone says
"Elokaynu", the action of replacing the Heh with a Kuf is "m'galeh daato" -
it explicitly reveals that his kavana was to *avoid* saying a Shem, and
that he is *not* saying a prayer. (It would be equivalent to telling
someone "Tonight is the Nth day of Sefiras Haomer" with specific kavana NOT
to be yotzay, so that he can count again later with a bracha.)

But I must admit that I don't know if the same applies to the two-syllable
"Hashem". One could argue that "Hashem" is not a real word in standard
English, and therefore not a valid Shem for brachos, but that it *is* a
real word in the dialect known as "Yeshivish", and that it therefore *is* a
valid Shem is such contexts.

I perceive a Catch-22, and I'd like comments on it. On the one hand, if one
says "Hashem" and "Elokaynu" to avoid saying it the correct way, doesn't
that make a farce of the whole minhag? And on the other hand, if one argues
that "Hashem" and "Elokaynu" ARE valid Shaymos, then what is gained by
pronouncing them that way?

Akiva Miller

After writing the above, I looked at the Beis Yosef that the Mishne Brurah
had referred to. It is in siman 583, "Umah shekasav Rubia". It is
interesting to note that (in my edition) he uses a different abbreviation
than the Mishne Brurah used, namely: < YRM"Y EV"A > One could argue that
the Mishna Brurah's use of a Dalet suggests that indeed one might say the
two-syllable "Hashem", but it is pretty obvious to me that the Beis Yosef's
use of a Yud refers to the three-syllable "Ado---".
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 From my  own experience, I can state flat out that serving in Zahal on 
Shabbat never bothered me. We were involved in operational duties that 
provided real security to all residents. Having to drive or speak on the 
radio or whatever was simply part of that job.

Ben

On 10/5/2016 5:25 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
  > As he writes in the opening letter from the editor:
  >
  >     At R Chaim Brisker ones expressed himself, "A mohel never felt
  >     annoyance at having to perform a circumcision on Shabbos. He is
  >     happy to do what the Torah demands, and those who are required
  >     to eat on Yom Kippur must have the same perspective.

On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 10:18:45PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Near the end of the list of Avinu Malkenu, we find "... n'kom l'aynaynu
: nikmas dam avadecha hashafuch."
: 
: Praying that Hashem should avenge the spilled blood of His servants is a
: very reasonable request, especially in the context of the lines before and
: after that one. But I am a bit surprised by the inclusion of the word
: "l'aynanu"...

I think it's that we're more concerned that the world see that yeish
din veyeish Dayan than we have some need for the wicked people to get
theirs. All, as long as they stop doing bad to us, why should we care?

GCT!
-Micha

A thought struck me about the difference between Achashveirosh's
insistance that anything written besheim hamelekh, and sealed betaba'as
hamelekh, ein hashiv OT1H, and uteshuvah, utefillah, utzedaqah ma'avirin
es roa' hagezeira, on the other.

Especially given the idea that any reference to hamelekh (or perhaps only
hamelekh without "Achashveirosh") refers on a second level to haMelekh.

But then I realized that "ma'avirin es roa' hegezeirah" doesn't promise
a repeal of the gezeirah. Rather, the gezeirah comes to pass, but one
passes through (avoids? is sheileded from?) the tragic aspect of it.

And that is indeed what ended up happening on Purim. Haman's decree
was never repealed, but our fate was still reversed.

Fate is never inescapable -- ein mazalos beYisrael.

Viyhi Ratzon that the same should be true if any gezeiros ra'os exist
(ch"v) on Yom haKi-purim...

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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